Iraqi Shoe Monument... what a load of crap....

lol. you got a weird worldview.. the bribe money is "control money"

thank god china did not think we needed to be liberated from Bush

While they may be rid of Saddam, they aren't better off yet. Their country has been war torn. Many have been without power for years. Hospitals are shut down. Its anarchy. They had some order beforehand. Hopefully the US cleans up the mess they created.

entirely wrong

who cares?

"When the next generation sees the shoe monument, they will ask their parents about it," al-Naseri said.

"Then their parents will start talking about the hero Muntadhir al-Zaidi, who threw his shoe at George W. Bush during his unannounced farewell visit."

Big fucking deal. I dont give a fuck about a shoe monument, but think for one minute about the people who built it and why......... After that, are you surprised they built it?

The monument is basicly a celebration to them because 1 man stood up and did what MILLIONS of people wanted to. I dont blame them, we all celebrate small victorys in our own way.

Not that I care about the shoe, and not that I dont think their a little ass backwards over there, but its their thing.

As an american, I wish we could put our own little shoe monument in Washington to commemerate the end of the worst presidency in the history of the U.S. and the end of a huge harm to the future of America. GW was a dirty mother fucker. As time goes on and more comes out, it will be a little more obvious to those who wern't paying attention..

Is CNN your only source for news? Calm the f down.

we'd definitely have a fight on our hands

Just give it 4 more years

Why the fuck would you praise a shoe-thrower? Is that something so great? We have monuments to Lincoln, etc.. They have monuments to fucking shoe-throwers.

You can't be serious.

Man, when you "buy" into some shit you pay full price with no returns.

i never thought of that

i found the matching foot btw...

Control of them or control of us???? Either way, it pretty much sucks.

It's pretty tough to skew a story about a shoe monument praising something as stupid as throwing a shoe at a world leader.

I haven't "bought" into anything. I am making my opinion known.

I don't think we need to finance half the damn world and basically have them show us the finger for it.

Define 'better'.

Few jobs.
Their power grid is worse than Saddam days.
They have water and sewage issues.
There is random gun fire, looting, rape, and madness daily in their streets.
Little to no real infrastructure rebuilt in regards to hospitals, schools, power plants, etc.
They have to worry about living in the wrong areas, or towns now based on religion.

With all those winning benefits coming after the war. Who WOULDN'T be happy with years in those conditions?!!? I can only imagine the insane amount of gratitude I would have while my family starved, I had poor education and health care, little power or fresh water, and bullets all hours of the day and night..

Oh that's right. They have 'democracy' now..

Someday, in Iraq, there will be monuments to GWB.

these are all fucking muslims. you can't expect any rational thinking out of them.

Makes you long for those days when people were gassed under Hussein's rule, or they were picked up tortured and beaten and never heard from again doesn't it? Yeah, getting rid of the people that did that was a terrible thing wasn't it?

Don't you think some of the fault for the "years in those conditions" lies with the Iraqi leaders and people for not moving forward on their democracy? Dragging their own feet as it were?

Let me ask. If you had lived under a dictator and a force came in (whether you wanted to recognize them as liberators or not) and gave you the "keys to the kingdom" as it were and said... here ya go... set it up... make your own way.

Would you as part of a population allow the shit to continue? Would you back the insurgents and the wahhabi and the shiites and the sunnis calling for just as much oppression as there was before?

Do you honestly believe that the problems in Iraq truly are 100% the fault of the GWB administration or can you lay a large part of the blame on Iraq itself for not pulling it's head from it's collective ass and stepping up to the plate?

Seems to me one of the first things the Iraqis should have done was control the one viable resource they had... THE OIL.... and sell the shit out of it and get some revenue coming in.....

Then they could have built the hospitals, the schools, the infrastructure that everyone blames the US for not supplying. They could have employed their own police force and said to the US... Thanks for the starter.. Now get the fuck outta here. We're good. What..... must we do everything to be considered as acceptable? Getting rid of asshat #1 and his boys wasn't enough? Yeah, the whole thing was done looking for the elusive WMD's but dropping Hussein in the process wasn't such a bad trade-off was it?

You need to turn down the volume on O'Reilly friend.

There were plenty of mistakes made by the Bush administration. If you are claiming there were not, and it is all the Iraqi and Kurds fault. You need to turn the channel off Fox News a bit more.

Start here
Bush's War
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

Bad Voodoo's War
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/badvoodoo/

Endgame
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/endgame/view/

and plenty of others here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/view/) going into a lot of detail on the BULL SHIT of this war on the boogie man. A lot of it coming from the front line soldiers and people over there, and ex-Pentagon and defense people. I think I will trust them a bit more than GWB and the goose stepping storm troopers.

thanks for the links... one of them IMO summed up what I said pretty well.....

When Iraqis went to the polls in January 2005 the administration pointed to the election as a sign of success. But with an almost complete Sunni boycott of the election, the resulting government had, as one officer described it to FRONTLINE, "tenuous legitimacy."

In many ways it was the definitive moment in the Iraq war. "The die was cast once the Sunni Arabs did not participate in the elections. Everything that has followed that has been a logical consequence," Casey strategist Maj. Thomas Mowle tells FRONTLINE.

Sectarian violence in Iraq was growing and came to a head in February 2006, when Sunni insurgents bombed the golden dome of the Askariya shrine in Samarra. "The Shi'a begin to fight back with the Sunni," author Lawrence Kaplan tells FRONTLINE. "And what was one-sided insurgency becomes a two-sided civil war."

So it's completely the fault of the Administration that the Iraqis didn't play along as hoped, right? Again... should we give them back Saddam, Uday, Husay and the Baath Party? Things were "better" then?

I'm not saying GWB did everything right... but come on... the whole fucked up situation was the fault of the administration and by default the US of A???

I have a hard time with that one.

Typically, I am not one for the blame game. I am not saying it is all GWB. I am not saying it was all the Iraqi and Kurds. Nor insurgent interference.

I am saying there is plenty of fucked up blame to go around, and based on the rosey picture of 'democracy' painted. There are bigger issues at hand then some fucking blue thumb.

You say that you are making your opinion known, but all I hear is Rush Limblaugh's
opinion being regergitated.

Iraq has democracy?? Then why do they keep voting for the US to leave and it hasn't happened?

They held their first elections under conditions where US troops were shooting at the
opposition party. Sunni's could not show up to a poll and vote without being gunned down.

And under this "democracy" Sadam was put on trial and the trial continued even
after two of his attorneys were murdered. You call that democracy?
I call that a "kangaroo court".

Dude, the Iraq war was a farce. Are you really this blind to the truth?

BTW.. I don't watch O'Reilly... he's an idiot.

I never said there were not mistakes. I have only said the mistakes were not solely theirs and IMO not so heavily weighted in that direction.

As a wise man once told me. There are two sides to every story, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. That's where I find my opinion of it all. In the middle. That's why shit like a shoe monument pisses me off so much. Even though I celebrate their newfound right to make such a statement (one they never would have been able to make under their previous leader), I find it offensive to no end. I don't care that the guy threw the shoe at GWB. He's in jail, awaiting his day in court. I do find it as a big fuck you to the USA that the Iraqi gov't didn't go to the creator of the copper shoe and say... Hey... probably not the best of ideas.

I also don't watch Fox News. I get my news from many sources on both sides of the political spectrum and also internationally.

Having an opinion that would be considered conservative doesn't automatically make me a right-winger, just as I could say your stance makes you appear left-wing.

Rush makes a comment and then everyone else is sheep? I don't have the capability of making logical thought on my own? Gee thanks. I guess all that money for college went to shit then. Time to re-think my life.

The Iraqi's have made an agreement that the US troops should be out by the end of 2011. You are deluding yourself if you think every soldier will be out of Iraq by then. Combat troops, sure, but there will always be a US contingent in Iraq. Just like Germany, Just like Korea, just like everywhere else we go. We like to have bases allllll over the world. It helps when little situations come up. Easier to keep the hardware close to the trouble spots.

Democracy doesn't mean you always get what you want. Haven't you figured that out yet? I wanted someone to lead the country that cared more for the country and less for politics as usual. I got to choose between McCain and Obama. Damn.. maybe next time.

gunned down by US troops? Doubt that. Unless they were shooting at the soldier's first, I have a hard time with that one. Link away though. There's truth to everything you can find on the internet, right?

1- the judges in the case were Iraqis, not US. They made the decision on the case. Their country, their law, their choice.

2- I don't think Saddam should have been tried. I think he should have been shot when they found him. I think his trial was intended to show the Iraqis that even he would get better than he offered when he was the leader. Was there really any question that he was going to die once he was found? I mean seriously. Everything he was tried for was basically war crimes and genocide. You usually don't walk away from those types of charges...... kangaroo court or not.

All you are saying is a fair trial I guess? The outcome would have been the same. He did some horrendously bad things. He deserved the ultimate punishment they had under their law. Plain and simple.

Farce.... depends on who you talk to. Depends on what you are fed. Depends on what you believe.

As I said in a previous post, there are two sides to every story, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. You believe the left, others believe the right. I find myself in the middle of it all.

The country was way better before, atleast the country wasnt destroyed like it is now

incorrect.
from nov 24, 2008
http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/facul...raq-war-a.html

do you people do research or just make your own conclusions?

there is 2 million refugees in Syria and Jordan that cannot go home because they will be ethnically cleansed.

I told you, jawas have no heart.

Say your wife was a cheating whore. Say you denied this. So say your best friend proves this to you by fucking your wife. Are you grateful to your friend for "liberating" you from your marriage to a cheating whore? Um no. Even if it means you are better off for the rest of your life? Nope, still not grateful.

Last I knew toots, the war has been going on how many years now? I am sure it's been rosey that whole 6 years right?



Now go dig up some more internet stories and links talking about the WHOLE timeline of the war. How merry the Iraqi's have had it this whole time, and dazzle use with more of your research. Not just picking and choosing the most recent stuff from the past year.

Thanks champ.

Fair enough sport.

You feel strongly enough on this issue to go back and forth putting your well thought opinions out there. Frankly, I do not care enough one way or the other to argue or play devil's advocate on it.

I threw in my . Carry on friend.

Good luck living in your neo-con fantasy world.

You have lost touch with reality.

You have made a religion out of neoconservatism. Bush is your god.

Sure they do ...It is called " Democracy , USA style ..."

from today ... no need to dig here :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...nce-blackwater


Democracy ....

True ... and line ups of Iraqis throwing shoes , just like an amusement park ...

So let's see... Hussein was the cheating whore... the Iraqis denied it and the US of A did the fucking/liberating? Is that the comparison you are making?

Ummmmm... did my friend fuck her in the ass without lube when he liberated me? Perhaps then yes, I am grateful.

Sorry... getting lost on your comparison.

Wasn't arguing at all. I appreciate people that debate as you did.

Your 2cents were appreciated. Thx.

Well, I was going to argue against being a neo-con, but honestly, I believe you meant it as an insult and I refuse to take it that way. The true definition of neo-con is basically a liberal that has either moved to the right or switched completely. They are not hard-core right wingers. Well, I have never felt fully Liberal in the slightest so moving right would make me totally conservative. I consider myself a moderate-conservative.

However, Cheney, Wolfowicz, perhaps even Bush are labeled as neo-cons (the first two at least) and I would not liken myself to them. I would say they are very conservative in comparison to me.

I support Choice on the abortion issue. Know what Rush say's that makes me? Spineless and indecisive!!!

I have not lost touch with reality as reality is perception. Your perception is different than mine, nothing more.

I don't worship at the foot of Bush and freely admit he made mistakes, as did those working for him and around him (congress anyone??). Do I lay the last 8 years completely at his feet? Nah. He's the President, nothing more. When it all goes great, who gets credit for your personal fame, fortune and wisdom? You of course. When it all goes to shit, who gets it? Well the man at the top. Must have been Bush's fault.

BTW... I don't hear anyone patting him on the back for the economic boom that everyone in this industry enjoyed from what.... 02-05ish?? perhaps 06.. still going now just not as crazy strong as before?? Oh yeah... he fucked everyone over and that's why we are in the mess with the economy the way it is, right? Gotta blame someone, why not him?

Not sure... but I do seem to recall this shitstorm that hit right around September of 01 where everyone was fearing that the economy was going to go to hell more than it already was due to some planes crashing into buildings. Not going to discuss that one at all, but it would seem to me that that administration did some things right to move the economy forward and made lots of people some pretty serious money (even prior to the housing bubble that has helped to create our current situation).... Point for the GWB good/bad guys??? LOL Probably not. I think Clinton was in on it and Obama was just beginning to try on his big boy pants... so lets give it to them, shall we? LMAO

Nothing in my original post was more than about why are we supporting or doing anything for countries/citizens of countries that show no respect for any of the support/finances/protection/what-have-you we have/are providing them? I didn't jump up and say... Praise GWB!!!! Not even close. If you can tell me why we dump money into these places just so they can tell us to fuck off.... be my guest. Calling me a delusional neo-con doesn't achieve that.

Sure makes for great GFY drama though

I just wonder how the history books will explain the golden shoe statue.

Brilliant thought. End the war, bring all the soldiers home. And let them do WHAT??? How many are there? 300k?? So do we really need another 290k unemployeed???

Almost milion of Iraqis were killed during "democratization". Iraq is totally destroyed and torned up into three pieces. Do you really expect they will be thankful for that ?

Unbelievable

The average Iraqi is NOT better off.... not yet anyway.

The US military has killed around 100,000 civilians (documented deaths, who knows what the real number is), and then tells the Iraqi people that they should be upset with insurgents because they are the ones who made the bombing necessary.

People have been without water and electricty for five years.

Iraq can't keep police officer positions filled. The workers just walk off the jobs.

It is a mess over there, and their lives were better under Saddam. That is a hard thing for some to swallow, but it's true.

Indeed.

More people died violent deaths in Iraq during the 6 years since the start of the invasion than during the 24 years Saddam Hussein's reign lasted, and living conditions for most were better before the invasion than after.

Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator, there can be no doubt about it. However, the forceful "liberation", which was opposed by a majority of the Iraqi people, was arguably worse than the previous situation.

The short answer is yes. You can not liberate people who do not want to be liberated. You can not force a western ethic and lifestyle on a completely different culture. Ramming it down their throat doesn't work.

They are not better off now than they were under Saddam. They are just being fucked over in fun and exciting new ways.

in america we throw bullets

People don't give Bush enough credit. He is a fucking smart guy, he has essentially moved the front of the war against radical Islam nutjobs to Iraq and Afganistan. Most of the muslim nutjobs fighting against the US in those 2 places aren't from the countries in which they are fighting, they are from places like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc, and instead of attacking you Americans on your home soil and in places around the world you travel to they are flocking to those shitholes.

Bush hating has become a religion for many of you, but the guy has definitely kept you all safer. These nutjobs dont care if you are democrat or republican, they despise you because you are American, and he has effectively shifted the battleground overseas so its not you that are being targeted.

That was during the Iraq-Iran war in which we were supporting and arming Iraq.

During a major battle Iraq targeted Iranians and pro-Iranian Kurds fighting with Iran. They, along with nearby civilians, were killed by the gas.

After the attack the US immediately came to the defense of Iraq, saying that Iranian fighters caused the need for the attack and are thus to blame for any civilian deaths.

Then in the 90's when Saddam became less friendly with the US, the story changes to Saddam purposely targeting civilians in the battle.

It has long been suspected that the US gave Saddam the very gas he used in that attack and in 2003 believed that the WMD's were still there and could be found and used as justification for a war.