That is not the perfect circle, as there are oddities with how John would have been fathered by Reese in the original timeline.

John could not have existed in the future prior to him sending Reese (his father) back to save Sarah -- as Reese's time travel was the first instance of time travel, and prior to this event Reese only existed in this timeline as a child, adolescent, young man, and then friend of John.

I tried to explain that but his come back was that I only believe in 10-dimensions, which I never stated anywhere, when I specifically referred to multiple if not infinite time lines.

You can not get the egg before the chicken.

The only way his comments work is if the entire timeline is a closed loop cycle with a separate force or control that has already predetermined all events no matter what point on the timeline you exist. That would mean there is no such thing as free will and makes all the actions in the movie pointless.

:2 cents:

Just wanted to say Eh? on that line.

Now continue on with your movie/time travel debate. I am cool with both enjoying a movie and also talking about its issues after the fact. Not like movies have never inspired real technology or people to study/become a scientist latter on.

Ummmm... You have never heard of the expression? And I am not referring to anything in evolution or the stupid real world debate on it. What I mean is you can't get a chicken until one lays an egg. In this case John is the egg and won't exist unless Kyle creates him.

Yes I have.
You explained yourself, carry on.

Everyone was just getting so technical and all.

Biggest problem with multiple timelines / universes idea is this; In the future, SkyNet would have known that sending the machine back in time to kill Sarah Conner would not effect change on it's current predicament. SkyNet would have understood that killing Sarah Conner in the past would not kill John Conner in the present according to the multiple timeline theory -- and a machine as powerful as SkyNet (which could invent a time machine) would certainly understand that the fact that if it was defeated by humans in the present, it would means that it could not change that fact by attempting to change the past.

It was a hail mary pass and I suppose it was operating off of a theory, just so happens the theory would of been wrong.

both of you are missing the point in 4 dimensional space time there is no alternative timeline
there is only one time line.

Under that situation traveling forward in time (how we do) results in cause always preceeding effect.
Reverse the direction of time (time traveling into the past) effect always preceeds cause.

There is no two ways about it.

The only way you can get an alternative reality is by creating a perpendicular dimension vtime= 5th dimension)


watch this video to understand 10d existance.

the point is Predestination paradox is the opposite solution (vs alternative timelines) to the grandfather paradox.

You can't have both, and since the movie clearly had a predestination paradox you can't have alternative timelines.

Temporal mechanics 101, which unfortunately the writer of the second movie did not understand, hense the biggest fuckup in franchise history.

And this has been practically proven by whom...?

50 terminators

since we don't know weather we live in a 4d existance or a 10d existance none has "practically proven" it

However it has been logically proven, by enstein under his duality of time.

There are only two possible outcomes either you can change the present by altering the past, or you can't change the present by altering the past.

The ultimate paradox that describes this situation is grandfather paradox.

the solution if you can alter the past is an alternative timeline where both conditions exist at the same time (10 d spacetime).

If you can't change the present by altering the past the solution is the predestination paradox, in which your actions in the past created the present you were hoping to change (4d spacetime).

since the movie had a predestination paradox it must logically be a 4d space time contruct, which precludes alternate realities since there would be no 5th dimension to for that reality to exist.

as to the arguement of free will, it exists but only forward moving timestream where cause preceeds effect. under those conditions changes you make change the world. IT only when you switch the relationship that free will disappears.

If you look at things from SkyNet's perspective -- you would see that according to all calculations traveling through time to kill Sarah Connor was a fruitless endeavor, as John's existence in Skynet's present (in 2029) was proof that Skynet was unable to affect the present by altering the past.

If indeed Skynet could have effected change, then the present it was operating in would not have contained John Connor. 45 years earlier the machine it sent back to kill his mother was unsuccessful, as John's presence in 2029 attest to. Upon inventing the the time machine -- and being defeated, Skynet would have calculated that whatever actions it may undertake in the present / past will not result in it being successful.

Now we can look at Reese and John. In John's present prior to Reese being sent back to 1984, we can say that Reese has already traveled back in time, as without that event having already occurred John could not exist. But, John could have said to Reese "there is no point in traveling back in time to stop the machine -- as I am alive in the present, and therefore the machine will fail in it's attempts to kill my mother." If this were the case, and logically this is correct (John does indeed exist in 2029) and Reese did not travel back in time how would John's existence be explained?

My mind is officially blown.

I don't get why they needed Reece to be the father. The story is good enough without that. It's like they needed a compelling reason for Sarah being a single mom.

The moment skynet sent the terminator back in time, they should have ceased
to exist exactly as they were. The whole universe would go back in time a few
decades at that moment, and John in the future would not have had any opportunity
to send Reise back in time.

well yes and no, remember you don't know if you live in a 4d or a 10d world.
if you knew you were in a 4d world then yes the you are correct but skynet would not know yet.

but that the point john conner does know that the universe is a 4d world (his mother wrote him a letter explaining to him at the end of the movie), he knows that if he does not send his father into the past the consequence would be a complete destruction of everything (think universe recreating itself at that second over and over again--> an infinite number of big bangs happening at that second).
so he has to send his father back in time.
if he didn't send kyle into the past everything would cease to exist, so the situation you are talking about would never happen, that the consequence of not following thru with a PP.

Gideongallery:
You impress me, sir. Have you ever seen "Primer"? (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0390384/) one of the smartest sci-fi time travel movies ever made.


Everyone else: There's a very simple way to imagine time travel and a way to allow movies to tell their stories: Multiple Universes.

Arny did not change history when he first materialized back in 1984 in the first Terminator movie. By beating up and stealing the clothes from the punks and killing MULTIPLE Sarah Connors, he created an alternate universe. In HIS universe, none of these things happened. Skynet was born and destroyed the world. In the new universe, Skynet was still born, but in a different way and maybe by different people.

In Back to the Future, Marty goes back in time. The moment he hits 1 of the 2 pine trees, he creates an alternative universe where "Twin Pines Mall" was named "Loan Pine Mall". Etc.

The multiple Universe idea is a plausible idea accepted by most of today's Einsteins as Gideon already mentioned, AND, it makes the whole causality paradox thing moot.

back to the future is based on a 10d world, it is possible to change the present by changing the past

terminator 1 is based on 4d world, it is not possible to change the present by changing the past.

forcing a 10d world onto a story that was designed to based on a 4d world cause the crappy story of t2 (temporal paradox) and needs the even crappier fix (t3).

You guys spend way to much time overthinking an action movie series. Either you buy the concept of time travel in a movie or you don't. If not then you wouldn't waste your time watching the movie.

it's like Back to the Future all you nerds debate the whole 4D vs 10D concept yet no matter what you completely miss the whole point that no matter what you can't make a time machine out of a Delorean. Somehow you bought into THAT idea.

Because it was the 80's and it kicked ass... that's why!

The best part of people arguing over time travel is its all theories, so no one can ever be right or wrong.

Thanks for all the replies but.. pretty much now i'm even more confused

4D , 10D , paradox ....

I can't think about this anymore .. lol

bump for more terminator talk lol

They kind of dealt with that in T3 by saying that it happened anyway. The hand simply sped up the process. But the technology would have been developed anyway, just on a different timescale. But yeah... the Terminator franchise is like Swiss cheese.

these are very old logical questions and paradox's that have existed forever

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox

there are many many versions and many similar dilemmas

that being said.. let it go. it's entertainment and you are talking about time travel as if its supposed to make sense. the concept most likely won't make sense in our lifetimes. its philosophy... not science. it becomes science when theories can be tested and proven.