Government Bailouts - Let me get this straight...

No worries, Tony404 will explain to you very soon how wrong you are about unions and all the good they do.

Heh, no doubt.

Tony's a good guy - but we've always been opposite ends of the spectrum in regards to unions.

I know, I just find it fun to bring it up.
He is a good guy though, even if very wrong.

It's what makes America great. Entitlement and no accountability

You mean to tell me that unionization was NOT the cause of the large increase in the size of the American middleclass?

wrong the govment isn't giving money. YOU'RE giving money

and unions are not the powerful anymore, don't listen to that bullshit

I think the majority of the bailout money is going to banks and things like that which are not unionized. There are some things like the auto industry which are unionized getting some aid, but those are loans, not the flat out gifts that the bankers are getting. A lot of it is also going to garbage that has nothing to do with creating jobs and it is going directly into infrastructure work much of which will not be unionized work.

I don't blame workers for trying to get everything they can from an employer. If I go to a company and they want to hire me and I demand a certain wage and benefits package and get it, great. The company should know what they can and cannot afford to pay me. If they give it to me what fault of it is mine?

As for the unions causing the global downturn of the auto industry. There is a lot more to it than that. All of the car companies are hurting, even those that don't use unions. The main thing that car companies did wrong (IMO) is they bet the farm on the SUV. The somehow convinced everyone that they needed to own a 30K+ SUV that most could barely afford to begin with then when gas shot up to nearly $5 a gallon they couldn't afford to drive it. So now people are not buying those big cars, but the car companies are in a position where they rely on selling them to make their profits.

I'm not saying unions are without blame. But there is a myth that many believe that most auto workers are making 80K+ a year and have world class benefits. My brother is a teamster (not auto, construction) and he has shitty medical and dental coverage. After 12 years with the company he still gets just 2 weeks vacation a year and only gets 16 hours a sick time a year. The number that most people use for the union wage also includes the pension/benefits of retired and past employees. So they add in all the money the car company is paying out to current employees in wages and benefits and they add in all the pension and benefits for past and retired employees and they take that big number and divide it by the number of employees they have working today. That number represents how much it costs them for each employee, not necessarily how much each employee is getting.

Here is an example:
Say you had 100 employees and each earned 20K a year in wages and benefits for each cost another 10K a year. You can then say each employee costs you 30K a year. Now if you have been in business for a while and have retired employees drawing pension and benefits from you then you have to factor that in. So say you have 200 retired employees and each of them cost you 15K year in pension and benefits. So you can say your active payroll costs you 3million a year and your retired payroll costs you another 3 million a year. So your total employee costs is 6 million. If you divide that by the number of current employees you have you can then say that it costs you 60K per year per worker even though the current worker is only getting 30K of that. So when you see autoworkers making 80-100K a year most of that is not accurate. Sure there are some that make that, but most don't

Teacher unions are pretty damn powerful still

Add to that public transit unions, civil servant unions (CUPE in Canada), police unions...etc.

Hey now.....you stop that making sense stuff!

As I have said in other threads...

I have been a union steward, and management for the same company. I see both sides of the arguments. There is a legitimate need for unions in corporate America.

For every stereotype people like to come up with for scapegoating unions. I can easily dash them on the management side of the equation. One example off the top of my head... Back when I was in telco. They asked the union to make concessions on their healthcare so the company could survive, and keep jobs, or whatever the pitch was at the time. The union conceded.

Within MONTHS Whitaker, the CEO at the time, received some obscene annual bonus and THEN they opened up a bunch of non-union, sub contracted call centers, and eliminated jobs anyways. Nothing like a kick in the nuts, and a bitch slap. Middle management gets it just as bad from the higher ups. Always asked to make concessions, and then some big wig gets another nice PHAT bonus for all his cost cutting. In the meantime, they keep buying up all their competition with all the money that take from the workers.

Corporate America at it's finest.

do you think the teachers, poilce, service will get this bailout.

the word on the street is GM is buying out all hourly workers with 20'g's and a car voucher for 25g's.

this money is being looted, and we're fucked.

True.

It was just on the news
GM - no buyouts

More info

and please don't blame this on the uinons. other countries have unions and they don't have 'our' problems.

when the boomin days of porn you wasn;t talking bad about the unions, those union folks was the ones buying your porn memeberships. what you thought they were white collar folks.

I agree.

America just got robbed. If bush had done this there would have been riots in the streets. But since Obama we are suppose to play nice.

Oops. Sorry.

I'll fix that. Auto workers make $80 an hour and are the primary reason for the collapse the the economy.

Yeah lets stop blaming the American people. That is what the government wants. Us blaming each other when all the blame lies in Washington.

that's the problem. blame the unions, blame this, blame that, blah blah, we're getting fucked and we're taking it. sad

I don't see how a union is different than any other group or company. They do what is in the best interest of themselves. Why should employees not demand as much money and benefits as they can? The oddest thing about those who hate unions is that they are the ones that are supposedly for "free markets".

It's one of the oldest government tricks in the book. Goes back thousands of years. Make your people hate something or someone. Blacks, Muslims, Rich, Poor, whoever. As long as they are hating each other, they won't pay attention to the shit that is going on in Washington.

An employee can demand as much as they want. They should not be able to dictate all the terms to the company though and if not followed shut the company down via a strike where they (often) have beaten those who still wanted to work for the terms the company was offering.
What about teachers unions which have made it virtually impossible to even fire a teacher, even if they are not doing their job?

I really do not get the whole "right" to work and keep your job. I also have issues with seniority when it comes to layoffs, firing, and even promotions. By the way I did grow up with family members in unions and saw both sides or should I say all three sides since for awhile my father got kicked around due to policies of the union.

They should be able to dictate whatever the fuck they want. If the company doesn't like it, they can tell them to screw themselves. It's a free market and an employee should be able to ask for what he wants and a company should be able to accept or reject that proposal. It's a two way street between employees and employers, they both need each other.

And yes unions can get away with a ton of shit, but the anger should not be with them. If you could negotiate a deal that said you couldn't be fired, you'd sure as hell do it. Blame the city or school district for signing the deal.

Well, finally we agree on something.

Even if we don't agree on the the details.

Aren't you Canadian? How is it your tax dollars?

QFT