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siccmade

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#1

About shaving

12-22-2002, 03:16 PM

Look how easy it is. This is from the Thumbs4Ever Newsletter

"
We do have our own pay/membership site and one of the
options in the script is .........
paying you the webmaster for only 1 recurring even if the
member stays for 24 months so you would loose 23 times the
recurring amount !
Anybody who has paysites/membershipsites has to agree with this
but nobody will LOL
check this out :

DEFAULT GROUP: MAIN
All partner programs have one default group called MAIN. Please enter values for it below.
Maximum Rebills
Example: If you enter 2, then your partner would receive their payment the
1st and 2nd time a customer is rebilled, but not after that.

SHAVING !!!!!

it is easy LOL
WE DO NOT DO THIS, I know it is easy said, but .........
it is true and you can check it, if you sign-up with us
you will receive more then 2 or 3 recurrings ( we hope LOL )

Anyway shaving is happening and since the small/smaller
paysite/membershipsite owners cannot pay the amount that the
bigger companies pay you should ask yourself what makes more
money.
Suppose you get paid 60 dollars for a trial membership, even wondered
how that is possible ?
well it is easy, the answer is .......... SHAVING !

"

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Undutchable

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#2

12-22-2002, 03:20 PM

Wow! Pretty shocking if you ask me. Didn't think it'd be this widespread
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kenny

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#3

12-22-2002, 03:20 PM

We all know that shaving is being praticed, its only a matter of time before someone obtains solid proof and starts a law suite, wins, and then regulations for internet companies will fall in place

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#4

12-22-2002, 03:21 PM

Yep.

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BluMedia

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#5

12-22-2002, 03:33 PM

Can't wait until that day comes, all this shaving is ridiculous.

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Morgan

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#6

12-22-2002, 03:36 PM

If you set the "maximum rebills" variable to "2", wouldn't that just cancel the surfers account after 2 rebills? It says "rebills" not "payouts".

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Kick Ass Chat

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#7

12-22-2002, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by BluMedia
Can't wait until that day comes, all this shaving is ridiculous.

When the day does come, what will happen is 2 things. The big sponsors will be forced to Lower the payouts, and 2 it will be a good time to send your traffic to you OWN sites.

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galleryseek

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#8

12-22-2002, 03:44 PM

i'm about to launch a program... not quite ready yet, hopefully within a week or 2. but there'll definately be 0% shaving with us. www.shaveless.com is the site
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FreeXXX

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#9

12-22-2002, 03:50 PM

Shaving is like jerking off:

There are people who do it and
People who don't admit that they do it...
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Kimmykim

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#10

12-22-2002, 03:52 PM

Y'all get way too hyped up about shaving. It doesn't matter. Nope, it doesn't.

If you send the same amount of hits to two sponsors, then the one that pays you the most (provided they both have the same payout schedule) is the one you should send your traffic to.

Conversions, payout amounts, none of that matters. Your bank teller can assure you of that, try and cash some stats.
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jimmyf

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#11

12-22-2002, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Undutchable
Wow! Pretty shocking if you ask me. Didn't think it'd be this widespread

I did.. And it's been going on for a looooooong time.

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jimmy3way

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#12

12-22-2002, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Conversions, payout amounts, none of that matters. Your bank teller can assure you of that, try and cash some stats.

Yep, one of my favorite porno proverbs: You can't cash a ratio.

Just about everybody shaves in some way. Even those that definitely don't do it, if you ask them in the right way, after about a zillion drinks, they'll admit that no they don't shave, they don't even try BUT yes they get more sign ups than they make pay outs.

It's the paysite owner's loophole, LOL.

On the other hand some people are fucking shitbag crooks who steal your sign ups to pay for their houses, boats, Ferraris, big flashy AVN ads, expensive parties, etc.

There's nothing you can do about it except NOT send them your traffic.

So I say: go to Vegas, go to the parties and make sure and get your fill of food and booze, and make sure to swipe a few bottles as travellers, cos you paid for it.

One thing, I forgot this last detail: the Biz Markie will always prevail.
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Morgan

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#13

12-22-2002, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by FreeXXX
Shaving is like jerking off:

There are people who do it and
People who don't admit that they do it...

Hehe, kinda funny. Although, I am about to launch the first of my paysites and I have no intention of shaving. I have friends with paysites who I know for a fact dont shave. They are doing just fine. Although they dont (nor will I) pay per signup. Maybe later but not off the bat.

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jimmyf

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#14

12-22-2002, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Y'all get way too hyped up about shaving. It doesn't matter. Nope, it doesn't.

If you send the same amount of hits to two sponsors, then the one that pays you the most (provided they both have the same payout schedule) is the one you should send your traffic to.

Conversions, payout amounts, none of that matters. Your bank teller can assure you of that, try and cash some stats.

It's just not right and It's dis-honest.

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nocostporn

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#15

12-22-2002, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Y'all get way too hyped up about shaving. It doesn't matter. Nope, it doesn't.

If you send the same amount of hits to two sponsors, then the one that pays you the most (provided they both have the same payout schedule) is the one you should send your traffic to.

Conversions, payout amounts, none of that matters. Your bank teller can assure you of that, try and cash some stats.

if both programs were shaving and program A was earning you more than program B...wouldnt it cross your mind as to think "HEY what if program A wasnt shaving me?"... stealing is stealing,it doesnt matter who steals more

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Webby

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#16

12-22-2002, 04:06 PM

siccmade:

*Anyway shaving is happening and since the small/smaller
paysite/membershipsite owners cannot pay the amount that the
bigger companies pay you should ask yourself what makes more
money.
Suppose you get paid 60 dollars for a trial membership, even wondered how that is possible ?
well it is easy, the answer is .......... SHAVING ! *

Ya kinda hit the nail on the head! A paysite charging memberships $20 and operating some "60% payouts" under an affliate program won't make em too rich ( there are exceptions, but the days of "Amateur Hardcore" have long gone).
On double that member rate.. say 39.95 - "generally" it is financially necessary for a sponsor to charge this else they will just disappear in oblivion. For some, even at $40, they can't cut it and the "shaving script" has an increased percentage entered into the parameters.

Of course they shave! .. There *may* be many straight sponsors out there, but I for one ain't using em. Been there, done that and been conned outta many 1000's during "dummy runs" with "sponsors"! I LIKE sending traffic to our own paysites! Never fails

Ya gotta love that $60 for a trial membership!

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kenny

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#17

12-22-2002, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Y'all get way too hyped up about shaving. It doesn't matter. Nope, it doesn't.

If you send the same amount of hits to two sponsors, then the one that pays you the most (provided they both have the same payout schedule) is the one you should send your traffic to.

Conversions, payout amounts, none of that matters. Your bank teller can assure you of that, try and cash some stats.

fraud ( P ) Pronunciation Key (frôd)
n.
A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
A piece of trickery; a trick.

One that defrauds; a cheat.
One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.

I have no problem with the shaving method if the program states something other then "$35 per signup" when payout is actually based on a different methond. Until then this pratice in my opinion falls under the definition above.

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Kick Ass Chat

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#18

12-22-2002, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Y'all get way too hyped up about shaving. It doesn't matter. Nope, it doesn't.

If you send the same amount of hits to two sponsors, then the one that pays you the most (provided they both have the same payout schedule) is the one you should send your traffic to.

Conversions, payout amounts, none of that matters. Your bank teller can assure you of that, try and cash some stats.

You have said this many times before....Shut Up already....

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jimmy3way

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#19

12-22-2002, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Webby
On double that member rate.. say 39.95 - "generally" it is financially necessary for a sponsor to charge this else they will just disappear in oblivion. For some, even at $40, they can't cut it and the "shaving script" has an increased percentage entered into the parameters.

This is only true if your site, like so many big sites these days, is a huge piece of fucking crap.

There are some paysites, some owned by GFY posters, that can charge quite a bit less than $40, and by giving their customers high quality and insuring long retention they make a boat load of money.

If you want to sell sites with shit retention you gotta pretty much fuck the customer as hard as you can on that initial bill.

I have worked at paysites in the past and just for a reference their typical monthly chargeback rate was several percentage points.

An owner of a low priced, high quality site recently told me how pissed he was cos his previous months chargebacks exceeded .30%, as they usually hovered at .20%

One thing, I forgot this last detail: the Biz Markie will always prevail.
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Webby

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#20

12-22-2002, 04:20 PM

jimmy3way:

*This is only true if your site, like so many big sites these days, is a huge piece of fucking crap.*

There are loadsa variables as I'm sure ya know! And.. no, not one of our sites charges anything near $40 and retention is just fine thanks

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Kimmykim

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#21

12-22-2002, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by GirlsFreePics

You have said this many times before....Shut Up already....

Then pay fucking attention and I won't have to keep saying it. For God's sake, you people can't be newbies forever.

In a perfect world, one where NO ONE shaved, it still wouldn't make a fuck. Whoever pays you the most is who you should go with dumbass.
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jimmy3way

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#22

12-22-2002, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Webby
There are loadsa variables as I'm sure ya know! And.. no, not one of our sites charges anything near $40 and retention is just fine thanks

Dude, I think that's exactly what I was trying to uh...say.

One thing, I forgot this last detail: the Biz Markie will always prevail.
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Kick Ass Chat

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#23

12-22-2002, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by Kimmykim

Then pay fucking attention and I won't have to keep saying it. For God's sake, you people can't be newbies forever.

In a perfect world, one where NO ONE shaved, it still wouldn't make a fuck. Whoever pays you the most is who you should go with dumbass.

YOU are the "dumbass", as you often shout off at the mouth with absolutely nothing constructive to say. You trying to tell people it's ok to be shaved, just pick the sponsor that you make the most money with after all the shavings done.....LMAO...your a joke, and I am far from a newbie, you have NO clue what programs I'am involved in (if any) and how long I've been in the biz. Time for you to take your "shaved ass" and move along little girl.

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jimmy3way

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#24

12-22-2002, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Then pay fucking attention and I won't have to keep saying it. For God's sake, you people can't be newbies forever.

Heh heh. You know I still don't think you exist. I've been to like 4 Phoenix Forums and just abotu every event that the Arizona crews have and I've met ever Az board poster. Except you.

Fess up...who are you really? Boneprone character?

One thing, I forgot this last detail: the Biz Markie will always prevail.
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Kimmykim

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#25

12-22-2002, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by GirlsFreePics

YOU are the "dumbass", as you often shout off at the mouth with absolutely nothing constructive to say. You trying to tell people it's ok to be shaved, just pick the sponsor that you make the most money with after all the shavings done.....LMAO...your a joke, and I am far from a newbie, you have NO clue what programs I'am involved in (if any) and how long I've been in the biz. Time for you to take your "shaved ass" and move along little girl.

Waaa waaa waaa, nor do I 'care' what if any programs you are involved in. Actually if i knew I would probably tell people that there's a complete idiot involved in the program, one who insinuates he's been around for awhile but hides under an anon name that no one knows.

As for me being a little girl, well thanks, I've lost about 20 poundsw but I'd still bet I'm at least 3 inches taller than you are buddy. Shove off or shove it, your choice.

lol jimmy you are so right, I don't exist, it's all be a years long trick to see how far it could be taken. ;)
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Webby

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#26

12-22-2002, 04:56 PM

jimmy3way:

*Dude, I think that's exactly what I was trying to uh...say.*

Yea.. ya were and did - and I can't fucking read!!

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Kick Ass Chat

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#27

12-22-2002, 05:05 PM

KimmyKim, look, I am not in the habit of fightning with people, especially over something as trivial as a difference of opinion. So I apologize if my words to you were to harsh. It's obvious you have your opinions about being shaved, and they are different from mine. So good luck to you, and this fight is over before it gets to deep for absolutely no reason at all.

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jimmy3way

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#28

12-22-2002, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Kimmykim

lol jimmy you are so right, I don't exist, it's all be a years long trick to see how far it could be taken. ;)

There's nothing like taking a joke as far as it'll go.

I'm impressed, I hope I'm around for the punch line.

One thing, I forgot this last detail: the Biz Markie will always prevail.
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kenny

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#29

12-22-2002, 05:26 PM

Its fucking illegal, It has to be. How can some program/company use a marketing approach that states "$50 per signup" in big fancy flash animation, and then payout using a methond that is entirely different, kept secert, and is designed to fool the affiliate. Its trickery, unlawfull gain, aka fraud. Sure webmasters have no <b><i>current</i></b> choice but to waste time finding a program that isnt fucking them royally and signs over the bigger checks for their traffic, but it doesnt make it right.
Sooner or later someone will have the solid proof required and drive to start a legal battle. Internet related buisness is still young, it will grow into a more organized fashion to protect people form fraud, it isnt ok.

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Rex

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#30

12-22-2002, 07:56 PM

shaving is EVERYWHERE dude! I have posted 850+ times here at GFY but it only shows 530+....fucking CHEATERS!

I don't own RexMag anymore.
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#31

12-22-2002, 08:09 PM

We pay $30 per join period, no shaving needed
when you payout $30 and you charge $39.95 a month!

Its a beautiful thing...

We convert and retain.. so we do well
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Nickatilynx

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#32

12-22-2002, 08:47 PM

Anything you send traffic to,sponsor,top list whatever.....shaves.

Except..
http://www.nicksclicks.com

...honestly.......

;)

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Fletch XXX

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#33

12-22-2002, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by Rex
shaving is EVERYWHERE dude! I have posted 850+ times here at GFY but it only shows 530+....fucking CHEATERS!

I stole your posts and add them to mine.

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#34

12-22-2002, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Y'all get way too hyped up about shaving. It doesn't matter. Nope, it doesn't.

If you send the same amount of hits to two sponsors, then the one that pays you the most (provided they both have the same payout schedule) is the one you should send your traffic to.

Conversions, payout amounts, none of that matters. Your bank teller can assure you of that, try and cash some stats.

Amen.

Ouch.
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Sambuka

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#35

12-22-2002, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by kenny
We all know that shaving is being praticed, its only a matter of time before someone obtains solid proof and starts a law suite, wins, and then regulations for internet companies will fall in place

That will NEVER happen. You find a sponsor you don't like, the conversions go down so low your nolonger happy you move on.

Someone who is using sponsors mainly isn't that worried about a few shaves here and there. I mean some of our sites have 10 sponsors on them and i'm sure at least some of them shave, but we work it by the conversions we're making and nothing more.

People who bitch about shaving aren't making enough money to handle a lawsuit, and most of the time that lawsuit would have to international as a lot of sponsors are offshore.

Sammy
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Gman.357

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#36

12-22-2002, 09:09 PM

If sponsors paid everyone $40 for every single signup made by their affiliates, there wouldn't be sponsors anymore. If you're not making enough cashflow from a sponsor, there are dozens out there to take their place. Or you can try opening your own paysite and make a go of it that way. Be prepared though. Paysites will cost you some big bucks to get started and to maintain. There's content expense, bandwidth expense, processing fees, customer service, design costs, possibly programming costs, and employee fees. Oh... and if you do decide to create a sponsor program for your paysite, you may wish to inquire about some shaving software.

Ouch.
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kenny

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#37

12-22-2002, 09:24 PM

What part of the definition of fraud do you not understand. Jesus fucking christ how can it be ok to state "we will pay you $50 per signup" when that is not how it works, kept secert and designed to fool the affiliate. Its trickery and that falls under the definition of fraud. And if you pratice this your nothing but a crook.
God damn there are plenty of honest program owners that understand they cant afford to payout $35/40 a signup and they stick to revshare and lower payouts.

Last edited by kenny; 12-22-2002, 09:29 PM.

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BluMedia

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#38

12-22-2002, 09:32 PM

There is no reason to shave anybody ever. I don't understand why ANY sponsor would ever shave considering webmasters are the ones you want to keep around forever and not just fuck over. Webmasters are the most important part of our business and we would never screw any of them. Shaving is the same as stealing. You are stealing signups from a webmaster thus stealing money from them. I don't understand why someone would not care about this.

Mark

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kenny

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#39

12-22-2002, 09:34 PM

Let me also add that I find it funny that so many people defend activities that are clearly fraud in all its definition. Fuck that "If your getting ripped off move on" dumb shit. I have a simple methond when I choose a program to promote if I click a link and it shows up in my stats instantly I will promote it

Last edited by kenny; 12-22-2002, 09:39 PM.

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Kimmykim

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#40

12-22-2002, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by kenny
Its fucking illegal, It has to be. How can some program/company use a marketing approach that states "$50 per signup" in big fancy flash animation, and then payout using a methond that is entirely different, kept secert, and is designed to fool the affiliate. Its trickery, unlawfull gain, aka fraud. Sure webmasters have no <b><i>current</i></b> choice but to waste time finding a program that isnt fucking them royally and signs over the bigger checks for their traffic, but it doesnt make it right.
Sooner or later someone will have the solid proof required and drive to start a legal battle. Internet related buisness is still young, it will grow into a more organized fashion to protect people form fraud, it isnt ok.

Oh wow, if you take out the words payout and signup in this post and substitute vote and election for it, you get a synopsis of the Fla polling system!

If there were only one sponsor, then I could see this being a problem. But no one is forced to send their traffic to any sponsor... it's a free will decision.
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#41

12-22-2002, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by kenny
Let me also add that I find it funny that so many people can defend activities that are clearly fraud in all its definition

kenny don't mistake defending it for laughing at it, and realizing that some things are more important than who cuts a number off here and there.

all the time that people spend posting about it, arguing about it, beating the band about what they are going to do about it, well, many new and good sponsors could have been found and tested in all that time...
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Kick Ass Chat

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#42

12-22-2002, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by Sambuka

That will NEVER happen. You find a sponsor you don't like, the conversions go down so low your nolonger happy you move on.

Someone who is using sponsors mainly isn't that worried about a few shaves here and there. I mean some of our sites have 10 sponsors on them and i'm sure at least some of them shave, but we work it by the conversions we're making and nothing more.

People who bitch about shaving aren't making enough money to handle a lawsuit, and most of the time that lawsuit would have to international as a lot of sponsors are offshore.

Sammy

Another clueless fool has spoken

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Nickatilynx

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#43

12-22-2002, 09:42 PM

I'm not defending it.

Just stating it happens.

And those that don't realise that , have chosen the wrong biz to be in.

Remnember nothing matters but the check at the end of the week.If your check is bigger with sponsor a than sponsor b...choose a.

You know the story if you are sitting at a poker table and you can't see which player is the mug.Its you.Same with shaving..

How can I shave you...let me count the ways....
there is skimming
there is cascading
theres out right stealing

But hang on.....I'm telling you the plot.I'm sworn to secrecy not to tell.....;))))

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Gman.357

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#44

12-22-2002, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by BluMedia
There is no reason to shave anybody ever. I don't understand why ANY sponsor would ever shave considering webmasters are the ones you want to keep around forever and not just fuck over. Webmasters are the most important part of our business and we would never screw any of them. Shaving is the same as stealing. You are stealing signups from a webmaster thus stealing money from them. I don't understand why someone would not care about this.

Mark

It's all in the economics of the marketplace. The proliferation of oversaturated free content available to surfers puts a major dent in the retention power of any paysite. Yet, in order for them to stay alive and competitive in today's industry, most major players must offer between $35 to $50 to affiliates if they want to stay in the game as a high roller. So, since most paysites lose money on the initial sale that you make for them, and most paysites only retain between 40% and 70% of their signups, what you are left with is a sponsor with no choice but to take a few here and there for themselves. It's like a "maintainance fee" that you would see with 3rd party CC processors who skim 15% of your gross sales for their service.

I'm not saying I personally subscribe to the "ethical" issue of this practice, nor do I shave signups simply because the business model I have doesn't require me to do so. I'm simply showing you why they do it. I would like to see many of the big players just come out and say... "Hey, we're gonna take 1 of every 5 of your signups as a maintainance fee." And be done with this accusational bullshit. But that's never gonna happen either. Because for every one guy who's straight up with their affiliates, there's always another guy who will say, "We do not shave you." And guess who the customer is gonna take a chance on first?

I'm not defending shaving here. But there's a reason some programs have to do it.

Ouch.
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kenny

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#45

12-22-2002, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Kimmykim

kenny don't mistake defending it for laughing at it, and realizing that some things are more important than who cuts a number off here and there.

all the time that people spend posting about it, arguing about it, beating the band about what they are going to do about it, well, many new and good sponsors could have been found and tested in all that time...

I am happy with the programs I currently promote, I just wanted to stress my point on how the pratice constitutes to fraud.
I understand that some companies use this pratice with good intentions, just to compete with the larger companies in the per signup market, but it leaves the door open for programs that would shave for the purposes of greed.

BTW, funny about the Fla poll joke

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BluMedia

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#46

12-22-2002, 10:58 PM

Gman I agree with your reasoning. Though I am sure some companies are just also greedy and want all the money can and will screw every person to get more of it. Have a Happy Holiday.

Mark

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nocostporn

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#47

12-23-2002, 04:27 AM

"as long as we cheat less then the next guy,use us!" I want to see somebody use that as their catchy webmaster slogon ... true colors shown in this thread,I know theres some people I would never send my shittiest traffic to

Kimmy keeps saying if program A and B are shaving and program A is making you more money,use program A! .. what the fuck? if program A wasnt shaving me I'd be making a HELLUVA lot more money wouldnt I?? Fraud is raud ... Enron frauded more money than worldcom,so does that mean worldcom is off the hook? fuck no ...

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rayzor

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#48

12-23-2002, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by GirlsFreePics

Another clueless fool has spoken

a fool that talks about another fool is the biggest fool of all ! if YOU don't have anything constructive to say....

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rayzor

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#49

12-23-2002, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by nocostporn
"as long as we cheat less then the next guy,use us!" I want to see somebody use that as their catchy webmaster slogon ... true colors shown in this thread,I know theres some people I would never send my shittiest traffic to

Kimmy keeps saying if program A and B are shaving and program A is making you more money,use program A! .. what the fuck? if program A wasnt shaving me I'd be making a HELLUVA lot more money wouldnt I?? Fraud is raud ... Enron frauded more money than worldcom,so does that mean worldcom is off the hook? fuck no ...

people.. wake up and smell the coffee!!! sure i would love it if no one shaves.. but i would also like world peace.. and be a billionaire (well maybe that will happen ) but i know that aint gonna happen! instead of bitching and whining about the system, either do something about it or use the system to your advantage and work AROUND it. i bet most of the webmasters that bitch and whine about shaving are not gonna make a cent in this industry and disappear within 6 months! when you realize everything comes down to the bottom line, i bet you'll start making some money instead of hanging around GFY and posting shit all day (not targeted at you.. in general)

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Snake Doctor

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#50

12-23-2002, 12:50 PM

There are so many ways to not pay webmasters for 100% of the joins they generate it isn't even funny.
Not all programs pay on checking joins, that's a % of members you sent that you didn't get credit for.
Not all programs pay on the backup processor, or paypal joins. The only program I'm aware of that pays on 1-900 joins is ARS.

Alot of partnership programs don't credit you for these items either, PLUS, if the partnership program doesn't have their own tracking software, and you're using secure.ibill.com/rscookie.exe links or refer.ccbill.com/blahblah links then you're depending on cookies to track your joins.
If cookies are the only way your joins are tracked you're not getting paid for all of them either. (So just using partnership programs doesn't protect you from this either)

All of this is done without having some "magic switch" inside the program to shave off affiliates joins.

But why on earth do you people stay up at night worrying about things you have absolutely no control over? The only thing you do have control over is who you send your traffic to, so send it where it makes you the most money and don't waste your time worrying about the rest.

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