Do amateur / teen pay sites stand no chance?

[tanco521]

If someone was to create a amateur/teen pay site with a very good design (not a cookie cutter pay page, but something a little more unique), would it not stand to do well compared to other niches?

Would it be a stupid investment? Should another niche be chosen?

If the site was good and had a nice layout/unique design, would webmasters actually promote an amateur/teen site? All I see nowadays is Mature, Tranny, etc. and I was just wondering how amateur/teen sites convert for most people.

Thanks

[FATPad]

Content? Is the content unique, exclusive, good quality?

[quiet]

it's all about the content.

[421Fill]

yeah, they stand a chance if it's all exclusive.

[Dax]

.. and the girl(s) gotta be cute.. young and innocent looking.

[Dugmor]

Originally posted by tanco521
If someone was to create a amateur/teen pay site with a very good design (not a cookie cutter pay page, but something a little more unique), would it not stand to do well compared to other niches?

Would it be a stupid investment? Should another niche be chosen?

If the site was good and had a nice layout/unique design, would webmasters actually promote an amateur/teen site?

One of our best converting sites Sweet Dominique does'nt have a good design and is laid out very simple. Using an " amateur " formula this site not only converts but retains. Dominique is involved with keeping the members happy by always updating and answering her personal e-mail. If teen is what you like then it is a wise choice . because you are going to have to look at it everyday yo

[PerfectionGirls]

Yep... it can be done.. We do it.. The design does not even have to be that great. Cute, young girls with interaction is good. Building a personality is always a plus. Dugmor is right though.. Lots of updating and interaction.. be prepard to work it... Hope you like your girls.. You will see them in your dreams. (not always a bad thing) Dax is right though.. If it is not exclusive content then forget it. There is where it gets fun.. lol Its fun at first finding and working with the models, but man..... Let me tell ya.. thats a full time job in itself.

Hell.. look at Lightspeed.. I would say they have a strong webmaster following.

There is a niche for everybody. Teen amatuer is not a bad way to go.. Hell.. Watch us! :

[tanco521]

Originally posted by PerfectionGirls
Yep... it can be done.. We do it.. The design does not even have to be that great. Cute, young girls with interaction is good. Building a personality is always a plus. Dugmor is right though.. Lots of updating and interaction.. be prepard to work it... Hope you like your girls.. You will see them in your dreams. (not always a bad thing)

Hell.. look at Lightspeed.. I would say they have a strong webmaster following.

There is a niche for everybody. Teen amatuer is not a bad way to go.. Hell.. Watch us!

Well...I don't really mean a "single girl" amateur site, where users interact with her.

I am speaking of a site that would be similar to amateurpages in that it will have tons of innocent, cute looking girls, but it would be set up way different. The layout would be different and the design would be much different.

[Sly_RJ]

It seems to me that any niche can still do excellent. The key element is to create a "good" site. Something that you're actually proud to show people.

Can some of you paysite owners comment on the above?

[PerfectionGirls]

Hmmm didnt Webyoung do really well at that? I seem to recall them having a good run at it.

[Dugmor]

Originally posted by Sly_RJ
It seems to me that any niche can still do excellent. The key element is to create a "good" site. Something that you're actually proud to show people.

Can some of you paysite owners comment on the above?

Not only proud to show people but a site that converts ... So test it out with your own traffic before you start telling everyone..... You would be surprised what converts...... If you have the right traffic I agree any niche can be excellent .

[sweetcuties]

Only do it if you shoot your own content. Every week I run around the malls and cruise the streets (top down of course) looking for girls. Oh yea, I've been doing this for 2 yrs and it's all I do. Here's some of my 40+ girls http://www.sweetcuties.com/girls.html

Good luck

[Snake Doctor]

If you're going to create exclusive, high quality content with models that fit your niche then its well worth doing.

If you're not going to do that, you'll make more money sending your traffic to someone who does produce their own high quality content.

[Dirty F]

Originally posted by PerfectionGirls
Hmmm didnt Webyoung do really well at that? I seem to recall them having a good run at it.

I like your girls but DAMN your designs suck! Do you actually get people to sign up for those sites?

[Mutt]

yeah great idea, more websites with exclusive content, especially with teens!!!


who's going to give you that for $2 bucks a photo featuring some of the cutest teens in Southern California?


5 good ones that we've never shot before are available this week, in fact 4 out of the 5 I've never seen anywhere. Might be on some site somewhere but i've never seen them.

[Dopy]

Some people seem to have difficulty with the words cute and teen. Old spunkers are not teens no matter how much shit you throw on their faces.

Its about time someone did the job properly by producing a great interactive cute amateur teen site without the expired sell by dates.

[FTVGirls]

We invested $25,000 and 4 months of preparation before our site ever even went online. Patience was a virtue, and now the rewards are coming in.

But yes, quality, original content, a good looking website, and high update frequency is key.

[Mutt]

any luck with Mr. Smith FTVGirls?

i ripped him a new ahole on LukeFord.com, was hoping to draw him out from his under his rock but no luck. Just got some ahole who said Wanton sucked

[FTVGirls]

hey mutt im not sure who Mr. Smith is? Perhaps you were talking to my partner Chris?

edit: duh now I know who you mean Cam Smith

I havent heard back from him in ages. Ive given up on that agent.

Speaking of which, you luck guy, you seem to get all the pretty models. Living in AZ makes it more difficult ((

[Mutt]

yeah i must have been emailing chris and not you. I did email two of the models about you guys, told them you would pay their way to AZ, gave them your URL, both never got back to me. Girls are total flakes.

Cam Smith is a dick. I am now sending him weekly reminders that he is a dick.

I have another agent i can hook you up with. Problem with him is he is more expensive than the usual. I have to charge more for sets with his girls usually because no money in it if i don't.

If u look on my site, both Annabelle and Cali come from him.

[FTVGirls]

Ive had bad luck with agents so far, but from the girls you showed me, I would like to contact this agent. Our cost/income ratio is pretty good, so depending on the quality of the girl, we can pay higher. There so much variety in FTV from girl to girl, (eg from near non-nude to extreme fisting) that there is a sufficient selection of shooting styles to make any model comfy.

[Mutt]

ok, email me and i'll give you his info

[email protected]

[psyko514]

hate to be an asshole (not really)

PerfectionGirls... check the rules on signatues

Q: I want to create a signature what guidelines should I follow when doing so?
A: a 120x60 button is cool. And up to 3 lines of text.

by my count, you have 8 lines of text as well as 3 blank lines...

[Mutt]

he's getting better though ......... he used to have Tawnee Stone's join button on his sites

[UnseenWorld]

"Teen" is hardly a niche anymore...it's the mainstream. It'll only go away if the govt finds some way to shut it down.

I laugh whenever I see another pink and baby blue "teen" site with young girls in cheerleader outfits or licking on a sucker with bows in their hair, or braided pigtails. Somebody had just thrown a ton of money away!

If you don't make your own "teen" content exclusively or buy exclusive material (from someone like me), then you at least need an original idea.

Interaction (real or pseudo), frequent updating, and site design are important. NOT having e-zines and feeds they can find on 9 out of 10 other sites is important.

As an alternative to finding a new or underserved niche (can there really be such a thing anymore?), find an "angle." For example, I know that several successful sites let their members download whole series of pics as ZIP files.

Please your members! One of the dumbest things I've seen sites doing lately is disabling right-click. Duh! This is why people join your site! I can't imagine a site like that has a high retention rate, and I bet they suffer chargeback hell, too.

My

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by sweetcuties
Only do it if you shoot your own content. Every week I run around the malls and cruise the streets (top down of course) looking for girls. Oh yea, I've been doing this for 2 yrs and it's all I do. Here's some of my 40+ girls http://www.sweetcuties.com/girls.html

Yes this is assuming you can shoot and have the equipment plus locations. Then have endless hours to cruise the malls and streets without getting arrested for soliciting for an immoral purpose. Then you know the poses, can get the reactions from the models you need to produce the content that surfers want. Plus a site with 40 girls is not going to retain for long.

You might as well be a content supplier if you can do all that.

Or you could get people like Mutt or us to shoot exclusive at $2 a picture. Then not only do you own the set but also you can use it as you wish.

Exclusive is not the only point, it?s also down to quality and Amateur still has to have the ?right? quality to it. And unless you have a very big budget you will need to put some non-exclusive in their to fill the site. You do not want a site that a guy can look at in a week and a half.

[tanco521]

Originally posted by charly
Yes this is assuming you can shoot and have the equipment plus locations. Then have endless hours to cruise the malls and streets without getting arrested for soliciting for an immoral purpose. Then you know the poses, can get the reactions from the models you need to produce the content that surfers want. Plus a site with 40 girls is not going to retain for long.

You might as well be a content supplier if you can do all that.

Or you could get people like Mutt or us to shoot exclusive at $2 a picture. Then not only do you own the set but also you can use it as you wish.

Exclusive is not the only point, it?s also down to quality and Amateur still has to have the ?right? quality to it. And unless you have a very big budget you will need to put some non-exclusive in their to fill the site. You do not want a site that a guy can look at in a week and a half.

I personally would rather find the girls and pay them $50-100 an hour for 5 or 6 hours. That would give around 1200+ pictures with the help of another photographer and 5-6 hours of video. This isn't an option for everyone though.

[the indigo]

If we want 30-40 image per set/girl... do you still charge 2$ per image?

Guess not eh? What's the minimum. Tell me the price per set, not per image.

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by UnseenWorld

As an alternative to finding a new or underserved niche (can there really be such a thing anymore?), find an "angle." For example, I know that several successful sites let their members download whole series of pics as ZIP files.

If you do this make sure you stick your URL on every picture it makes it lass attractive to steal.

But he is right, you need to find an angle. Make it like a club with interaction or use content with one or two angles, like "Anal" or ""Panties" or "Small tits" and be careful of the shooters using 25 year olds in pigtails.

You need to find a couple of really good girls to convert for you, that is a good way to start.

[the indigo]

Originally posted by tanco521

I personally would rather find the girls and pay them $50-100 an hour for 5 or 6 hours. That would give around 1200+ pictures with the help of another photographer and 5-6 hours of video. This isn't an option for everyone though.

Damn you are fast... 4 photos per minute for 5 hours straight. I would not pay to join a site with 1200 pictures of the same girl... gets boring fast! ;-)

[Mutt]

i've spoken to some people who do what you do sweetcuties about shooting stuff for them. They are the only people who've ever questioned the prices i sell for - because they are set up to do it like you are, and they can probably turn it out themselves a LITTLE cheaper. But 98% of webmasters can't, big headache for them, we use mostly agency girls and it's still not that easy finding good new models. I see Ox and RkMedia running all over
modelling sites looking for girls cuz they've probably shot every decent looking nude model in Florida. I think the guys in smaller cities where there might be only a few photographers who do adult work have it better. Smaller pool of girls but much less competition. Plus the girls are not as biz savvy. Girls are expensive i'm finding out, $500 half day, no video, just stills.

Vick who runs Cloud9Cash used to shoot his own content, he told me that is wasn't economical for him any more to create his own content - he figured the cost to him was something like $3 per photo. His time was worth more running his sites. So he licenses most of his content and sometimes buys exclusive.

Nobody knows what's out there in content like Vick - the Rainman of Nudity!

[Mutt]

I said my price is $2 per image and it is, probably cheaper if i counted the images in each set.

Sets are $150 apiece.

[the indigo]

Originally posted by Mutt
I said my price is $2 per image and it is, probably cheaper if i counted the images in each set.

Sets are $150 apiece.

Well $150 per set means you pay $2 per image for 75 image minimum.

[UnseenWorld]

Originally posted by Mutt
Vick who runs Cloud9Cash used to shoot his own content, he told me that is wasn't economical for him any more to create his own content - he figured the cost to him was something like $3 per photo. His time was worth more running his sites.

I know guys who have gone both ways, but I think the guys who have an overkill camera sitting on the shelf gathering dust are in the majority.

Unless you have the kind of market who is totally indifferent to quality OR unless you actually have the talent to justify opening your own content business, it's not a good idea.

Of those who have tried and quit, the reason I have heard most frequently was a variation on the explanation you gave. More work and less fun than they thought: findng and meeting with models (you can hire models cold if you like, but I think that's nuts if you have the option of doing an in-person interview), finding and hiring locations, hauling equipment around, shuttling the models (who frequently don't have their own transportation), coordinating everything so it all comes together nicely, setting up your equipment, shmoozing the girls (to relax them), directing the ones who need it and knowing which ones don't, taking the photos, prepping them (resizing, rotating, color-correcting, sharpening, retouching, etc.). And I'm not even getting into things you may not be used to dealing with in girls you're not involved with: menstruation, jealous boyfriends, high no-show rate (not so much for shoots, but for interviews it's astronomical). The first time you've hauled your ass and your equipment to a location you're paying a couple hundred bucks or more to rent, and then the model doesn't show up, or shows up with a huge purple rash or dark black and blue mark, or with an ass covered with welts or festering zits, you'll know why you want it all to be someone else's problem. Someone nuts like me or Charly or Aaron or one of the other guys who is dedicated to doing this stuff for a living.

[Mutt]

i have been set straight about the challenges of being a nudie photographer. I do probably 75 emails back and forth with Wanton a day. I used to abuse him a bit, why can't I can't hire that girl, these girls suck, make them smile more , why can't you shoot more outdoor stuff for me, more girl/girl, more props, more makeup - it ain't easy at all.

As he's told me a bunch of times - the shooting is the easiest part.
I also didn't know how expensive the equipment was, just spent
i think it's 12 grand on new lights?? I didn't know digital cameras
wear out so fast - $2500 per camera, maybe more, lenses.

I should show you the extent of what some of this retouching is and many guys in this business wouldn't do it, spend the time to correct each one of 200 images.

I did see one guy who seemed to be selling exclusive work cheaper than me, then i read his terms, and he wasn't including ANY post production work, if you wanted the photos cleaned up, corrected, it was extra, wanted a t-shirt $50 extra.........he was still cheap but not any cheaper than Wanton Girls, about the same when all was said and done. I liked his stuff, seems to be more hot young girls who want to be naked in Quebec than in any other place on the planet.

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by tanco521

I personally would rather find the girls and pay them $50-100 an hour for 5 or 6 hours. That would give around 1200+ pictures with the help of another photographer and 5-6 hours of video. This isn't an option for everyone though.

So you reckon you can shoot 1200 pics in 6 hours.

I'd love to see the quality. You have to move the lights 8 times, relight the set, redress the model, feed her, give her a break between sets. Or are you just going to change her underwear or the bedspread and call that a different set? The best I can do is 5 sets a day and about 150 pics in a set.

Besides what Unseen listed there's also things like props, clothing, underwear or you expecting the model to turn up with everything.

The guy who is going to make you a success is the surfer who pays. He will pay for a good wank, it's your job to provide him with the content that enable's him to do that. The guy gets his CC out for CONTENT that rocks him, not for you trying to do it on the cheap.

[boldy]

[sweetcuties]

Originally posted by charly
Yes this is assuming you can shoot and have the equipment plus locations. Then have endless hours to cruise the malls and streets without getting arrested for soliciting for an immoral purpose. Then you know the poses, can get the reactions from the models you need to produce the content that surfers want. Plus a site with 40 girls is not going to retain for long.

You might as well be a content supplier if you can do all that.

Or you could get people like Mutt or us to shoot exclusive at $2 a picture. Then not only do you own the set but also you can use it as you wish.

Exclusive is not the only point, it?s also down to quality and Amateur still has to have the ?right? quality to it. And unless you have a very big budget you will need to put some non-exclusive in their to fill the site. You do not want a site that a guy can look at in a week and a half.

When it comes to finding talent, my approach is different than others. I'm young enough to hit the clubs/bars, so I've been fortunate. Not everyone can do what I do and I admit it... but I think you're being hypocritical. If you see a hot girl walking somewhere or out shopping, you're not gonna give her a biz card. Don't BS a Bullshitter!!!

Oh yea, I opened my site with just 3 girls and I've built it up. Shit, I've still got members from 2001 and a few of them have been with me since day 1. I speak with many of them thru aol/icq, which very few webmasters do. As far as retention, just ask the people that push ANY of my sites, I retain well. Alot of customers don't want quantity, they prefer quality. Llike I said before, I'm the exception, not the norm

[AaronM]

Originally posted by PerfectionGirls
There is a niche for everybody. Teen amatuer is not a bad way to go.. Hell.. Watch us! :

Watch you? Hell...Watch me.

Look out Lightspeed. You know what I have.

[Paul Markham]

Hi Sweetcutie
Then you are the exception rather than the rule and I give out advice that will fit everyone not the exceptional few.

Walk up to a girl in a clubs/bars/ and start chatting to her. She thinks "Cute guy" or "Deadbeat" then you try to talk het to come back to your place and strip off to have you take nude pictures of her.

You are a real sweet talker and I'm afraid that very few guys can do that. Only in their dreams and porno films des it work that way.

Yes if we see a cute girl, Eva walks up to her and talks to her. We pay $300 a day and in country where few earn $300 a month it's a tempting offer, but still the best response comes from classified ads.

But the bottom line about shooting for your own site is that is assumes you have and can use the equipment, know how to pose and motivate a model, know how to shot porn, know how to build a set and have a location that is not just two rooms. Know how to deal with the jealous boyfriend, irate father, etc. when they find out.

And finally find the surfer who wants to look at one single view of porn, the shooters. I would never advise anyone to buy just my content, and I can shoot different styles, but to get a selelction of shooters content within the same niche/style.

[PerfectionGirls]

I like your girls but DAMN your designs suck! Do you actually get people to sign up for those sites?

Funny this is they do... Look... I know my designs suck... hell... I come right out and say in it my signature. The thing is... If you were an 18 year old (inexperienced at site building) girl, building a website... what would it look like? I know my photo resizing is not up to par and I know they sites don?t look all hot and fancy, but I can?t have sites that look like every other, cookie cutter porn site either. These are personality sites and need an amateur flare.

I have looked at the hot teen amateur sites... They are not a far cry for what I am producing. There thumbs are way better and photo compression is better, but the design and some of the graphic styles are very similar. Tell me... in private, what you think I could do better? I would love to know and I will fix it. We are new and growing like crazy... we have great girls and we DO convert. We opened and launched Sydney's site on March 24th of this year... Since we opened... all our sites have converted 1-252... I can forward the stats and reports to anyone that wants them. I'm not being defensive here, I'm just trying got get a handle on what "sucks" so bad about my designs. I know the obvious things... I mentioned them above, but if you have specifics... God, I would love to hear them... If I can convert better then 1-252 I am all about it.

I have only been active on the boards for about three weeks. I have learned a TON.. We are spending a ton of cash on advertising right now and getting the name out. We have a kick ass affiliate site coming out next week and we have a great up to 70% payout that will be announced the day that site opens. We will be in Vegas and we are bringing three of the girls.... I am looking forward to meeting all of you and learning more.

You guys rock and the help I have gotten from you has been great! Keep it up. We are newbies, but we are committed and we do this full time. No backing out now... We want to do it right!!!

My icq is in my signature.. Don't hesitate to use it.

Jeff

[Paul Markham]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like your girls but DAMN your designs suck! Do you actually get people to sign up for those sites?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder what the surfer logs on to jerk off to??????????? Cute girls or good design.

What a lot of "designers" miss is the surfer does not know a good design from a bad one and is only looking at the girl.

So long as it loads and can be seen, he's jerking off to the porn.

[PerfectionGirls]

What a lot of "designers" miss is the surfer does not know a good design from a bad one and is only looking at the girl.

Kinda has been my theory also.. I know when I was a surfer.. I did'nt know a good design from a bad one. What I did know is what got me wood. If I got wood, I was a buyer.. plain and simple..

[the indigo]

Originally posted by Mutt
iI did see one guy who seemed to be selling exclusive work cheaper than me, then i read his terms, and he wasn't including ANY post production work, if you wanted the photos cleaned up, corrected, it was extra, wanted a t-shirt $50 extra.........he was still cheap but not any cheaper than Wanton Girls, about the same when all was said and done. I liked his stuff, seems to be more hot young girls who want to be naked in Quebec than in any other place on the planet.

Do you have his info? I'm from Montreal and would like to see what we are doing here... you can send me a msg 5971277

[UnseenWorld]

Originally posted by PerfectionGirls


Funny this is they do... Look... I know my designs suck... hell... I come right out and say in it my signature. The thing is... If you were an 18 year old (inexperienced at site building) girl, building a website... what would it look like? I know my photo resizing is not up to par and I know they sites don?t look all hot and fancy, but I can?t have sites that look like every other, cookie cutter porn site either. These are personality sites and need an amateur flare.

I have looked at the hot teen amateur sites... They are not a far cry for what I am producing. There thumbs are way better and photo compression is better, but the design and some of the graphic styles are very similar. Tell me... in private, what you think I could do better? I would love to know and I will fix it. We are new and growing like crazy... we have great girls and we DO convert. We opened and launched Sydney's site on March 24th of this year... Since we opened... all our sites have converted 1-252... I can forward the stats and reports to anyone that wants them. I'm not being defensive here, I'm just trying got get a handle on what "sucks" so bad about my designs. I know the obvious things... I mentioned them above, but if you have specifics... God, I would love to hear them... If I can convert better then 1-252 I am all about it.

I have only been active on the boards for about three weeks. I have learned a TON.. We are spending a ton of cash on advertising right now and getting the name out. We have a kick ass affiliate site coming out next week and we have a great up to 70% payout that will be announced the day that site opens. We will be in Vegas and we are bringing three of the girls.... I am looking forward to meeting all of you and learning more.

You guys rock and the help I have gotten from you has been great! Keep it up. We are newbies, but we are committed and we do this full time. No backing out now... We want to do it right!!!

My icq is in my signature.. Don't hesitate to use it.

Jeff

Okay, newbies, listen up! People do not sign up for sites because of the design (and especially NOT Flash design). They sign up because of the content. The purpose of the design is to display the content in a way that motivates the visitor.

The important parts of design have to do with presentation and navigation. I.e., does the design display enough content and in such a way that the visitor wants to join? What are the girls like? Is there a hint or description of what he is missing by not joining? If the tour is not all done on one page, is navigation around the tour easy? If you frustrate and piss off the visitor there, he is not going to join.

One of the original and more successful teen sites around is TeenFlood. Here's proof that a teen site does NOT have to be a cookie cutter pink and baby blue site. You can see that he has tons of girls, but you get only head shots. The head shots tell you that these are really cute girls. Rather than giving away content, he only hints at it. To see more, you have to join. The closest he gets to hardcore is two girls going at it (which in our culture, for some strange reason, isn't regarded as all that hard...I would call it mediumcore, along girls/toys and masturbation).

The formula for success in this field is the opposite of what a lot of people think. They copy success. Well, let me tell you: that guy you're copying has a head start and does what he does a lot better than you will, because he's made all the mistakes, he has a regular flow of good traffic (or at least traffic he knows how to sell economically). By the time you figure all this stuff out, you will be broke.

You're much better off finding a new niche or a new angle and working that. I know of several niches which have room for more competition, but they might involve less nudity and nastiness than your average porn site, so they might seem like less fun.

Some niches are underserved because content is more expensive to produce (outdoor flashing...you'll get much fewer shots per hour of work than you can get indoors) or the subject matter is scarcer (preggers, golden showers).

[jimmyf]

Originally posted by UnseenWorld
[B
I know that several successful sites let their members download whole series of pics as ZIP files.

Please your members! One of the dumbest things I've seen sites doing lately is disabling right-click. Duh! This is why people join your site! I can't imagine a site like that has a high retention rate, and I bet they suffer chargeback hell, too.

My [/B]

Yes the zip down load is great, and I agree with you on the right click, that's go to be so stupid. I would think they suffer huge chargebacks and most likely don't have a clue. Some people are just dam stupid.

[jimmyf]

Originally posted by charly
I wonder what the surfer logs on to jerk off to??????????? Cute girls or good design.

What a lot of "designers" miss is the surfer does not know a good design from a bad one and is only looking at the girl.

So long as it loads and can be seen, he's jerking off to the porn.

Well said and I believe this is more true than most webmaster know or understand.

[tanco521]

hah...that vicki chick lived in my home town...hmmm, and her name ain't vicki...i love running across people i have met before on the internet...funny shit.

[smileygirls]

Out of curiosity...

What do you guys think of this site?

stormyfriday

[Dugmor]

Originally posted by smileygirls
Out of curiosity...

What do you guys think of this site?

stormyfriday

Some of those girls are the same girls on my sites....

Hit me up on ICQ 45771964