i'd much rather the sponsor just be honest about sign ups and pay less per. at the end of the day it would be the same amount pretty much, except you can sleep at night knowing you're not dealing with people who steal your traffic. thats pretty much what it comes down to. just because they offer you more per sign up, doesn't give them a right to shave.

I kind of agree that you won't get every cent your traffic is worth. For example, per signup you are missing out on the recurring, and for rev share you are lucky if you make the same or more, depending on the retention of the site. But I would rather that the sponsor be honest with their dealings with me.

how much money was there to be made online around that time ? i didn't get on the net till like 95

Funny, you say that, but the traffic is what talks. Someone throws up a $70 payout or a $75 day and everyone's traffic moves in that direction.

Resellers don't send traffic to recurring for the most part, they don't send traffic to $25 per join programs, they DO send their traffic to the best converting or the highest payout, regardless of the amounts on the checks from any of them...

if i see a program offering like 60 bux per and they have a basic cookie cutter site and members area filled with plug in content, its obvious they're shaving and i look elsewhere.

i'm sure a lot of noobs will be drooling at all the money they'll make on that same program, then wonder where all the money is when they 500 hits a month don't get any sign ups.

Is it just me or is setgo hard to load at the moment ?

DOS attack maybe ?

One can certainly begin to get that impression at times. My take on it is that the industry isn't really all that bad, as frontiers go. Sure, there's some bandits, pirates and theives about, but the majority of the adult web is ethical, hardworking and honest.

Unfortunately, it appears that the greed of some is no longer satisfied with fleecing surfers but has turned to exploitation of webmasters. No surprise there, since the flood of new (read: naive) surfers has slowed recently while there's been a surge of newcomers into our industry.

The market is now saturated with overused content, overexposed programs and tons of free porn and, in the meantime, the average surfer has become more sophisticated. It's a lot tougher sell nowadays. But there are some who got used to that easy money made a few years ago. Easy money that came from jerking the surfer around. So, they've set there sights on other game.

However, webmasters are going to prove to be a bit handier in dealing with this scum than the surfer. Questionable practices that were tolerated when directed towards nameless surfers are going to end some careers when tried on webmasters. We can look forward to a good deal of rock'n'roll in the next year...

ok
question for the peanut gallery...
you run a program that pays $35 per signup

Webmaster A sends 10 signsup a day, but only 1 of those ever converts to a full month membership
Webmaster B sends 10 signups a day of which 8 recur to full month
the average surfer in your program converts 6-7 of 10 from every trial...

do you keep paying Webmaster A the same as Webmaster B, or do you find reason to terminate them? or if it's available in your software, do you shave Webmaster A since their traffic grossly unproductive in comparison with Webmaster B and your "normal" traffic?

while it is easy to blame poor conversions on bad member's areas, there is some traffic that's worse than others when it comes to retention....depending upon how the traffic is sent (advertising methods)...

now, don't think like affiliates, rather, think like program owners...your bottomline is greatly disrupted by Webmaster A's shitty traffic and what if he increases his traffic to 100 joins per day with the same shitty ratios? now you're losing all or nearly all of the money you're paying to "average webmasters" and even your good traffic sender like Webmaster B....


you probably won't have to worry about shaving in about 6 months...99% of all traffic will probably only be done via private deals and "people you know" newbies and a lot of TGP gallery hobbiests will be shit out of luck....ok, it may take 12 months to come to that, but it's most likely going to happen....or you'll have to prove your traffics's worth by sending to a revshare program FIRST and if conversions are good enough, be allowed to join the per signup program....kind of a probation period, if you will


:2 cents:

All this shaving justification from Syk makes me nervous about his programs. :)

that's exactly why we've stayed as a revshare program :)
people who send better covnerting traffic make more....those who send lesser quality make less :)

Then they shouldn't advertise themselves as "$5BILLION PER ****TRIAL**** SIGNUP! FLAT! NO RATIOS!"

This whole "this business is cutthroat so it's okay to steal" shit is lame. Hate to tell everyone, but it's not okay to steal because you're in a competitive business. Not sure where that retarded idea even originated. It's all rationalization in order to make thieves feel better about themselves.

So what about partnership programs then too, is there an incentive or desire for them to shave other than greed ?

BV.

twice today you've claimed knowledge that a webmaster using a third party processor's revshare/partnership software can shave signups.

I read your excuse for not revealing what you know, or claim to know, and it was weak.

I also think IBILL, CCBILL, GLOBILL, JETTIS etc should speak up on this, defend their software if they can.

Many webmasters do throw their traffic at revshare programs because they believe that they will get the fairest shake from somebody using third party software they can't tamper with.

If it's not so, you would be doing many more webmasters a favor revealing what you know than harm by giving out info that might lead somebody to use the info you give out to screw over people.

I think if a company deals with a big enough volume of traffic and is prepared to deal with the fraud and poor convertions along with the good soild 3-4 month retentions. Then they can run a persignup program without stealing from a webmaster. If they tell you $35 a signup then they should be prepared to do that. If they say $35 persignup for the signups that we feel you earned then they turn on the Mach3 Percision adjuster

How logistically possible is it for them to pay per-signup on a sliding scale based on productivity without needing to shave ?

Even if they could I doubt any of them would. They're thinking shorter term now rather than long term. It's easier to get all the traffic, offer higher payouts than they should, and upsell much of it to the other larger paysites than it is to work on their own membership retention. Less risk for them because they don't have to worry as much about retention. You see them cross-billing more and more now, with the extra checkboxes to get them signed up at other sites at the same time.

while I agree with this, one thing you have to think about is...the affiliates...how many sign up for a revshare program? most flock to the per signups, no matter how outrageous the claims...they accuse program owners of being shortsighted, when THEY are the shortsighted ones...going for the one time, fast up front payout as opposed to building a steady income...

While revshare programs can certainly shave, there is less incentive because a webmaster is truly being paid what their traffic is worth...

I'm not slamming PPS signups as a whole (we send to some as well) it's just that they would be more pre-disposed to it...

ok, if I opened a per signup program and had the terms "$35 per signup, but if your ratios suck ass, we reserve the right to terminate you" affiliates would freak out and avoid joining en masse....as they should as there is no way to prove what the ratios truly were...

bottomline, trust who you're sending your traffic to or don't send it....

:glugglug

yup, we even toyed with the idea of crossbilling, but decided against it...

I love the idea of conversion based per signup...hmmm, might be worth looking in to......

I agree with you about who the short sighted people are.

But I don't think the fact that big shiny letters that say "$50 PER SIGNUP" attracts people means it's okay to steal. ;)

There is no other business around where you can make outright lies and get away with it.

Ford can't tell you their cars will last for 500 years and make you breakfast every morning. That would certainly increase their sales.

Pepsi can't say that drinking Pepsi reduces the risk of cancer and each time you open a pepsi a $5 bill appears in your wallet. Again, that would increase sales.

It's too bad the pay per signup programs are victims of their own stupidity by promising what they can't deliver. But that doesn't mean it's okay for them to steal in order to appear to fulfill those promises.

And yes. ;) A good partnership program is the best thing there is around. :) I have rebills up into the 35+ month range on some sites now. It's nice getting paid for a page I built 3+ years ago. hehe.

Very good point. I only work per signup for the reason that I don't want the risk factor. As a search engine marketer, I want a guaranteed flat rate. I'm willing to forgo some profits for a fixed rate. If the adult company can retain those members for a long time, then congrats to them, they deserve to keep the extra profit. If it means I come under the shave, so be it. For many webmasters, they don't want to wait for months to get the total value from a customer. For me, my business is to lead people from the search engine to the adult company. Once they've converted it's the adult companies responsibility to retain them as long as possible and since i have no influence or control over this factor, I insist on per signup. I'm not bashing revshare, I'm just saying that per signup is a more viable option for those webmasters who want to minimize risk.

WG

What he said

we don't shave and we have a model of our own.
thats $1 memberships for a month the surfer doesn't feel pressured to cancel and we have enough content to last a life time.

our payout might not be high but its fare $25 per dollar trial.
so it comes down to conversions to track your traffic and what you make at the end of the day.

We don't shave cause we know how to convert traffic to trial and trial to active and then retention.

We have always focused on Paysites for 7 years and we have also lost our ass using certain processors before on free trials but we never shaved. we just switched our model and tweaked shit till we profited but we never fucked the webmaster for our misstakes.

so test us out and let us make you the money you deserve.

fuck it if you don't convert well I will reverse shave and credit joins

Rock on

Not all sponsors cheat

what would you do if one webmaster's traffic had 1/10th the conversions from trial to monthly than the normal rate? 1/20th? 1/50?

I'm not slamming your program (hell, we're sending a smattering of exits there) I'm just curious as to how one deals with something like this....

lol, 3-4 month retention for most big sites is being GENEROUS! If they actually tried to retain maybe they wouldnt have to shave :thumbsup

If we have a webmaster that has a very high chargeback or when they all cancel on the trial we know we are being screwed so we contact them and try to help them promote us better or if its just fraud most of the time they don't responed
and we shut there acount off.

But it depends on many things, I have never turned anyone off yet for bad traffic on P4D/freefreeprogram only the scammers.
Knock on wood

In the past with other programs we always paid them out but told the webmaster to pull there traffic.
or if I wasn't converting I would let them know to pull there traffic till I tweaked everything and made them the most I could.
Ask anyone

hopefully that made sence

I posted this in the other thread about shaving.

a big reason why i go to per sign up instead of revshare is i want to see the members area for revshare. most members area's suck shit and you don't find out until you start making 2 bux a sign up over the past week or so. its bs.

yes there is =)

this is quite humurous to see some of the things people write here without thinking before they type.... for that matter, without doing simple calculations or knowing industry-standard statistics.... that's all i will say on this matter....

Ditto! ;) Are you getting shy on us Kman? lol

You didn't really say anything yet.
Speak up.

...and if a member's area is shit with a PPS and they just shave you 1 of every 4-5 signups.......?

After all is said and done nothing will come out of this. Dollars4all may have to close up shop and come back under a diferent name, but that's only cuz he's small. How many times has CEN been caught with it's hand in the cookie jar and not a damn thing happened? I remember when they were declining perfectly good credit cards, then redirecting the surfer ( with credit card and dick still in hand ) to sites where he could sign up, but the refering webmaster would not get credit for the join. People talked about it for a day or two, then the subject was dropped and CEN just kept on keeping on.
What the webmasters of today need is more disgruntled employees from big sponsors.

I have noticed this.

With ccbill/ibill revshare sites the number of transactions is normally steady.

With per sign up places I find crazy swings, no sign ups for days then suddenly lots. Much more up and down.

Mutt,

I made that 1 post yesterday. I also gave NO excuses about revealing or not revealing, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Actually that's the reason I made the post. Do webmasters a favor as you say. I also was trying to make the point that anyone can shave if they want. Some more likely than others. For me it's the last thing in the world I want to do or any smart & decent business man would want to do. You want your webmasters to be happy so they can keep sending traffic and also maybe spread the word to their friends. In order to do that you can't shave them!

I have a very small but loyal amount of webmasters that make money and have been with me for quite a long time.

BUT I have no where near the amount that affiliates with a larger per sign up program seem to have.

Sadly it is true what Kimmy Kim says and most webmasters already know; that the masses flock to the big "advertized" pay out sponsors.

Same rules apply to adult biz as in real life: (You don't get something for nothing.) Why would it be any different here?



But anyways with that out of the way,here is one way:
http://www.bikinivoyeur.com/ccbill-cap.gif



Cheers!
BV

NOBODY shaves....shaving is politically incorrect term.
it's now called:
network outage
d/b glitch
"we were down but were counting all your sign ups anyway"
"we are honest, but the programmer who wrote the software is not"
"we never cum in your mouth since 1995"

Hahaha, Serge, too bad everybody doesn't use MKStats, it would be so much easier ;)

WOW so you can say, turn off revshare after 3 rebills.. Hmmm

Andre

Are the billing companys(ibill,ccbill,epoc,etc.) awear of "shaving". If they are not, should'nt they be made awear? Im sure if we made a big public stink about it, somthing would be done.

If I were a billing company and a big player would come to me and tell me,

"hey I bring 200 sign ups a day to a site you provide billing for, I believe thay are shaving my income. If you dont investigate Ill gladly send my traffic to another site with another billing provider"

I would definatly investigate!!!

My :2 cents:

Later