I would really like to see what have you paid $7k for at the end...

lol this sounds familiar. i got a contract job through robert half (some of you freelancers out there surely know of them) doing flash/actionsctipt ads for a startup. the company had already used RH to hire their main developer who had been dicking them around on their new site and delaying their launch with the same excuses as in your original post. eventually the owner got fed up, fired the guy, and they asked me to look at his code. it hurt to have to tell them "you have nothing. we're be starting from scratch"

while i spent the next month busting 18 hour shifts, they were still using RH to try and hire people to help me. they got hosed 7/10 times when RH sent someone they claimed knew what they were doing but didn't.

make sure the reputable firm you go to isn't a staffing firm. they tend to use the same flaky programmers you're trying to avoid.

Make sure to get in touch with k0nr4d. He's usually booked up for weeks ahead, but I have yet to hear anything bad about his services.

this is very typical

good programming is like an artform, and you should never rush an artist.... the great ones might procrastinate and come up with excuses for weeks and then all of the sudden burn through the most of the project in one crazed 48 hours of next to no sleep

setting your own deadlines on other people's work and promises is almost always a guarantee of stress

dont need great, ill settle for good but reliable ;)


as for the question of what we got for the first programmer, we got nothing usable and wrote it off

This might not be your case, but generally, you get what you pay for and the people complaining just aren't willing to pay the going rate for quality work.

I know when I used to freelance, people would often balk at hourly rates of $100 - $300 depending on the task. These are often the same people who end up paying unreliable and unqualified programmers $20-$50 an hour, getting a horrible job done (or not done) and losing out on a lot more than a few hundred bucks (especially when time is money).

Can you find more affordable programmers who are reliable and who do solid work? Yes, but chances are, they have more than enough workload already.

:2 cents:

THen hit up John @ AdultBoost
Email: [email protected] ICQ# 149824370
http://adultboost.com/

are you kidding me? the whole world works on deadlines, giving open deadlines = you will have a heart attack

and no a programmer needs to give updates and work, this is a fast moving world, why hope he will do the project in 48 hours once hes done pushing shit off, fuck him!

Guys here is how to work with people if you want to get anywhere on this planet

Strike one and your out, everyone who misses one deadline will give you problems in the future just move the fuck on

this is what I told the thread started 4 months ago

"once a programmer goes to shit nothing will help, move on and thank me later, ive tried giving programmers bonuses etc nothing helped they suffer seriously from procrastination and there is nothing to it, treat them like a bottle of milk know they all have a short shelf life get whatever you can get out of them and the moment you smell anything sour trash them, they will never become better"

guys dont listen to this art crap bullshit, give deadlines and the guy misses by one minute move the fuck on

bullshit plenty of expensive guys are junk, I have no limit what ill pay a solid good quick programmer and have met many good ones, but we all know even the best ones turn into junk or we would all still have our very first designer and programmer.

guys remember EVERYONE is replaceable and the very minute you hear an excuse dont get mad simply move on that very second, you will get way more shit done that way,

I have to disagree; the good ones move on to head up their own companies or become partners in companies and stop freelancing :)

I agree here. 99.5% of the time the excuses given are simply lies and you should cut your losses right then and there.

so the guy went through two programmers and we still haven't heard the other side ... what is this? another "fuck a programmer thread".


eat a dick

You are in situation that you must wait, if you pull out codes and give to someone else you will lost time again and maybe you will have the same problem with a new one.Im sure that he will finish this work.Maybe the only thing that might help you will be if you constantly calling him and make some kind of preasure

Look, finding decent programmers is tough.

You've got two classic types of programmer:
#1: The genius. This guy can code anything imaginable. Except a girlfriend (but he's tried..)

Pros: Code is compact, efficient, complex...

Cons: ..and sparsely commented, except for when he's criticising someone else's library. Can't interact with humans. You will need to cradle him in your arms through his boughts of depression, paranoia, and eye-bleeder WoW sessions.

Summary: If you can get him to finish coding before he finishes himself, you'll have great code.

#2 - The talker. This guy's can-do attitude, friendly demeanour and deep understanding of your project and problems are only matched by his very-average coding ability.

Pros: Has the gift of the gab. He understands the real world. Dead lines exist. Personal hygiene exists. You'll be assured at every step of the way, everything is right on track...

Cons: ..until it falls apart, because his code has security flaws, doesn't scale, and is full of procedural spaghetti.

Summary: You'll probably find yourself making excuses for the guy, cos he's just so damn nice..

Am I right or what?

There is a third group, people who either can do both, or who work with partners who do what they can't. These guys are hard to come by, and are expensive. It's just the way it goes.

If there's one thing to take away from this thread though: The excuse of 'code is like art, I'll write it how and when I want it' - is nothing more than immaturity with a dash of arrogance.

Sure, some days the code flows better than others - but don't let yourself be convinced that this prima donna attitude is acceptable.

which one are you ? I'll file this one next to "fuck designers" ... :1orglaugh

Well thats happening when everybody looking for cheaper service possible.. Don't get me wrong .. I am sorry if I am not right .. but that business become cheap .. and cheaper also earnings smaller and smaller ....

post==true;

I like to think I'm in the third group. I've always delivered what has been specified, documented and implemented.

But then again - I don't advertise my services :winkwink:

Shit happens... I've got one client where I ended up not being able to get to their project as soon as I said I could and then due to not answering my questions thoroughly as to their requirements things dragged on and on.. i.e. I'd ask 5 questions and 2 would get answered... So both sides to blame as far as I'm concerned..

Got another one where the same beginning happened but then I started to bang stuff out.. asked for a bunch of clarification on some things and 2+ weeks later I'm still waiting for answers so am in limbo. Paid me upfront so not too worried but I really hate owing people stuff...

Another one where the client and I worked on getting everything ironed out ahead of time and I banged his stuff out right away...

People are people and everyone is a fuck up sometimes. At least I can say that I never disappear when there's still work to be done and I always deliver more than asked or paid for.

I should mention that programming is something I do more on the side than as a full time gig but since I've been doing coding for 25+ years my stuff is solid.

Hey mate.. how have things been going? It's been ages :)

Programming is not art, period. Neither is math. For both of them it's getting a hang of the problem and figuring out the solution. Nothing artistic is involved, just a combination of experience and hours put in. Some people come up with better solutions but they are not artists, they are just better at logic and encountered similar problems in the past.

jcsike, depending on the scope of the project I can likely help you out. I just posted this thread a few days ago and still looking for projects to take on:
https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/910102-programmer-available.html

very well put!

on a side note deal with programmers as you would with a plumber or electrician or any other contractor, you have a problem or you need to build something you hire them for a solution there is no art no nothing, these days are not days to be dicked around by nobody, when someone doesnt keep a deadline they disrespect you so fire them and remember if the shoe was on the other foot they would do the same.

but sometimes people deal with programmers like girls deal with men, you start making excuses in your head and justifying everything because you think they are the only ones who can do it.

Here is another type of programmer, the guy who only works well when he needs money, the moment he has some money he cant code a single line if his life depended on it.

Mostly only "lemons" are on the market, all the "peaches" are doing work for someone else already... :2 cents:

thats great, the first guy was #2 and the second guy is #1.

the thing is we paid the first guy, pretty much up front, and the second guy, because hes working for a % for the licensing of his system, we didnt pay anything out and the risk for building it is all on him until we start using it

but ill say i was about as pissed last time as i am now and the last thread (and ECBs) posts really swayed me

i would use drocd or scriptworkz both know their shit

once a coder writes something, somebody else can just update/manage it huh. doesnt have to be the same person i guess

To be honest... I have flaked a few of times myself. I am not making excuses for anyone... but sometimes shit happens.... I always try to make it right... and I don't think anyone could say that I fucked them over.

SeveralMark: I took a job to code a tour cms for him and right after I took the job my wife was hospitalized for a week and after she came home she was on bedrest for awhile. I ended up having to watch our 2 year old and it is impossible to code and watch a child... on top of that I was employed (this was a side job). I hired another programmer to code the cms... and he did... but it wasn't exactly what SeveralMark needed. SeveralMark had paid 1/2 up front and I delivered the cms that the coder gave me and ate the other 1/2... the code was perfect OO and right along the Zend Framework coding standard with everything commented... so it shouldn't have been a total loss. I still regret that it wasn't finished properly... but at least he got the majority of what he wanted for 1/2 price.

I can't remember this other guys nick but he was a big AFF affiliate and a screenwriter. He hired me to write a custom tgp script for him that was nothing like anything on the market. It had a template system where there was no html coding or anything like that necessary and he could drag and drop content in to zones that would output on the front end. This was a very complex script. We agreed that he would pay me X amount of dollars per week (like a consulting firm would charge). He stopped paying... I had to hassle him every week to pay me from the beginning... so I delivered what I had written (which was a working tgp script without the drag and drop template system completed) and walked away. I am sure that he felt like I ripped him off in some kind of way... but we had an agreement and he didn't follow through with his end.

Blackrose hired me to write a couple of scripts... and I was WAY over the deadline. But I had explained to him that I was very busy right from the beginning... in the end I don't think he felt ripped off. I just felt bad that it took me so long to complete.

The moral to the story is... I learned that I can't take side jobs... I just don't have time.

always better to have the new guy start from scratch, I hate when one programmer bashes another, its like doctors they always bash what the others say regardless of what

If the original coder wrote clean code, it shouldn't be a problem for future coders to work on.

I think many though, don't document and write real messy code (aside from just being lazy or not knowing any better), in an effort towards their own job security since it'd be a huge hassle for anyone else to work on it :1orglaugh

Good luck... can't believe you are still dealing with this... Elance would have had this done in 5 days... tops...

So true, plumbers, architects, lawyers etc will always say the last guy sucked and you need to start over. ALWAYS! And why wouldn't they? It is hard to see where the last guy was going and it is not how you would do it so it feels weird etc. So they think why not trash the guy and "prove" they are better. Then get the money for the full job the way they would do it.

your telling me

after this guy, were willing to pay whatever it takes to get it done and out the door, #1 is reputation/reliable history, #2 is speed, and cost is going to be further down

no more of this single programmer BS, need a coordinated team with deadlines

This is incredibly common for programmers, but in this industry, more so. Many get fed up with the bizarre requests with ill-defined requirements, incredible undercutting/underbidding, and so forth.

It's a shame that most programmers in the industry won't just turn down projects they don't want directly - when I am unavailable, or disinterested, I make a point to put people in touch with other coders I've worked with and trust.