so ..if programs target to skip the affiliates in the equation.... should affiliates with traffic start their own programs?
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Agreed.
Except they have the advantage. They can, and have, watched and monitored or questioned affiliates where their traffic comes from for years. So they may not be able to duplicate it exactly, but they can easily enough reverse engineer it to get some decent results chief.
Information is power.
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Agreed.
However, there is also more stability. I would concede there is probably going to be less traffic bringing it in house. But then you no longer need to build your business model around $75-150 PPS, pre paid money to whales, or the fear that next month they pull all your traffic and you go out of business.
Bringing it in house is more conservative, and a more stable business model.
So PPS hurts.. you're still paying for not just LEADS but SALES.. A new customer can be worth hundreds and hundreds of dollars long term. A new customer can be sold off and kept.Comment
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Exactly right.
This is a business. It would be nice to see more business minded folk in this thread. The facts are the facts in 2009 and it is clear in the trades, and on the boards....
Programs can't keep afford to pay these affiliate ransoms for PPS. Period.
They are gouging their content budgets for traffic and crossing their toes for sales. It is not working. No new content. Rotating the old. Not rebilling for shit. Over reliance on cross sales and other tactics. Programs are teetering on collapse. Any good business owner would find a more reliable, stable, way of controlling costs and remaining in business especially in an ever competitive market place.
The time has come for change, and many of the affiliates are being squeezed out. It should be interesting to see who is left in this industry come Vegas show in January.
They flock in for the illusion of big PPS bucks.. right..
So they'll flock in to be employees for a tiny fraction of the bucks, like the average american employee... right?
Or you'll hire indians.. why not, they speak english better than us, now..
Seems like the PPS is unsustainable by a 100% honest program.. it's too much.. and trying to con traffic gurus into becoming employees .. it's too little for them .. and too much extra cost for you
Will it save you alot of money?
I don't have the experience to say.. I do know that you take on alot of liability having employees rather than having affiliates. Any time one of the mindless little turds fucks something up guess who they're (f_i, mom&dad, some big service they spammed) coming screaming and crying and throwing lawsuits at... It's YOU.
Employees are going to expect more of you, too- alot more. They're NOT employees because they DON'T need their hands held.
Hiring people based on this would make sense, yeah?.. Come in and be self employed, do ____ all day for us and go home. Don't let them smell the money.. I guess... like the other guy said if they know they're making YOU the bucks they're out the door.. why not.
I BET THAT YOU COULD TEACH PEOPLE TO DO WHAT YOU NEED DONE WITHOUT LETTING THEM LEARN HOW.. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS BREAK IT DOWN INTO DIFFERENT STEPS HANDLED BY DIFFERENT BODIES.. I LOVE THAT IDEA.
I just don't understand throwing away 100+ people or even 1000 people who are actively and self sufficiently promoting YOU .. All you have to do is provide promo material and they run with it.
Like being motherfucking SYNDICATED. Publish it once and these guys all go out and use it to promote you.
I don't understand how that happens in house. All of these people out there promoting and working around the fucking clock without you being ONE BIT LIABLE for what they manage to fuck up (unless they invite alot of fraud.. but you have your eyes on thigs and you take care of potential problems anyway)
Plus.. who ever said that affiliates get half?
90% of the time, where the FUCK is my credit for your upsells in your members area if you give me 50%? What about the sales I somehow don't get credited for, for a plethora of reasons.. it happens.. to all of us.. period.. What about the e-mails you send 2-3 months later, all of those people who sign up again .. my customers you decide to keep..
60% can become 25% real fucking quick.
PPS I believe really does hurt.. but you all have checked sales.. and I don't believe any program is crediting me 100% of my PPS sales, anyway... miss one here, miss one there, an upsell here, another leak there, some spam later on to steal a customer I brought in, it all evens out..... right?!
THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT ANY PARTICULAR PROGRAM OR MEANT TO BE OVERLY CRITICAL. AND I HAVE NOT SLEPT FOR 2 DAYS. SO IF I SOUND OVERLY CRITICAL, I'M SORRY.. FEEL FREE TO EXPAND ON WHAT I HAVE SAID.. LIKE I SAID, I'VE NOT GOT THE EXPERIENCE, MEANING I'VE NEVER OWNED OR RAN A PROGRAM.Comment
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And another thing.
Bonuses and incentives should be for numbers
once a month some nice shit to these people:
Most real unique hits gets this
best conversion ratio gets that
best overall improvement for affiliates sending at least 5 sales a day
also should be a 3 month holdbackComment
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If you're screaming about not getting a piece of members area upsells, you'd definitely be screaming about a 3 month holdback. Plus, those bonuses would be real easy to fraud up, especially most unique hits. Unless you asterisk it and say that Chinese traffic doesn't count, and yada yada ...which would make affiliates scream.
Just look at $ per unique hits and you'll know which sponsors to use, it doesn't matter if they pay you for upsells or if they have traffic leaks or if they shave. Most $ per unique hits is the best sponsor for your traffic.Donovan TrentComment
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I have been a affilate for almost 10 years and in those 10 years i have asked for a creative or what not maybe 5 times. Most people who do this day in and day out make their own ads and do the work themselfs. If i had the choise of being paid 60% rev with a affialte manager or 70% rev with no affialte manager i would take the 70% any day of the week. As far as affialtes pulling traffic to a sponsor, simple solution convert my traffic. You make me money why would i leave? I have had some of the same sposors since i started and still to this day promote them just as hard if not harder then i did when i started.Comment
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I don't scream about the one month holdback at a sponsor I've worked with for years now.. Because they're honest people. And they know better than to make exceptions or fuck with a well oiled machine.
Of course you're going to asterisk it but don't use the asterisk.
Most US hits this months gets:
Most this gets:
Give them what a cash percentage bonus (maybe based on next months payout.. ) I don't know.
Your concerns are valid, I like the idea.
This, of course, is indisputable..
it doesn't matter if they pay you for upsells or if they have traffic leaks or if they shave. Most $ per unique hits is the best sponsor for your traffic.
So long as they're on the level and don't give YOU a bad rep for your promoting.Comment
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if pps was not economically viable it would not be offered. just because you do not know how to profitably monetize those joins does not mean they cannot.Comment
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That is a lot of creative, and capitalized, misdirection of the fundamental driving advantage.
Control.
Whether it costs more, or not. Liability, or not. They know next month when they refuse to pay your affiliate $75/150/250 PPS ransom. They know when they have traffic in-house and control that they still have sales, and traffic in the hopper for next month.
That is a more stable, long term, business model then any affiliate PPS model is going to provide in the 2009 economy. Sorry.
Also, I am not just 'spit balling' these ideas and concepts. These points I have been making have been discussed at almost every conference this year that I have been to. Whether on a panel, seminars, or over drinks with BROS. They have also been mentioned in the trades in 2 of the past three months.
The industry is already moving in this direction. You need to get on the same page if you are planning to stay in it.
Last edited by Barefootsies; 08-14-2009, 08:18 PM.Comment
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It's worth what your competitors can offer. Supply/demand.
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Sure and it goes both ways... oh but, hey can you compete with 500 active affiliates? Say each has 5 websites throwing traffic your way... you telling me you can handle all that all by yourself chief? Hardly.Agreed.
Except they have the advantage. They can, and have, watched and monitored or questioned affiliates where their traffic comes from for years. So they may not be able to duplicate it exactly, but they can easily enough reverse engineer it to get some decent results chief.
Information is power.
If were talking about saving money by doing it yourself.. good luck with that, you will NEVER EVER get the results you can without having to pay someone. Might as well be honest affiliates - you pay them and that's about it... nothing else required. In house staff have overhead.
i like wafflesComment
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I don't think a lot of you guys understand how pps works, or what the numbers are or where they come from. For starters, $75-100-200 promo days are marketing expenses to get people interested in the program... That $200 PPS does not come from "fucking over the surfer".Comment
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It's getting late, so I'll make this brief.Sure and it goes both ways... oh but, hey can you compete with 500 active affiliates? Say each has 5 websites throwing traffic your way... you telling me you can handle all that all by yourself chief? Hardly.
If were talking about saving money by doing it yourself.. good luck with that, you will NEVER EVER get the results you can without having to pay someone. Might as well be honest affiliates - you pay them and that's about it... nothing else required. In house staff have overhead.
1. I doubt there are 500 affiliates left in adult sending the numbers in your example.
2. I do not run a big program, so I am not doing anything like that sport. No need to worry about it.
3. Programs have support staff. As I said before. They are not going to do it to the level of supposed success as affiliates in regards to potential, and ASSuming non-fraud sales.
However, they will also be consistent money from month to month, and not be held ransom. Also can keep more of their initial $29.95 sale, as well as all cross and up sale money for themselves.
Less fraud. More money for themselves. More stability. More control.Last edited by Barefootsies; 08-14-2009, 11:14 PM.Comment
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How much sense does it make for a program to pay "advertising expenses" to an affiliate by offering $200 PPS just to have all that newly gained traffic yanked when they get paid out? You seriously telling me that the affiliate is going to hang around and your going to recoup your costs on the residual traffic?
Hell no.
And hidden cross sales on the join form? Why would programs who offer insane PPS do something like that? Tommorow the surfer gets hit for $100+ in charges from multiple other sites? You telling me that's a honest way of doing business?
This is the reasons why I don't promote PPS sponsors... I can list more, but i'm tired and need to get some sleep here.... for me, I can sleep a lot better at nights, knowing my surfers are getting a fair deal for a good price on 50-60% revshare plans.
i like wafflesComment
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Bah! Hardly.. you seriously telling me that the entire adult industry has less than 500 affiliates? Maybe in the micro niche you operate in... but seriously.. there's probably tens of thousands of "affiliates" (and i'll use the term VERY loosely here, meaning anyone who's ever used an affiliate link to send traffic to a site).
It doesn't need to be 500 affiliates sending big numbers... yeah you can have one whale or yourself getting traffic from a few sources, or you could be getting trickles from hundreds of sources. No one person can with 100% certainty predict what gets the surfer to finally whip out their credit card at the join form, but the odds are a hell of a lot better when it's coming from hundreds of sources and methods.
Let's agree to disagree on these points then Your a program owner, and I understand where your coming from.
i like wafflesComment
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It is much more complicated then I care to type out for the sake of debate.
Getting back on point, regardless of the board bantering, programs are already moving in this direction. So regardless of what I do, or say. They have already made it clear in statements at the conferences, as well as in the trades, and some on different industry boards.
Regardless if it makes sense or not to the affiliates. Whales or not. The industry is already moving in that direction. So it is only a matter of time now.
Agreed.
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Why do you need to choose between the two? If you can create your own traffic network - do it, while still keeping your affiliate backend..
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LOL. Also, good luck with that.
It's all about areas of relative expertise. Take mine, which is blogs. I've been porn blogging for nigh on seven years now, and in all that time, I haven't seen a single sponsor-run blog that's worth a bucket of warm spit.* Oh, sure, they're beautiful by the standards of porn sites, but that's what they look like -- acres of sterile pornsite updates. Which is to say, dull as dirt. Nothing that compels the readers to come back day after day ... for years.
The skill set of "can run a pay site" and "can write a decent blog" don't overlap very often -- and when they do, the guy running the porn site doesn't have the bloody time. Could he hire a decent blogger? Sure. Does he? Never. Or, if he does, he insists on sterile pornsite update posts instead of real blogging, with diversity, humor, and unexpected quirks.
Years ago I tried to talk Kink.com (before they were kink.com) into hiring Violet Blue to write a blog for them. Was she willing? Yes. Did they do it? No. Why not? God only knows. Instead, she got a job with Gawker Media putting Fleshbot on the map (along with a few other people, it wasn't a one-woman job by any means). She could have done Fleshbot, only better, with the Kink.com brand all over it. (Note well, when Gawker Media laid off her and Jonno, Fleshbot went completely to crap. To make this work you have to both hire and retain.)
I guess what I'm saying -- and I'm pretty sure every serious long-time affiliate here will back me up on this -- is "Reverse engineer this, mutherfucker!"
I could run down similar arguments with regard to SEO or any of the other ways that affiliates generate traffic.
You can't "reverse engineer" specialized expertise. All you can do is hire it, and to do that, you've got to pay it more than it's getting now. So there's no financial win there.
*Footnote: In truth I have actually seen a few decent sponsor blogs. They mostly exist in the world of sex toy sales, where the programs seem to have a much more realistic view of what a marketing budget should look like. There are also one or two decent ones in the BDSM world, from producers who are so tiny and micro-niched that the program owner really can find the time to do a "real" blog while running his business. But, for every half-way decent program-run blog, I can point you to a couple dozen crap ones.Offering sponsored blog posts and custom writing services.Comment
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Here's and interesting question. A lot of talk about whales in this thread. What is a whale nowadays? I am sure there are a lot of people existing on a few joins a day, but how many does it take to influence a program? How many joins does it take to be an influential "whale"?Bah! Hardly.. you seriously telling me that the entire adult industry has less than 500 affiliates? Maybe in the micro niche you operate in... but seriously.. there's probably tens of thousands of "affiliates" (and i'll use the term VERY loosely here, meaning anyone who's ever used an affiliate link to send traffic to a site).
It doesn't need to be 500 affiliates sending big numbers... yeah you can have one whale or yourself getting traffic from a few sources, or you could be getting trickles from hundreds of sources. No one person can with 100% certainty predict what gets the surfer to finally whip out their credit card at the join form, but the odds are a hell of a lot better when it's coming from hundreds of sources and methods.
Let's agree to disagree on these points then Your a program owner, and I understand where your coming from.Comment
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They are not going to be able to clone you, or get the exact same results you can. That is correct toots. However they CAN reverse engineer to a certain degree when they see where your traffic is coming from.I guess what I'm saying -- and I'm pretty sure every serious long-time affiliate here will back me up on this -- is "Reverse engineer this, mutherfucker!"
I could run down similar arguments with regard to SEO or any of the other ways that affiliates generate traffic.
You can't "reverse engineer" specialized expertise. All you can do is hire it, and to do that, you've got to pay it more than it's getting now. So there's no financial win there.
As I have said a half dozen times before. They are not going to mirror your affiliate efforts. But they can duplicate it to a lesser degree and get what they are ultimately after.
Control of the traffic.Comment
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I asked a couple of processors that very question in Florida, since they see the back end of the transactions and would know better what is actually true about this industry, and claims. Here is there responses.
1. The only whales sending 100-200 joins a day are mailers. A lot via Yahoo.
2. A whale, in 2009 terms, sends 2-20 joins a day. If you can consistently do that. You are a whale in 2009.
3. If cross sales were eliminated tomorrow. 50-75% of the programs would close. They stay alive on cross sales, and some up sells.
So there you have it.Comment
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I think a lot of you guys are missing the point of "in house traffic"... Obviously no program is going to give up their current affiliate base. The real issue is how much time/money they are going to put into acquiring new affiliates versus building their own traffic.
Also please stop throwing around numbers like 500 and 1000 active affiliates. A lot of smaller programs here on gfy would kill to have even 50 affiliates who send regular sales.Comment
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That's debatable. If a single program loses it's ability to buy and sell xsales, they might go out of business almost instantly. If all programs had to remove xsales at once, the playing field would still be even... Payouts would have to be dropped across the industry, and each program would still have an active affiliate base to build on.
Xsales are popular because they are legal and make lots of money. If they disappeared, the programs that rely on them will just make less money.Comment
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No offense bud, but I'll listen to the processors who see the back end of this industry. The TRUTH of sales, whales, charge backs, declines, and other shit. I'll bank on their thoughts, predictions, and conclusions other than relying on message board theory.
Again, no offense meant to you personally. Simply saying I will rely on the facts, not theory debate.
What a tasty proposition.
It will send a ripple effect through da biz.Comment
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Good ones can help you with whatever you need, eg: LeRoy from DTI Cash in my sig, he is awesome. Totally goes the extra mile.
Hell dude, a good rep will just call you up and bounce ideas around if you ask them to. Say you don't have any business partners, enter the good affiliate rep and you have a second opinion on whatever. Also it is important that they not steal your ideas but perhaps give you some or brainstorm WITH you.
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I completely agree.
My friends, and I have been saying this for about 18-24 months now. The way the industry is moving. It will become survival of the smallest. Those who can control their costs, and have little overhead, and can quickly change with the trends, and have some money in the bank.
Prime example are clip store owners.
While you see a lot of boo-fucking-hooing on the industry boards. I talk to a number of clip store owners who sales are the same, or better than before. They are almost unaffected. They are in their niches, and their sales continue, they have next to no overhead costs and laughing all the way to the bank.
I think the days of the hundreds of monoliths will have a hard time surviving. But, I do think that Brazzzers will be the dominant online adult company for content and traffic within 12 months.
They have already taken over a large chunk of the traffic. They are now investing a lot of money into their own productions and content. I think they will simply be able to outspend everyone within a year. No one will be able to keep up.
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If Brazzers wants to run it all, they need to branch out and get content from A VARIETY of legit independent producers IMO. Otherwise the content is all good but often appears just too similar, like a BRAND.
Nothing wrong with that but it is often easy enough to spot that surfers identify, use, then get bored with. Thereby leaving market share for independents or other brands like Playboy or whomever.Comment
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They moved productions from L.A. to Vegas, and now to south Florida. So I am thinking they will have that covered in variety. Or will have it soon enough at the rate they are going. Different models, and producers for different areas of the country.
Plus xxxjay said they are also starting their tube in niche markets. So my guess is they will start investing in the production of that shit as well.Last edited by Barefootsies; 08-15-2009, 09:58 AM.Comment
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Yeah, just saying if they want to cover all the bases grab some even myspace style or self shot any niches that have solid 2257.Comment
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I have been running mom and pop sites since the nineties and they are very consistent earners. Its not gross income that counts in business. Its not traffic volume. Its not even coversion ratios. Its not how pretty the talent is or how pretty your sites look. Its your current bank balance and investment portfolio that counts.I completely agree.
My friends, and I have been saying this for about 18-24 months now. The way the industry is moving. It will become survival of the smallest. Those who can control their costs, and have little overhead, and can quickly change with the trends, and have some money in the bank.
Prime example are clip store owners.
While you see a lot of boo-fucking-hooing on the industry boards. I talk to a number of clip store owners who sales are the same, or better than before. They are almost unaffected. They are in their niches, and their sales continue, they have next to no overhead costs and laughing all the way to the bank.
I think the days of the hundreds of monoliths will have a hard time surviving. But, I do think that Brazzzers will be the dominant online adult company for content and traffic within 12 months.
They have already taken over a large chunk of the traffic. They are now investing a lot of money into their own productions and content. I think they will simply be able to outspend everyone within a year. No one will be able to keep up.
Brazzers is smart if they are now doing their own content, because ultimately content is king, no matter what anyone says. Its an old debate, but it is playing itself out for real at the moment.Comment
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You said that shit well, and summed it up nicely. Fucking excellent!
I have been saying that same shit when people bust my balls about my own sites and content. How it is not as pretty as the BROS the girls are plain Jane's. Not everyone wants Euro chicks, or glam.
Content has always been king and traffic the queen. Only retards have thought otherwise.
All the traffic in the world does not mean shit if you have nothing quality to sell them.
Bravo my friend. Simply bravo.
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You said that shit well, and summed it up nicely. Fucking excellent!
I have been saying that same shit when people bust my balls about my own sites and content. How it is not as pretty as the BROS the girls are plain Jane's. Not everyone wants Euro chicks, or glam.
Content has always been king and traffic the queen. Only retards have thought otherwise.
All the traffic in the world does not mean shit if you have nothing quality to sell them.
Bravo my friend. Simply bravo.
We are not in the pretty business. We are in the sex business.Comment
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Or more accurately, the SALES business.
As I've said before in other threads. Most of us are not paid in e-penis Alexa ranking. We are paid on the SALES of whatever we are peddling.... porn.
I make good money in this industry. But I am a businessman. I am not a photographer. I am not interested in being a top notch photographer, nor branding out beyond my skill set and interest into other niches.
I could care less about my status on some message board with a bunch of unknowns, or what the general industry thinks of my sites and content. It sells to my customer base, and they keep on buying and keeping me in business. My production costs are recouped in 30-45 days. Life is good.
I am in this business to MAKE MONEY.
Ego, knowing everything, being a BRO.... none of that shit pays my bills. I do not care about it either nor claim to be those things. I am a small niche player, and production company who listens, and reads, and pays attention. I am simply a business man who makes a good living doing what I love in my own specialized hobbies and passions. It is fun with a pay check for me.Last edited by Barefootsies; 08-15-2009, 10:53 AM.Comment
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I like Dean Capture's work, but that isn't what everyone jerks off to. I personally think cams like Video Secrets are cool, we know they are not photoshopped and they sell.Comment
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