Do you know who Ernesto "Che" Guevara is?

[WWC]

Great performance by my pal Benicio Del Toro.... educational too...

Rent the movie " Che "....cool flick....never knew much about Cuba and i have always had an interest so i have been studying Cuba and the revolutionary world affects it had caused...interesting stuff. This guy was a cool cat....

I think Che added to one of my favorite list from Cuba :-) .... oh and Antonio Montana of course

[Sands]

He makes t-shirts, right?

[JamesK]

Benicio Del Toro is amazing, so is the movie. I haven't watched part 2 yet but I've read Guevara's story before.

[quiet]

read (don't watch) the motorcycle diaries.

[WWC]

Originally Posted by JamesK

Benicio Del Toro is amazing, so is the movie. I haven't watched part 2 yet but I've read Guevara's story before.

oh man, you gotta see it! I rented both at the same time and watched it back to back.... loved it..

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

I read Che's "Guerilla Warfare" as a teenager, as well as some of his diaries.

Although I disagreed with some of his practices, his passion for the plight of the common person confronted with corrupt entrenched politicians, left an indelible imprint upon my mind.

ADG

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

Originally Posted by Sands

He makes t-shirts, right?

Your confusing him with that Zig-Zag dude...





ADG

[michael.kickass]

I know the story, haven't seen any movie so far...

[seeandsee]

Originally Posted by WWC-Raffi

Great performance by my pal Benicio Del Toro.... educational too...

Rent the movie " Che "....cool flick....never knew much about Cuba and i have always had an interest so i have been studying Cuba and the revolutionary world affects it had caused...interesting stuff. This guy was a cool cat....

I think Che added to one of my favorite list from Cuba :-) .... oh and Antonio Montana of course

He is some fancy superstaR?

[Antonio]

[mikesouth]

sure i do he mows my lawn

[voa]

One of the most influence people in mankind history

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

I read Che's "Guerilla Warfare" as a teenager, as well as some of his diaries.

Although I disagreed with some of his practices, his passion for the plight of the common person confronted with corrupt entrenched politicians, left an indelible imprint upon my mind.

ADG

Really?

His "passion"?

Why is it that all revolutionaries who are so "passionate about the plight of the common man" end up getting power of building an even more oppressive regime and state than the one that existed before? odd that murder on a mass scale and murdering innocent people is always a part of that "passion" for "doing whats right"

The obvious answer is that the line of bullshit that serves as the rallying cry has to be something to appeal to the fucking morons that are willing to pick up a gun and go get shot for the "passionate one"

This guy was a stone cold murderer and no better than any other armed thug with "a cause" and "the cause" is always that thing used to mask the real purpose of fighting... to gain power... and they got their wish. A lifelong dictator, creating an impoverished country, silencing and imprisoning dissidents, controlling the media etc out of that same purported "passion for the plight of the common man"


"We must say here what is a known truth, which we have always expressed before the world: firing squad executions, yes, we have executed; we are executing and we will continue to execute as long as is necessary. Our struggle is a struggle to the death."

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna
UN General Assembly, 1964


Where is the line between "passion" and "psychopathic"?


What's next? Maybe Stalin shirts will become popular and we can forget that Stalin murdered 40+ million of his own people because of his "passion". Maybe we can Mao shirts can be popular and we can forget about a "cultural revolution" that largely started by using kids to snitch on their parents and teachers and any adult or authority figure, after which, they were snatched up and disappeared. That list can go on and on and on forever.

After all, they were all about "passion" as well for the "common man".

Every brutal and oppressive government in history started with the same bullshit about "passion for the plight of the common man"... but it seems obvious, that once you have chosen to pick up a gun and start killing people, and killing innocent people, including other "common men" who happen to disagree with your political views, compassion probably isn't one of your biggest virtues or priorities.

There are few things more annoying to me than watching all of idiots in the world, in love with a t shirt and who have no idea what horrors, crimes against humanity and what suffering lie behind it... much less thought to even ponder it.
**(restaurants that serve really awesome hot bread.. then bring you little frozen cubes of butter does rank slightly higher than this particular annoyance - the Armenians who bitch about remembering the "armenian genocide" but seem to be very willing to forget Armenia's own genocidal efforts against its neighbors, ranks just above the bread thing)

[DEA - banned for life]

is he the guy who mows my lawn every tuesday?

[pornguy]

Its so sad that Castro bastardized everything that He and Che did.

[SmokenCess]

why do potheads praise this man?

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

Really?

His "passion"?

Etc, etc, etc...

You missed my point entirely, and appear indifferent to the conditions, and oppressive, corrupt, and murderous regimes, which Che and other revolutionaries like him sought to, and continue to, seek to overthrow.

I thought I made it clear, but I'll state it again, that I abhor many of the violent practices of Che and others like him. However, I do not think they did so out of homicidal madness, but instead out of a sense of injustice and to liberate oppressed people.

Do the means justify the end? Well, not in a perfect world, but we live in an imperfect world.

I agree that in history, all too often, the oppressed become the oppressors once they obtain power. Sometimes however, they do make life better for their people, however humble their circumstances, and against the power of other countries that wish to maintain the oppressive status quo and exploit the prior oppressive conditions, no matter what the cost is to the common people or society at large.

If they in turn become oppressive, then as a by-product, they may have instilled a similar revolutionary spirit in the generations to follow, which might eventually put their society upon a better course in the future.

That is why I advocate non-violent social change. Unfortunately though, I recognize that many (or perhaps most) people are not able to suffer through and bare the pain that such forms of non-violent civil disobedience entails, especially when they have suffered long-term injustice and pain.

I don't profess to know all of the answers. All I am suggesting is that whatever one's perspective is, to ignore Che and his impact is foolhardy. And I am not talking about superficial things like T-Shirts (as if many of the people peddling them, forward the funds to revolutionaries), or Sandalistas.

Viva la revolucion!

Oh yes, and peace...



ADG

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

Really?

His "passion"?

Why is it that all revolutionaries who are so "passionate about the plight of the common man" end up getting power of building an even more oppressive regime and state than the one that existed before? odd that murder on a mass scale and murdering innocent people is always a part of that "passion" for "doing whats right"

The obvious answer is that the line of bullshit that serves as the rallying cry has to be something to appeal to the fucking morons that are willing to pick up a gun and go get shot for the "passionate one"

This guy was a stone cold murderer and no better than any other armed thug with "a cause" and "the cause" is always that thing used to mask the real purpose of fighting... to gain power... and they got their wish. A lifelong dictator, creating an impoverished country, silencing and imprisoning dissidents, controlling the media etc out of that same purported "passion for the plight of the common man"


"We must say here what is a known truth, which we have always expressed before the world: firing squad executions, yes, we have executed; we are executing and we will continue to execute as long as is necessary. Our struggle is a struggle to the death."

Ernesto "Che" Guevara de la Serna
UN General Assembly, 1964


Where is the line between "passion" and "psychopathic"?


What's next? Maybe Stalin shirts will become popular and we can forget that Stalin murdered 40+ million of his own people because of his "passion". Maybe we can Mao shirts can be popular and we can forget about a "cultural revolution" that largely started by using kids to snitch on their parents and teachers and any adult or authority figure, after which, they were snatched up and disappeared. That list can go on and on and on forever.

After all, they were all about "passion" as well for the "common man".

Every brutal and oppressive government in history started with the same bullshit about "passion for the plight of the common man"... but it seems obvious, that once you have chosen to pick up a gun and start killing people, and killing innocent people, including other "common men" who happen to disagree with your political views, compassion probably isn't one of your biggest virtues or priorities.

There are few things more annoying to me than watching all of idiots in the world, in love with a t shirt and who have no idea what horrors, crimes against humanity and what suffering lie behind it... much less thought to even ponder it.
**(restaurants that serve really awesome hot bread.. then bring you little frozen cubes of butter does rank slightly higher than this particular annoyance - the Armenians who bitch about remembering the "armenian genocide" but seem to be very willing to forget Armenia's own genocidal efforts against its neighbors, ranks just above the bread thing)

thank you for posting a more realistic view on this shit stain.

[Chosen]

I do

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

You missed my point entirely, and appear indifferent to the conditions, and oppressive, corrupt, and murderous regimes, which Che and other revolutionaries like him sought to, and continue to, seek to overthrow.

ADG

that's absolute bullshit. you can't rally people together without a cause to fight. "corruption" Are you kidding me? do you think that Cuba in 1957 or whenever was more corrupt than 1/2 the first and second world nations of 2009?. You've romanticized this idea and take it completely out of context.

You can't simultaneously "abhor" the murder of innocents, the terrorist tactics, the firing squads, the murder of women and children and at the same time say "well, he was well intentioned because he just wanted to help the common man" - anyone can see the obvious contradiction there.

It's very simple. You're poor. You're angry. For whatever reason. You have trained your bitterness on those in power. You have convinced yourself of your righteousness and that of your beliefs and You are ready to "fight".

Whats next?

Well... you need a concept. Something that people can get on board with. And lets take a page straight from "Guerrilla Warfare 101",... you need a concept that undermines the power of the government and at the same time is one that the common person can get behind. So AS WITH ALL REVOLUTIONARIES... you are left with only one realistic avenue. You go on and on about how corrupt, incompetent and dangerous the government is, how little they care about people and how the common man needs a champion and your position yourself as that man. If you're educated.. you start writing. You write a manifesto. You write Mein Kampf. You write The State and Revolution. You write The Analysis of Classes in Chinese Society. If you can't write... then you use some of the more famous writings of other socialists and communists and revolutionaries to validate your cause and legitimize the "struggle" against oppression.

Then... you get power. You consolidate power. You eliminate anyone who opposes you - er... excuse me, they are now referred to as "enemies of the state" and you start building your network of secret police, private villas and Swiss bank accounts.

Revolutions for independence against a foreign occupier are one thing.

Revolutions against your own government, conducted at the expense of people.. your own citizens, murdering, raping, torturing and killing men women and children "for the good of the common man" is quite another and totally indefensible. It is a power play and nothing more... and its all executed against a simple formula, discussed above, time and time again.

[The Professional]

I'd love to see the movie... have to say I don't know too much on the topic yet... but sounds very interesting none the less

[Owner]

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

I see...

Viva la Batista then:



Dick Cheney would approve of that...a friend of the mafia and US corporate interests.

ADG

[Pleasurepays]

well... when i start seeing 15 yr old kids wearing t-shirts of him and flying the flag, i'll happily let them know they are fucking retards.

fair enough?




and lets not confuse national interests with ones personal morality and general righteousness ;)

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

I see...

Viva la Batista then:



Dick Cheney would approve of that...a friend of the mafia and US corporate interests.

ADG

[u-Bob]

yes, who doesn't?

[Cyandin]

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

I read Che's "Guerilla Warfare" as a teenager, as well as some of his diaries.

Although I disagreed with some of his practices, his passion for the plight of the common person confronted with corrupt entrenched politicians, left an indelible imprint upon my mind.

ADG

VERY well put. I second this.

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

well... when i start seeing 15 yr old kids wearing t-shirts of him and flying the flag, i'll happily let them know they are fucking retards.

fair enough?




and lets not confuse national interests with ones personal morality and general righteousness ;)

As if many/any of the 15 year old kids you write about actually read any of Che's writing.

I am an advocate for reading (and not necessarily following) a wide variety of writings.

Hell, I even read Mein Kampf. That doesn't make me a Nazi. What it does is give me an insight into the psyche of the person whom wrote those words and the motivations behind their subsequent actions.

I was a History major in college and read volumes of material, some of which enlightened and inspired me, some of which I detested and depressed me, and some which I still cannot fully fathom.

For me, it is less about the destination (especially a predetermined one), but more about the journey.

I applaud your "passion" and enjoy most of your posts...

ADG

[Raf1]

Guerrillas are criminals. Che has been idolized for many decades now, but I doubt most people have any idea what Guerrilla Warfare leads to.

[CaptainHowdy]

He took all the fun from Cuba... and he was actually born in the city I currently live in.

[kowalsky]

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

I see...

Viva la Batista then:



Dick Cheney would approve of that...a friend of the mafia and US corporate interests.

ADG

So true! It`s a fair comparation with Cheney!

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

As if many/any of the 15 year old kids you write about actually read any of Che's writing.

I am an advocate for reading (and not necessarily following) a wide variety of writings.

Hell, I even read Mein Kampf. That doesn't make me a Nazi. What it does is give me an insight into the psyche of the person whom wrote those words and the motivations behind their subsequent actions.

I was a History major in college and read volumes of material, some of which enlightened and inspired me, some of which I detested and depressed me, and some which I still cannot fully fathom.

For me, it is less about the destination (especially a predetermined one), but more about the journey.

I applaud your "passion" and enjoy most of your posts...

ADG

I am all about reading... but there is context. How do you seperate one mans expression of ideas from propaganda to rally people to fight and die on his behalf and to fulfill his personal quest for power. I speak Russian for example and have read all socialist literature from Engels to Lenin's books to the writings of Karl Marx and Russian and English. I've read most of what Mao Zedong wrote.

My interest was always more in understanding how people could so easily manipulate people with populist ideas and turn them into killing machines... and do so, with everyone fully knowing that "revolution" rarely achieves anything other than the empowerment of those at the top and always results in an outcome worse than what everyone was decrying to begin with.

What i was attempting to convey is that the vast majority of these writings are propaganda, written a to sell the idea of a fight against the enemies of the author... whether its a vague concept like "the man", or a perceived enemy like "jews", or the overstated "corruption" of those in power.

The net result is always the same... the murder, misery and suffering of those who were so moved by the "passion" of the author that they were ready to take up arms and fight for that brave new vision.... and the murder, misery and suffering of anyone who was seen to be in the way.

I didn't major in history in college, but i'm quite well read when it comes to the topic of history, namely war and revolution and communism and socialism.

To me, there is a massive difference between reading Mein Kampf and later stating "I was moved by Hitlers passion against the Jews"

[kowalsky]

Che was an incredible man. So great as a human been and so stupid as soldier. He is a wonderful legend because is so big and so human at the same time, there are not many characters in history who can be considered in this way. In fact even the people from right have a huge respect for him, those people usually say that they don´t like his methods. Most of the time that people is the one who yes accept the method of the US government in Vietnam, Corea, Iraq and anywhere else. Also accept the economic method of the big companies and powerful government to create backdoors in poor countries to empty them of natural resources.

Che is the history of a common man, a doctor who didn`t know a shit about wars, a man who saw the poverty of a whole continent and choose to fight against the origins of that. A simple man fighting against a regular army, a simple man who made mistakes as people like you and me, but someone who gave his life to try to let many other people to live better.

He disagree with Castro about what to do with Cuba. When Fidel join to URSS, Che left Cuba saying that he fought against an empire so he didn`t want a new one. He went to Bolivia to fight against another farmer´s murder, he went with only a few guys. Fucking brave that bastard.

He could staid in Cuba, doing what 98% of politicians do, living from the peoples resources, making money for himself. He was a hero in Cuba, he could be whatever he wanted to be. However he left everything to help more people.

More people like Guevara, and this world would be a much better place.

[cykoe6]

I know who Che Guevara was.... he was a sociopath and a mass murderer personally responsible for thousands of executions. He shared Hitler and Stalin's passion for killing and mass liquidations of certain classes of people but he lacked their organizational skills so he was unable to achieve it on as wide a scale.

A disgusting human who espoused an even more disgusting ideology. May he rot in hell.

[kowalsky]

Originally Posted by cykoe6

I know who Che Guevara was.... he was a sociopath and a mass murderer personally responsible for thousands of executions.

lol

He shared Hitler and Stalin's passion for killing and mass liquidations of certain classes of people but he lacked their organizational skills so he was unable to achieve it on as wide a scale.

LOL (?)

A disgusting human who espoused an even more disgusting ideology.

haha, please tell me what`s the name of that ideology.

Man, you are an ignorant. Go back to a bookstore and read something about what happen in this world last century!

[Profits of Doom]

Originally Posted by Sands

He makes t-shirts, right?

Yeah maaaaan, I'm wearing my tie died Che t-shirt right now, with my cut off Levi's and my Birkenstock sandals, because I'm not a puppet for our government. You're all just sheep sucking on the government teet, maaaaan!!!

[Pleasurepays]

this conversation reminds me of whoever it was a month or two ago that started a thread about what a great person and visionary Bugsy Segal was because he had apparently just watched Bugsy.... never admitting to it... but also even bothering to figure out what the truth was, that Bugsy Segal did not have the idea for the flamingo hotel and that was a project he came into 1/2 way through construction and still managed to fuck it up until his partners killed him... and he was just citing fictional accounts of events that never happened as proof.

[StaceyJo]

I'll take it on my watch list.

[rutra72]

Originally Posted by cykoe6

I know who Che Guevara was.... he was a sociopath and a mass murderer personally responsible for thousands of executions. He shared Hitler and Stalin's passion for killing and mass liquidations of certain classes of people but he lacked their organizational skills so he was unable to achieve it on as wide a scale.

A disgusting human who espoused an even more disgusting ideology. May he rot in hell.

100% agreed

[quiet]

this shirt cracks me up: http://store.theonion.com/our-dumb-w...che-p-172.html

[WWC]

wow didnt expect the long replies :-)

[shimmy2]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

It's very simple. You're poor. You're angry. For whatever reason. You have trained your bitterness on those in power. You have convinced yourself of your righteousness and that of your beliefs and You are ready to "fight".

dude an oppressed class of people are always going to look for a way out of their circumstances or a come up if they have any sense at all. the problem lies in most are so beaten to death because of their circumstances under the current regime all they can do is turn to religion, 'love', or some other distraction to avoid dealing with the real life issues. i'm not one to jump all on any self proclaimed leaders nuts just cause he/she can speak well but you have to realize that people like che are the voice of many who cannot speak and/or think for themselves but deep down know their state of living is fucked up because of something that appears to be out of their control. this is why you have so many masses rallying behind the gandis, Mlks, ches, obamas, etc.

[VicD]

Originally Posted by Sands

He makes t-shirts, right?

[Horny Joe]

Originally Posted by Sands

He makes t-shirts, right?

[David!]

che = piece of shit sociopathic murderer
people who wear che t-shirts = retards who don't have a clue

/end of broadcast