there are always two sides to a story... usually 3 or 4 :1orglaugh

in this case it's bad timing on my part. a response could be slow in coming as it is the american turkey day long weekend.

for the whole thing was principle. don't get me wrong, i would have loved to have the money back but it wasn't the prime motivator.

from my perspective as a customer the only one in the equation with any power was Mr. Tiarra. He has the power to hire and fire. What I thought would have been the right/moral thing to do would have been to go to the designer and say "I hear you stiffed a client. I don't employ dishonest people. Resolve the situation or you'll never work on another project of mine again.

A simple, easy, effective solution.

What the fuck is it with people this week. I don't know Archer by that name anyway so I don't even know what this is about. The only logo job I recall referring out was a year or more ago and I referred it to Tony who works for Max Cash. He used to work for me but I was too busy to take the job and this guy asked for help so I told him to try Tony. If this is the same job, then Tony wasn't even working for me anymore and the only thing I'm guilty of is making a bad referral. If it's anything else then I just have no clue what this guy is talking about.

So if that is the job then are you guys saying Max Cash is unreputable for having Uncle Tony as an employee?

Get real guys. The amount harmful BS that floats around these boards is absurd. I've never taken part in any of it because there is always half of the information presented and people get hurt. It's the same as the guy who gets accused of child abuse by a hateful wife or or some such and ends up with a stigma the rest of his life even if nothing of the sort happened.

And as to Brujah and the contest: I lived up to every contest I ever ran on a first email received basis. Obviously there is no way for either of us to be able to prove what email was received first but I can say that what the hell poinbt would there be in me giving one away to a friend when the hold reason for holding the contest was to build good will with NEW clients and gain business that way. Use your brains people.

yes. Mr. Tiarra that was the job.

However, it's news to me that tony was working for maxcash at the time. You never mentioned that in any of our correspondence.

I certainly couldn't tell since he always used your company's email address to write me.

There was no question that the referral went wrong(we both agreed on that) but my basic point - and the one you never acknowledged - still stands and i quote:

"from my perspective as a customer the only one in the equation with any power was Mr. Tiarra. He has the power to hire and fire. What I thought would have been the right/moral thing to do would have been to go to the designer and say "I hear you stiffed a client. I don't employ dishonest people. Resolve the situation or you'll never work on another project of mine again. "

simple, easy, and effective.

Archer, Tony never did work for me again. He was never an employee, just a contractor. And I referred you to him much like you would refer a friend to a plumber or electrician who did work for you. Would you be responsible for that workers action? Certainly you'd feel bad for making a referal that didn't work out but the worker isn't your employee.

Back then everyone I knew had TiarraCorp email addresses because I had gotten so many people started in the business. Aly, Jeff, Gerry, Mark2, Tony, Ian, Dawn, the list goes on... A couple of them kept the addresses because they had domains and such registered to them. Many of them went on to work for Max Cash or other companies and kept the addresses for a long time. Didn't make them my employees, just someone who asked me for an email address when they got started.

So again, I'll reiterate:

- Tony was not an employee.
- I referred you to Tony and my involvement ended there.
- I told you at the time that trying to attack my reputation for a job referred would be defamatory.

This is the reason why. Now I have to get on here and completely explain something that you only presented half of or misrepresented. Not only that but I have clients questioning whether or not they will be dealt with honestly now. LUMYR and I have done over 2500 sites since I began. That's a lot of clients. There will always be problems along the way... any one of us here has had them.

But, I think I can honestly say I've helped more people out and dealt with people in the most honest and upright fashion. I've never ran away from people who had problems with us and I have a long list of positive refrences from bending over backwards and going far out of my way to do extra for people and treat them well. I can count the number of relationships that were difficult on one hand and I think that's pretty damn good for the number of years and the number of clients we've had.

i don't think i've misrepresented anything. I was just stating the facts as I understood them.

i'm glad to hear that he's never worked for you again.

like i said in my original post, i was a newbie and green.

However I think you must agree that having people who you say have no affiliation with you whatsover to use your company's email address sends the wrong message to clients - in particular me at the time. When anyone writes me from a large company using that company's email address, I assume they have a connection with the company. Why would you even allow for the potential of such 'guilt by association'. I don't understand that.

I mean even as green as I was then I had my own email address.

So where's Tony now? and what's he doing?

apparently he posts here

Tony works for Max Cash, as I stated above. I think we can all agree that Max Cash is an incredibly reputable company and they don't hire crooks. We all have jobs that go bad on occasion and I can't speak for Tony but I can say that I have always done my level best to make things right if and when there was a problem with my own client. Unfortunately, a post like yours even if you can say that you didn't understand it all is still very damaging. Every time we do a job well and the customer is happy, they don't get on every board to applaud our work. One misrepresented (even unintentionally) problem comes up and it makes someone look dishonest.

I offer the guarantee on LUMYR because I know I can stand by my work. What other designer in this business will continually tweak the site and maintain a relationship with you after the site is done? I treat each job with the same care I would treat my own work and I often do plenty of extra that doesn't even get billed for. I'm happy to supply anyone with references to that effect as well.

I don't think I ever saw a post from an Uncle Tony here. Does he go by another name?

It was proven, you either didn't see it.. or didn't care. It's probably all still in the hahahahahahaha archive and you missed the board that day I guess.

Again I'll state that there would be no point in doing that. At least now I know to make a public board for people to post guesses if I ever run a contest again. That way no one can accuse me of this BS.

In any case, I'll do what I always do and that's my level best to make someone happy... what did I run that contest? I'll be happy to design whatever it was for you now.

Mr. Tiarra

I do not that you have adequately answered my point regarding non employees using your company's email address.

I think that you must admiy that the potential for a client to misunderstand the relationship is large. In my situation who was I to tell the difference when both of you were responding from the same email address?

Now as to your point regarding Tony working for MaxCash. You did not reveal at the time of our correspondence that he worked for maximum cash.

I consider you being guilty of the "sin of omission"

Had you told me that at the time and 'when the iron was hot' that he worked at Maxcash I would have emailed them with the same question I asked you:

"Is it your corporate policy to hire designers who stiff their clients?"

now, a couple of years after the fact, i'm gonna look pretty fucking stupid writing that.

but i will write. Anyone on the board know who's a good person at maxcash to talk to?

thinking about this has gotten me as mad now as i was then
:mad:

Please correct that we didn't write form the same email address just both from @tiarracorp.com. And I would say that considering your take on the situation that it was a bad idea to let people I was close to keep email addresses.

As for Tony's employment at Max Cash, I think it happened right about when you came to me. He would more accurately recall. I think you contacted me, I referred you and that same week he took the full time position.

All that crap is kinda moot on my side though because the fact is that you raised the issue with me and you are upset with my referall. All I can offer is to do the work for you myself instead or something similar since I'm sure it's long since done.

so I hear

This whole thing is stupid. Lumyr has been a top designer for years, and I've never heard a bad word about them. He makes a bad refferal two years ago, and now he gets slammed on GFY, on Thanksgiving no less.


ah hem: http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...rule+ch anges

just give him the cash and he'll be fine yo.

Mark should pay him?

LOL, if you reffer me to a host, and they end up sucking and the downtime that costs me $10k, I'm comming to you for the cash. :thumbsup

Thank you... I was starting to think sanity was out of style. Look, I'm willing to do some work for it just because two people have told me that Archer is a stand-up guy now I feel bad that a referall I made didn't work out. At the time he contacted me initialy he was all angry trying to blame me as if it was my own personal work and I reacted thusly. But from speaking here it's obvious the guy thought I was trying to hide behind something and when two people I respect tell me he is okay, then I believe that. So anyway... Archer, email me [email protected] and let me do what I can to at least make it not a total waste for you.

thank you mark, i appreciate the post.

A very public thank you for your kind offer.

Sometime things go wrong and obviously in this case, things did.

A public apology on my part: I never meant to appear to slam or defame you. If it came across that way, I apologize. I was just trying to make my point.

My adventure with Uncle Tony was not only my first public venture in the field but the first time I'd done business on the net. Trust a virgin's first time experience to be a bad one.

Mind you, I'd still like to rip his balls off and feed them to him for breakfast but i'll guess i'll have to wait on that.

If anyone knows this guy; if he posts here under an alias; or who would be a good person at maxcash to write to let them know what they have working for them, you can always get a hold of me at webmaster at gayfucksites dot com (soon to be relaunched, yeah!)

Well that's okay. My biggest problem is that for whatever reason this week two things decided to come up that were both not anything malevolent on my part but when this kind of stuff happens, it's like the analogy I used before of someone accused of abuse... once the allegation is made the damage is done.

That's why I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt and contact them first (which in your case, I will say you did way back when but we didn't understand one another at all). I guess this is why suits for slander and defamation became realities. I doubt very many people badmouth one another with truly ill intent, but harm can still be done. =[