some reading material for nation-x
http://sunlightfoundation.com/pressc...nd-trade-bill/
http://readthebill.org/cases/
http://sunlightfoundation.com/pressc...nd-trade-bill/
http://readthebill.org/cases/
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haha.. some of you fucking idiots claiming you read the bill? really? when? its something like 1300 pages and 300 pages were added friday night (which were read on the house floor by the minority leader so people would have some concept of what they were voting for).
now we have a new phrase - ObamatardsComment
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i've lived i thailand. the only news i care about there is the bit of news where i live in a plush serviced apartment, work my ass off, go fuck whores as a tourist spending cash, people smile to my face even though we both know they don't like me, i keep my head down and my nose clean and everyone ignores me while i ignore them ... and we are all on the same page... regardless of which group of fucking clowns is trying to overthrow the government of the moment.Out of all the stupid shit in this thread, this made me laugh the most
Watching one of those 150 news channels would make you sick to your stomach PP. Honeymoon period might be over in the US, but foreign news channels don't give a shit about domestic policies, they love the man, in their eyes he can do no wrong.
It is bad news... good news... I am moving to Thailand for a couple of years that made me laugh though... if only you knew a little about Thai "politics"
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Well, thank god WE do not have read 1300 pages to understand what it's talking about or have enough info to draw an opionion on it. Like so many in this post are doing.
People that have to vote on it, yeah they need to read it in detail. I'm glad that's what these people do for a living, it's not like they are shocked by 300 pages.. Hell, at that 1300 pages in details is only a couple hour read anyway.
But even then, if you don't really understand business, trends, global growth, and lots of other shit.. you will never see the big picture.
Our right radio here and the tv is all over this subject and we have no shortage of information about it online. Like most bills, it's not hard to find info on them.
A responsible American isn't going to simply listen to trash right radio or left morons and decide if they do or do not agree with something.....
~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
It's all disambiguation
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Aren't you Canadian? If not, did you voice your opionion to the proper people, rather than to gfy? I'm going to say no.
Odd thing about all this. Most Americans seem to want this and a minor amount of other people don't, this is only one of many examples of this. It's odd how this minority is getting kicked in the balls by the exact system they pretend to support.
It's equally odd how the left call the media right and the right call the media left. ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
It's all disambiguationComment
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The entire bill is available at http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h2454/text and you can see what changes have been made to it (as I posted multiple times in this thread). The bill has been there since right after my birthday in May.Comment
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Again... you seem to be stuck somewhere. The entire bill has been online for over 6 weeks and any changes are detailed right there so you can see. What part of that didn't you understand? They didn't add 300 pages to the bill... that is a lie. I am totally down with the 72 hour waiting period though... but I suspect that time wouldn't be used to review the bill... it would be used to posture and complain.Comment
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Interesting point. Basically the strategy is to penalize existing fossil sources of energy by making it very expensive. This then works as a subsidy for expensive alternatives to reach a critical mass and get to a tipping point. The hope is that these alternatives will get cheaper with volume and with successive waves of newer and more efficient versions.
Sounds noble and everything but I agree with you regarding the TIMING of this initiative.Comment
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That claim is so Orwellian and outlandish that even the most delusional and starry eyed Obama supporter would not try and defend that claim. In general the media has made a concerted effort to refer to the bill as "climate change" legislation as opposed to the far more accurate "energy tax".
As to the other discussion regarding transparency:
The 300 pages of last minute amendments had not even been incorporated into the bill when it was voted on. There was not an actual printed copy of the final bill even printed before the vote. The absurd claim that this bill was read and understood in its entirety by the members before passage is so patently ridiculous that it is not even worth a discussion.
Last edited by cykoe6; 06-28-2009, 02:57 PM.бабки, шлюхи, силаComment
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all the time.....so used to get used to it....or fucking run for congress....you hypocrite........change comes SLOWLY especially dealing with the government.......god you people are STUPID!
this aint going to happen the first year......maybe you might will see some improvement in the next......but overnight......you guys are turning out to be as lame as the chicks posing for the content!
DUMB
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O'rly... and what makes you privy to this ridiculous claim... It is not even possible to add amendments to a bill after it has been voted on.... and what would there be to gain? Nothing. The bill will be sent to the Senate where they will debate and make amendments until passage at which time it will go to conference.The 300 pages of last minute amendments had not even been incorporated into the bill when it was voted on. There was not an actual printed copy of the final bill even printed before the vote. The absurd claim that this bill was read and understood in its entirety by the members before passage is so patently ridiculous that it is not even worth a discussion.Comment
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I don't think anyone ever expects the initial version of bills to pass. Obama is wisely making them extreme so that the watered-down version seems plausible when in fact pre-Obama the watered-down version would have been seen as extreme. It's like a $5 domain with an asking price of $10,000 and the owner decides that today's special is only $1,000, which seems awesome compared to $10,000 but is still ridiculous *coughmangotubecough*.Want to crush it in mainstream with Facebook ads? Hit me up.Comment
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We do all know this bill hasn't passed the Senate yet right?
There is a pretty good chance it won't, or at least not in its current form.
If it does pass it will hurt the middle and lower class more than anyone. According to the CDA study there will be on overall increase in expenses for the average family of around $2,979 per year. That won't be tomorrow, it will come gradually over time. Over the last 18 years the average household income in the nation has increased around $10,000 per year so for many it isn't going to kill them, but it will take up nearly 30% of that increased income which is pretty insane.
The real problem will come if they can't develop enough renewable and green energy sources during that time. If they can they can lower the costs again, but if they can't the actual cost could be much higher than the estimates.
There is, of course, also the chance that if this passes and is signed when Obama leaves office in 4 or 8 years his predecessor immediately takes action to repeal this.Comment
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What does this have to do with Micheal?Like the desert needs the rain
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Name a single piece of legislation that has been repealed in the last 20 years. Doubtful that will happen. I just think all of this talk about cap and trade taxing people is just fucking stupid. The very premise of that argument is retarded. The goal is to get us off foreign oil and encourage investment in domestic energy. If you look back through the thread, I made a post showing that some of the biggest energy companies in the world are behind this legislation. In addition, Bush Sr. passed the Clean Air Act in 1990 that instituted a cap and trade system for Sulfur Dioxide emissions and that system is running fine (although it could use some changes as well). So... it's not like this is uncharted territory or anything. From my view, the whole opposition to the bill is purely that... just opposition with no real arguments other than "energy tax" talking points. It would seem to me that the right would be interested in promoting this legislation since it WILL create jobs by spurning investment in renewable energy sources and projects. If that weren't the case, it would have the wide support in the business community that it has... especially from energy companies like Shell and BP.Comment
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My main source is the Washington Examiner:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/op...-49208987.html
But since you are likely to refuse to rely on any media source which is not firmly in Obama's pocket how about Politico?Through a series of parliamentary inquiries, the Republicans learned that the 300-plus page managers' amendment, added to the bill last night in the House Rules Committee, has not even been been integrated with the official copy of the 1,090-page bill at the House Clerk's desk, let alone in any other location. The two documents are side-by-side at the desk as the clerk reads through the instructions in the 300 page document for altering the 1,090 page document.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories...232_Page2.html
Anyway I understand that your modus operandi is to degenerate all sources and ignore all facts which don't support your underlying assumption that Obama is a great and transformative force for hope and change so I expect your response to be as condescending and ridiculous as usual.Donning reading glasses, Boehner then delayed the roll call vote by reading page-by-page through a 300-page managers? amendment Democrats added at around 3 a.m. on Friday. Boehner seemed to relish the hour-long stunt, picking out the bill?s most obscure language and then pontificating about what it might ? or might not ? mean. Republicans laughed along with him and roared with applause when he was done.
Anyway I find it pointless to argue with someone who bends all the facts to support their preconceived underlying assumptions. It gives me a headache.
бабки, шлюхи, силаComment
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The goal, is to make the prices of energy "necessarily skyrocket" to use Obama's words.
that will happen in a recession and happen with NO VIABLE ALTERNATIVE.
and guess which socio-economic group spends the greater % of their income on gas, electricity and energy? the poor and middle class. you know.. that engine of the economy who your boys have been saying needs all the breaks they can get because when they succeed, the economy succeeds?
How about this for a single piece of legislation???? Clintons Luxury Tax was repealed because everyone in their zeal to make "rich people pay their fair share" didn't stop to think about what it means to make condo sales, boat sales, plane sales and jewlery sales plummet... costing countless middle class jobs.Comment
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By Jim Tankersley
June 27, 2009
Reporting from Washington -- The sweeping energy and global warming bill passed by the House on Friday was as complicated as it was contentious. The measure started the day at 1,200 pages -- and that was before lawmakers adopted a 300-page amendment.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,7695457.story
Notice the date Einstein?
once again, 25% of the bill being put to a vote before anyone could even read it. No different than the "stimulus bill" except no one got to read that whole thing in its entirety before voting on it.
You fucking idiots are trying to tell everyone how informed you are in a weak attempt to undermine anyone's opinion on the issue and want people to believe you basically sat down and basically read the legislative equivalent of Tolstoy's War and Peace because you care?
Really?
You're lying.
And at least i'm honest in my arguments... with myself and with others. I have my views and i don't need to fabricate facts or lie about who and what i am and what i believe in to make a point.
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Opinion does not equal fact...
First of all... I look at all types of news sources... not just liberal ones. If you look at opencongress.org you will see that the majority of the users are conservatives. I read quite a few right wing new sources. Those "manager amendments" aren't secret pages... I watched him go on about that shit on c-span and everything he read is in the changes section on opencongress.org. The funny thing to me is that you believe that shit.
I read the bill. Not only that... I listened to the hearings and debate about it on c-span. So whatever... it's just like the stupid motherfuckers that said there was $30M to protect a mouse during the stimulus bill debate. 99% of the shit they say is bullshit.You say I am bending facts... but that isn't the truth... the people who are bending the facts are the GOP.Anyway I understand that your modus operandi is to degenerate all sources and ignore all facts which don't support your underlying assumption that Obama is a great and transformative force for hope and change so I expect your response to be as condescending and ridiculous as usual.
Anyway I find it pointless to argue with someone who bends all the facts to support their preconceived underlying assumptions. It gives me a headache.Last edited by nation-x; 06-28-2009, 04:27 PM.Comment
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No you are not honest... you are just repeating what the media is saying (which is a parroting of the GOP talking points)... I showed you the bill and all of the changes that were made to it... if you can't discern the truth of the matter that is your problem. You would just rather believe the same people that have been lying to you for years over reading the facts for yourself like I do.Last edited by nation-x; 06-28-2009, 04:28 PM.Comment
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according to nation-x.... making your energy costs "skyrocket" isn't really going to hurt you or the economy at all. apparently, neither is the fact that all companies are going to pass these new expenses to you when you buy consumer goods.Comment
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Anyway... I am done arguing with you stupid motherfuckers over a GOP talking point. As I posted earlier in the thread... it doesn't matter if I show you the facts... you will just continue to believe the bullshit that the GOP is feeding you just like all of the rest of the sheep that are always posting crap like this. You GFY conservatives are funny to me... because the same motherfuckers that you agree with are the motherfuckers that would put you out of business in a heartbeat... you make me fucking sick. Just because I support this agenda doesn't mean I am a "Obamabot" or whatever you motherfuckers want to call me. There are plenty of issues I don't agree with Obama on... this just isn't one of them.Comment
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Fact... Obama himself said energy costs will skyrocket as a direct result of this bill. that in itself is more than enough to form an opinion on... discounting all the news i've read and ALSO watching CSPAN as the House Minority Leader read the last minute 300 pages to everyone just so people would know what they were voting on.
Odd... how anyone who has a different view than you is just brainwashed and uninformed. How convenient. Not surprisingly, it means you really don't have to think for yourself and you can eliminate any critical thinking from the equation since your own opinions become gospel and those who disagree with you are quickly labeled as idiots and heretics, brainwashed by the media.
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I am not worried... I will get the last laugh because none of the shit you are saying will happen.Fact... Obama himself said energy costs will skyrocket as a direct result of this bill. that in itself is more than enough to form an opinion on... discounting all the news i've read and ALSO watching CSPAN as the House Minority Leader read the last minute 300 pages to everyone just so people would know what they were voting on.
Odd... how anyone who has a different view than you is just brainwashed and uninformed. How convenient. Not surprisingly, it means you really don't have to think for yourself and you can eliminate any critical thinking from the equation since your own opinions become gospel and those who disagree with you are quickly labeled as idiots and heretics, brainwashed by the media.
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Yea we understand......... anyone who does not mindlessly parrot your Huffpo generated wisdom is a brainwashed sheeple. You endlessly rant about how you have shown people the "facts" and they are stubbornly refusing to accept them........ but we have not yet gotten to the point where unsupported declarations made by starry eyed leftists can be considered objective facts. Maybe Obama can fix that too.
бабки, шлюхи, силаComment
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FACT: Obama specifically said energy costs will skyrocket as a direct result of this bill
Can you refute that?
What are you trying to "debate"?
I am talking about the massive economic costs of this bill to the economy and to an economy that is in recession and to poor and middle class people. Obama agrees with me. You don't. Yet you are claiming to agree with the bill... but you say i'm not making sense.Last edited by Pleasurepays; 06-28-2009, 04:51 PM.Comment
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I watched the video and I know what he said there... but that clip doesn't show the complete context of what he said and we both know that he is long winded. You are correct, I agree with the bill because I think it spurns reinvestment in domestic production and will lead us into this century with a goal and purpose. There will be costs in the short term but I think that those are investments that will bear fruit over the long term. If we continue to just talk about freeing ourselves from foreign energy we will achieve nothing. I can't claim to understand every word in the bill... but I got the huge gist of it and it does what it says it does. It creates alot of opportunity for entrepreneurs and investors who invest in domestic energy production and puts a price on doing things the old way. It also provides a reasonable length of time for it's mandates to take effect which guarantees growth in the new energy economy over the next 11 years and provides ample time for existing companies to retrofit. It also creates a market of carbon credits that will earn billions for companies that bank those credits. A smart CEO (of an existing excessive carbon emitting corporation) will invest in these credit banking companies and offset the cost of the retrofit. Look at the us-cap.org site (this isn't a liberal or conservative website) which I posted about here and you will see that the the backers of this bill are NOT all liberals. This bill has wide support among businesses. Just because the Chamber of Commerce is against it doesn't mean much. That organization has been right wing for years and typically follows the crowd.
The bottom line is this... I think the bill is a good idea. You don't but you base all of your arguments on the GOP talking points (that get repeated a million times by every conservative news source on the planet) instead of actually doing the research to decide for yourself. I always tell you that this is what I do but you never believe me. That is your problem not mine.
Listen... I check everybody... I don't believe all of the shit that Democrats say either... I check for myself. It just so happens that the majority of the time the GOP uses bullshit and lies to support their positions instead of just using common sense and facts. I can prove it... and I did with the "300 pages added" lie that you keep repeating. The 300 pages they are referring to are the markup that you can plainly see if you look at the changes to the bill as posted on opencongress.org... pure and simple.Comment
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I am sitting here wondering why you keep talking about Huffington Post when I haven't used that blog as a news source in any of our discussion here. You also say that I made "unsupported declarations" which is just stupid really... because I posted EXACTLY how to verify what I am saying but you would rather believe a talking point then investigate for yourself because that is what you seem to be good at.Yea we understand......... anyone who does not mindlessly parrot your Huffpo generated wisdom is a brainwashed sheeple. You endlessly rant about how you have shown people the "facts" and they are stubbornly refusing to accept them........ but we have not yet gotten to the point where unsupported declarations made by starry eyed leftists can be considered objective facts. Maybe Obama can fix that too.Comment
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Where is this change we can believe in?I would comment on this thread but I have learned that it doesn't matter if I present the current facts or not you will only ignore them and continue to spout your continual right wing bullshit.
I will say that Cap and Trade has already been in effect for Sulfur Dioxide since 1990 or so when Bush Sr. signed it into law. Google "Clean Air Act" to see the facts. Funny thing is that the right wingers didn't say any of this bullshit then. The real facts are that the CBO has estimated only a $175/year increase in costs and since states set the price for electrical energy... I don't think any energy companies are going to start gouging customers any time soon.
No kidding.
I like you, but your ideologies are inane.
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I like you too and respect your opinion... and I am not going to argue with you either. The beautiful thing about this country is that everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. The other thing about our country for my entire life is that no matter what... it didn't really matter what I thought anyway because it wouldn't make a difference and the whole thing is a sham... anyway. I just know I would like it to not be the way it is has been and I am willing to give a new plan a chance with hope that it works. The whole thing is really beyond me anyway and everyone that posts on this board... none of us have power to change it if we are divided.Comment
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I can proudly say I was one of the few Americans that wrote and called his Congressman daily to get him to oppose this bill. Sadly, my calls and letters were forgotten come time for the final vote. Did I mention we only lost by 8 fucking votes? 7, for a tie, but good ol' Biden would have come in and fixed that right up
But for those that give a damn about things around you that affect you, I salute you!
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Wall Street Journal > Dow Jones & Company > News Corporation > Rupert Murdoch
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Obama is smarter than every webmaster on this board including myself. Very intelligent and compasionate. Let the man do his job, he has a plan and its bigger than we can comprehend. So chill the fuck out. Its gonna be tought to undo the fuck up GW created, but Obama is gonna do his best Im sure.Got Dating Traffic?
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All this bill is, is a Government sanctioned ENRON style ponzi scheme. It doesn't really matter what these fools pass anymore there will be loads of past and present political figures facing lynch mobs before it's all over. That is unless they get lucky and some break off and start turning on the others to save their own ass before it gets to that point.PLEASE WAIT WHILE BIDEN ADMIN UNINSTALLS ITSELF.....
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