Why is it hard to convince people that piracy is theft?

One thing has become obvious -
Never, ever sell any content, software, design work, or anything else to some of the
people posting in this thread - they have publicly admitted that they will "share" it
with 10,000 of their closest friends, damaging your ability to earn a living.

You may not think so, but when you illegally copy content, software, designs, etc.,
you are taking food from the mouth of someone's kids. You are a thief, just as much
as if you broke into the creator's home and robbed them. Your actions have the same
effect whether you steal from me with a gun or with a hard drive.

One thing has become obvious -
Never, ever sell any content, software, design work, or anything else to some of the
people posting in this thread - they have publicly admitted that they will "share" it
with 10,000 of their closest friends, damaging your ability to earn a living.

You may not think so, but when you illegally copy content, software, designs, etc.,
you are taking food from the mouth of someone's kids. You are a thief, just as much
as if you broke into the creator's home and robbed them. Your actions have the same
effect whether you steal from me with a gun or with a hard drive.

Ok what a long bunch of text that says nothing really (I skimmed through it which is more than most folks here will give you)

but seriously this world is in a global economic crisis, wars devastate entire nations, floods, tsunamis, horrible viruses of every flavor, the usual subhuman rape and crime in the streets, hunger, orphans, sex slaves, child abuse and your pandora's box wish is to have a global policing force for duplication of media??? Are you fucking nuts man? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!

No, the better idea is to adapt to a new world, and package your product/service in a way that will be difficult to copy or duplicate which yes by the very nature of this universe is difficult to do. You seriously think the guy/gal that copies your stuff to feed *HIS* family will give yours the first cut? FAIL..

For starters, it's not stealing and it's not theft.

If someone steals a tangible product, that product no longer exists to the retailer or producer. ie; If someone makes a TV, and goes to sell it, but someone steals it. That TV is gone from the store. That is stealing, that is theft.

If someone downloads a digital product, they are not stealing. They are making a copy of the original product to their own computer. So there are now TWO of the product. If someone makes a TV, and goes to sell it, but someone comes into the store with a TV replicating device and copies the TV, then walks out with their copy. The retailer didn't loose their TV.

There is a law designed specifically for this situation. It's the United States Copyright Law. When that person made a copy of the TV, the very moment they then possessed the copy, they were required to have a license to the copy. If they don't own the license they are then committing copyright infringement. They aren't stealing, and they aren't thieves. They've simply committed copyright infringement.


... The problem, is that people will sit online all day crying like babies. Waaa waaa waaaa, internet piracy is stealing waaa waaaa waaaa torrents are bad.

That doesn't solve anything, and there is no police force out there that is going to come to your rescue. YOU made a product, YOU have a copyright, YOU need to get off your ass and protect that copyright. It's as simple as that. The laws and legal system is in place for YOU to protect your products and copyrights. It's not the other way around, there isn't some magical being out there to do your own work. If YOU want to own a copyright, it's up to YOU to protect that copyright.

So quit whining and having moot discussions on if piracy is theft. It's not, it's copyright infringement. So go protect your copyright.

I mean seriously, if you're going to bitch all day long on the internet and not even understand something so simple and basic like COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.

You really really really need to get into a different business and start selling physical tangible products. Because you have no business selling digital goods, specially online.

lol.. United Nations having a global copyright enforcement division. That is so utterly ridiculous I'm ashamed to have even been apart of it's discussion.

So instead, to get things back on track. I'll simply quote myself since my point still stands.


Quote:
Originally Posted by potter
For starters, it's not stealing and it's not theft.

If someone steals a tangible product, that product no longer exists to the retailer or producer. ie; If someone makes a TV, and goes to sell it, but someone steals it. That TV is gone from the store. That is stealing, that is theft.

If someone downloads a digital product, they are not stealing. They are making a copy of the original product to their own computer. So there are now TWO of the product. If someone makes a TV, and goes to sell it, but someone comes into the store with a TV replicating device and copies the TV, then walks out with their copy. The retailer didn't loose their TV.

There is a law designed specifically for this situation. It's the United States Copyright Law. When that person made a copy of the TV, the very moment they then possessed the copy, they were required to have a license to the copy. If they don't own the license they are then committing copyright infringement. They aren't stealing, and they aren't thieves. They've simply committed copyright infringement.


... The problem, is that people will sit online all day crying like babies. Waaa waaa waaaa, internet piracy is stealing waaa waaaa waaaa torrents are bad.

That doesn't solve anything, and there is no police force out there that is going to come to your rescue. YOU made a product, YOU have a copyright, YOU need to get off your ass and protect that copyright. It's as simple as that. The laws and legal system is in place for YOU to protect your products and copyrights. It's not the other way around, there isn't some magical being out there to do your own work. If YOU want to own a copyright, it's up to YOU to protect that copyright.

So quit whining and having moot discussions on if piracy is theft. It's not, it's copyright infringement. So go protect your copyright.




Quote:
Originally Posted by potter
I mean seriously, if you're going to bitch all day long on the internet and not even understand something so simple and basic like COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.

You really really really need to get into a different business and start selling physical tangible products. Because you have no business selling digital goods, specially online.

I worry about all those things as well - and support initiatives that combat them as well.

where the fuck do you get off stating that piracy is the only thing I put my efforts towards.

maybe you are not capable of directing your attentions to more than one issue at a time but don't project your deficiencies onto me.

and just to be fair - go fuck YOURSELF -



so thats what you would like is it? just deal with it (adapt), no point in trying to stop it, "it is what it is" attitude.

well if the fuckers don't care about my family getting the first cut - what makes you think I should care about their cut?

packaging and delivering in a way that is 'difficult' to do stops nothing - and if a package can be made - a package can be opened - punishing those who are caught doing it is all we have - do deter future wouldbe pirates. That is the way of ALL laws - they are implemented after the fact, after the perpetrator is caught. Locks and alarms are put on cars and houses - the people who steal and break in still have laws to face. I only ask for the same.

.

One thing has become obvious -
Never, ever sell any content, software, design work, or anything else to some of the
people posting in this thread - they have publicly admitted that they will "share" it
with 10,000 of their closest friends, damaging your ability to earn a living.

You may not think so, but when you illegally copy content, software, designs, etc.,
you are taking food from the mouth of someone's kids. You are a thief, just as much
as if you broke into the creator's home and robbed them. Your actions have the same
effect whether you steal from me with a gun or with a hard drive.

What is this Gestapo of copyright protection you speak of? Common, this world has real problems.. protecting your ASSets is not one of them

It is immoral indeed. I respect your sympathy for fellow IT people.

There is a saying, and it goes like this, "The true measure of a person's character is what he does when nobody's looking, not when everybody is looking."

So, people like to steal and do crimes when supposedly nobody is watching.

99% of the people on here hated metallica when they sued napster...but now that its our problem we think its a big deal.

Part of that had to do with the fact that when Metallica started out the not only allowed but ENCOURAGED fans to copy their albums and even record their live shows and share them with friends then after they became big then they wanted that to stop. That's called being hypocritical.

No, that's called the difference between people recording a show on a cassette tape and listening to it with their buddies VS People ripping their entire albums and giving them away for free to MILLIONS of people they don't know.

All bands encouraged fans to share the music within their immediate circle. That's simple marketing strategy. You make new fans who will BUY your music.

Marketing suicide is having your product given away for FREE without your consent.

Now if you can come up with a viable plan and a publicity campaign and public image management team to make you appear to be something to a large amount of people then you can get real slick like Radiohead did and make good money by giving it away for "free".

But anybody with any background in the entertainment business realizes that the Radiohead stunt isn't much different than an evangelical preacher doing his song and dance.

It was slick, pulled off great, and pure genius on their part. Can it be replicated by other bands? Maybe, but it won't be a common thing. You can only pull that kind of PR stunt once. Then it becomes harder to paint yourself as some kind of underdog to trick folks into giving you money voluntarily.

I had NO problem with people downloading my content and handing it around to their buddies. None. But once I saw my stuff stolen and given away for free and downloaded hundreds of thousands of times...I put an end to that shit.

As I said over a year ago...Stop crying about piracy and DO something about it. And the only thing you can do is lock your content down. Stop making your content downloadable. The only stuff you find of mine out there now is our old scenes that were originally on the site as downloadable .wmv's And even those get yanked down by removeyourcontent.com as quickly as it can be done.

They don't get our new scenes. And "no" you can NOT currently steal my stuff with any software available. None. I've tested them all. Encrypted streaming, multiple layers of scripting in the background, and the users username and ip showing up randomly onscreen (to deter screen capture) combine to keep things under control.

That's why I'm still growing a paysite while others are scrambling to stop the bleeding. It doesn't take a genius to understand that the only paysite that will have value is the one that is NOT available for free.

Creating a copyright doesn't stop people from downloading your product, thus bypassing the payment system you have set up. You're making the assumption that there is any way to really keep up with the copyright infringement fight.

If some kind of teleporting tech existed, and people could download TVs from the internet to materialize in their house -- and get away with it -- they would do it.

I'm not sure it will ever really be considered a major enough offense to "illegally" download something. IMO the act of piracy is actually the public dissemination/sharing of something you do not have licensing rights to publicly disseminate/share. For example:

"7. Can I show NFL games in my bar or restaurant?

NFL SUNDAY TICKET is available for commercial locations, including bars and restaurants.. For more information, please call 1-800-242-0473 or visit www.directstartv.com/commercial. Commercial locations require an appropriate license agreement."

Also, another related issue but with showing the Super Bowl at a church: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4229536&page=1

The interesting thing about that is that unlike with the whole timeshifting argument, this is actually at the time of showing. So if public sharing of it can't even happen WITHOUT timeshifting unless an additional license is purchased, how should it be allowed WITH timeshifting? I realize in the first case that it's a commercial entity showing it and it helps them make money, but not sure a church could be considered a commercial entity.

I do think the law has shown to be on the side of people who share with their friends. People however are not "friends" with random people around the world online that they don't know, and even if it's under the guise of backup, publicly "storing" a file is no different than publicly sharing a file. If it was on a backup site where password was required to get the file, and the person putting it on there doesn't post the password publicly, then that to me isn't piracy. Even if they email a friend the password and that friend emails a friend the password etc. until it's gone to a million people. Or even if the first person gives the password to a friend and the friend posts it online - the first person wasn't guilty of anything but the friend would be IMO. The moment the password is posted on a public place, they've committed piracy IMO. If they're backing the file up on a site where it's publicly available without a password, at the point of putting the file up they've committed piracy IMO.

I say IMO because I can't pretend to know the law on this - I don't. But just judging from policies like the NFL one mentioned above, it would seem that the major difference between sharing and piracy is private vs. public and people you know vs. people you don't.

One gray area that I'm not sure how to interpret is a site like Hulu. Obviously some US shows do show on channels in Canada for instance, and as such Canadians can view those shows, but given that Hulu is US-Only more or less, it would seem that the license-holders of those shows do not want viewing rights to be given to people outside the US (probably because many of the US commercials would be useless to show to them). So there may be cases where piracy extends to viewing something you don't have viewing rights for, but determining who has viewing rights for what is a whole 'nother can of worms I guess.

you misunderstand as well

I do understand copyright infringement vs theft - I well know the difference - I have read the laws as best I could due to many discussions with giddyboy - I am now at the point where I figure I have read more than I ever should have had to.

do not assume that I do not "understand something so simple and basic like COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT"

do not assume that I don't know the difference between stealing a physical product and copying a digital product.

do not assume that I do not protect myself and my copyrighted content as best I can with the tools that are available.

BUT

I advocate change
I advocate that digital property attain the same status and protection as the 'hard' goods enjoy
I advocate a global recognition of copyright holders rights
I advocate a global Law/Treaty recognizing copyright holders rights
I advocate that a global body be created to draw up and enforce a new way



copyright laws started when there were only hard goods - and only "hard good" ways to 'copy' (books, art, etc)

copyright laws evolved when tapes were used for music, and cable TV came about allowing for a good quality copy (giddyboys VCR arguments) - they were created under the assumption that a copy would be a physical product made from a broadcast signal - and made provisions for private 'fair use'

copyright laws evolved again (more fair use expansions - DMCA - etc) when the Internet/CDs/DVDs happened - but they did not envision the rampant copying that would happen - they were modified at that time to handle a low volume of 'mistakes' and protect large corporations from liability when they accidentally used a copyrighted image

now I believe that it is time that they evolve again - to stop the rampant nature of 'copying' and distribution that the 'new' Internet infrastucture allows.



get that? - "I believe" and "I advocate" and indeed "I argue for, at length, on the Internet forums" are all my right to free speech - and I shall continue to exercise those rights for what I believe in. Just as you, giddyboy, and everyone else has their right to.

I don't tell giddyboy to stop his plans - to do something else with his business model. I will lay out my thoughts on it - I will try and convince him, he will try and convince me - its all good.

If you don't like it feel free to continue to voice your opinion - I will continue to read it.

but don't ever assume you know what I do and do not know or understand.

k?

why don't you read the OP again. and this time really read it if you are capable of doing so.

the problem with your entire tirade is you ignore the fact that these new technologies produced new INCOME streams for the copyright holders

when they generated new fair use they were balanced

Torrents/peer to peer has the same balanced transaction

just becuase you are to clueless to see the income source doesn't invalidate the new fair use rights (access shifting) or the extension of the old rights to the new medium (timeshifting, backup , recovery)

Can you please point out the income sources please?

No he can't. Nor can he explain a "private tracker" or how THAT is supposed to stop millions of people from stealing your content and destroying sales. But he will continue to tell professionals that actually ARE in this business that they are stupid and don't understand how to monetize torrents.

Of course he himself has made ZERO money with torrents.

And as I have tried to tell him over and over for the last 2 years (while he makes NO money with his ideas)...the ONLY people making money on a bit torrent site OR an illegit tube site full of stolen full scenes are the people who own those thieving sites. Nobody else.

That is the only way to "monetize" a bit torrent site or an illegit tube site. You have to be a thief and own it yourself.

No he can't. Nor can he explain a "private tracker" or how THAT is supposed to stop millions of people from stealing your content and destroying sales. But he will continue to tell professionals that actually ARE in this business that they are stupid and don't understand how to monetize torrents.

Of course he himself has made ZERO money with torrents.

And as I have tried to tell him over and over for the last 2 years (while he makes NO money with his ideas)...the ONLY people making money on a bit torrent site OR an illegit tube site full of stolen full scenes are the people who own those thieving sites. Nobody else.

That is the only way to "monetize" a bit torrent site or an illegit tube site. You have to be a thief and own it yourself.

robbie i told you before i would show everyone the solution as long as you agreed to put all your content into the public domain if you used any of those principles.

for someone who believes that i don't have the solution you seem to keep avoiding making that pledge.

If were actually a real businessman who had to innovate instead of a copy cat of other peoples successes you would have figuired it out by now.

robbie i told you before i would show everyone the solution as long as you agreed to put all your content into the public domain if you used any of those principles.

for someone who believes that i don't have the solution you seem to keep avoiding making that pledge.

If were actually a real businessman who had to innovate instead of a copy cat of other peoples successes you would have figuired it out by now.

Why don't you explain this to all, may be we can learn and make more money your way.