Tubes, torrents, and piracy. A webmaster's take

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  • Snake Doctor
    I'm Lenny2 Bitch
    • Mar 2001
    • 13449

    #1

    Tubes, torrents, and piracy. A webmaster's take

    Last night as I was walking my dog, I was listening to an interview with Steve Knopper, author of Appetite for Self-Destruction: The Spectacular Crash of the Record Industry in the Digital Age

    It got me to thinking about the parallels between what the record industry has gone through (and is still going through) and what the adult industry is now starting to experience.

    Some of the biggest mistakes the record industry made were
    1) Eliminating the "single" in the early 90's
    This forced consumers to pay $18 for a full CD, even if all they wanted was one song. This is fairly similar to our business model that requires customers to pay 25-49 per month to access our entire members area, even if all they want is one scene.

    2) Not offering anything to compete with Napster.
    You may be thinking "how could they compete with something that was free?", but I'm not talking about price. For several years the ONLY WAY you could get digital music was illegally. It wasn't until Steve Jobs came along with the iPod and iTunes that customers were able to purchase digital songs that they could keep forever and listen to anywhere on any device they chose.

    Now, you may be thinking what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? I'm getting there.

    In the digital evolution of the music industry, the key players are the artists, the record labels, the pirates, and Steve Jobs (and others who have offered alternatives to his service)

    Artists - have always made most of their money by touring. I'm sure they're hurt a little bit by music piracy, but they've been getting fucked over by the record labels for years, and in some ways mass distribution of their wares can end up making them more money.
    In our business the "Artists" are the talent and the shooters. They get paid per scene anyways, and the talent can always shake their tits and asses in strip clubs as headliners to make money....so porn piracy isn't going to force any of these folks into the poorhouse.

    The Record Labels - These guys started by suing everyone and anyone, and they had some big victories (Napster), only to see something else pop up in it's place. They can't sue their way back to prosperity, it's like pushing against the ocean.
    Eventually they smartened up and signed a deal with Steve Jobs, and have since sold 6 billion tracks on iTunes. Their margins are much much smaller, but they're going to survive. I think we all know who these guys are in our business.

    The Pirates - Napster, Kazaa, Limewire, Bit torrent, etc. The biggest problem for these guys is that they don't make any money. Can't make any money.
    They became wildly popular in a very short period of time, but that popularity and user base never turned into money.
    In our industry we feel the effects of torrents, plus the infamous illegal tube site. I also don't see how these sites can be profitable in the long term.
    They can become wildly popular and heavily trafficked in a very short period of time....but the "give everything away for free and make money on the advertising" model has failed many times over. Most of the nation's newspapers are going bankrupt after following this model. (And I'm going to guess that the people running the New York Times etc are smarter than the guys running the average porn tube site)
    This is even more true when the nature of your business severely limits the type of advertisers you can get. Once the dating sites with fake profiles and the foreign girls on cam for $2+ per minute have run their course, there's really nothing else for them to sell. Not many advertisers want to jump into bed with porn sites built on piracy.

    Before you jump up and down and cheer about the imminent demise of these sites, realize that Napster shutting down didn't bring back the popularity of the $18 CD. It just opened the door for the next technology that gave the end users what they really wanted, rather than what the record labels wanted to sell.

    Steve Jobs - the right guy in the right place at the right time with the right idea and the ability to execute it. He's the one guy (other than consumers) who truly benefited from this situation. I wish I could tell you I had the equivalent idea for our industry...but if I did I'd be working on it, not writing this post.

    << continued >>
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  • Snake Doctor
    I'm Lenny2 Bitch
    • Mar 2001
    • 13449

    #2
    The biggest question for me, the webmaster, is where is my place in this scenario?
    I, like 95%+ of the people here am just an affiliate webmaster. I don't own any content (I have licenses for tons of content, but I don't own the copyrights for any of it), so I can't sue anyone for copyright infringement, and even if I could I doubt that would be a profitable endeavor or stem the tide of freely available content.

    I'm not a performer who can go on tour.

    I am not nor am I going to be a pirate, even if my morals would allow me to do that, I've already explained that it's not a profitable long term business model.

    I'm not Steve Jobs, nor would I benefit in any way if a Steve Jobs came along with a solution that would allow the industry to profit from the situation.

    Basically what is comes down to, is as an affiliate webmaster, I'm a record store owner.

    All I have is traffic, and the know-how to generate traffic. However, even the most popular and heavily advertised record store isn't going to survive for long in the digital music age.

    Even the traffic dynamic is changing. The most popular free sites in the world are losing their surfers to tube sites.
    You can't blame the surfers, one place has headphones where you can stop by and listen to songs off of a CD, the new place is giving away the entire CD for free.

    Even the old stand-by profit machine, organic search engine traffic, is changing. Search for "sitename.com", or "pornstar name", and in alot of cases "niche name", and at least one if not several of the top 10 results are for a torrent containing that content.

    If I were a record store owner at the height of Napster's popularity, I would either have to close my store and find a new line of work, or at the very least start selling other things in my store and become a "Music and <<other thing>>" store, that would eventually morph into solely an "<<other thing>>" store.

    Dropping the price on my records, chaining my records to the counter so nobody could leave with them, suing Napster, complaining to everyone that walks by, tearing my clothes and doing the sackloth and ashes routine, none of that is going to bring back the 8 track, the 33, or make customers want to buy an $18 CD.

    <<continued>>
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    Comment

    • Snake Doctor
      I'm Lenny2 Bitch
      • Mar 2001
      • 13449

      #3
      I guess I said all of that to say, that if anyone has any suggestions for what that <<other thing>> I should sell ought to be, please let me know. (as long as it's not dating or cams, I'm talking non-adult)

      If you have any advice on making a transition from adult to mainstream (i.e. what types of products/services to sell, what type of sites to build, etc) I'm all ears.
      This can and probably should be done privately. I am willing to do partnerships, link trades, sign up under your ref codes....to a lesser extent I'd be willing to pay for advice from the right person via a consulting fee or percentage.

      When I first got started in adult, and asked how to make money (back in early 2000) someone pointed me to greenguy's and tommy's sites, told me to surf the top 20 links there,.....then sign up for ARS or Maxcash and build sites like those and submit them. I kind of figured out the rest by myself along the way.
      I'm kind of looking for the same type of "point me in the right direction" help here. Even if it's just a link to a good resource site like a mainstream version of cozy frog.

      You can email me
      lenny at bigeasynetworks.com
      or ICQ 78465690

      plskthx
      sig too big

      Comment

      • KillerK
        Confirmed User
        • May 2008
        • 3406

        #4
        You miss one major point though.

        The illegal Tube and Torrent sites make HUGE HUGE HUGE profits.

        Comment

        • tiger
          Confirmed User
          • Apr 2002
          • 6986

          #5
          Good read, thanks.

          Comment

          • Snake Doctor
            I'm Lenny2 Bitch
            • Mar 2001
            • 13449

            #6
            Originally posted by KillerK
            You miss one major point though.

            The illegal Tube and Torrent sites make HUGE HUGE HUGE profits.
            Says you. My sources and logic tell me otherwise.....and either way, they're not going to be around long term.....they're just today's version of Napster.

            A business model based on theft or piracy isn't going to last very long.

            And EVEN IF you're right and I'm wrong, it doesn't affect my place in all of this, because I'm not going to cast my lot with thieves.
            Last edited by Snake Doctor; 01-27-2009, 08:55 AM.
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            Comment

            • Barefootsies
              Choice is an Illusion
              • Feb 2005
              • 42635

              #7
              Very well thought out, and excellent explanation and reflection.

              I have explained the answer time and again at shows, and on here. No one wants to hear them because at the end of the day, especially with programs going under, they are greedy. As one program owner told me... making custom banners, and putting in the work for the affiliate that 'may' send one sale is worth it to them for $35 PPS.

              So supplying free hosting, content, domains, to ANY affiliate whether proven or not has been the greedy way to doing things. Now the market is flooded by every beer money barons and surfer who just had to sign up and got all your content for free.

              Instead, you should have had minimums, and requirements, and raised the bar for entry. You can still, over time, solve this. However, greed and short term thinking combined with this economy and companies on the verge of going out of business, will never change.

              You are not going to, easily, put the genie back in the bottle. Year's ago, many program, cut their own throats.

              Now reep what you've sown. Enjoy the tailspin.

              Last edited by Barefootsies; 01-27-2009, 08:57 AM.
              Should You Email Your Members?

              Link1 | Link2 | Link3

              Enough Said.

              "Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

              Comment

              • Simon_Spicecash
                Confirmed User
                • Jun 2007
                • 524

                #8
                Originally posted by KillerK
                You miss one major point though.

                The illegal Tube and Torrent sites make HUGE HUGE HUGE profits.
                I have a feeling this might be a bubble that'll burst. mark womack of madisonavenue.com i remember had a good argument back at cybernet 2008, and I tend to agree with him.

                Companies are throwing huge dollars at any and all tubes with traffic - just to block the other guy, so the tubes jack the prices...because they can. However, eventually this "auction" will get so high, and non profitable for any advertiser that they'll just have to bail out.

                I think eventually advertising dollars on tubes will thin, and as a result, sites like megavideo are offering a "premium access" type deal.

                Tubes are convenient as hell - before, we paysite owners I think thrived on people who weren't all that tech savvy, and didn't want to deal with torrents or p2p and just wanted the convenience and ease of a paysite...however, tubes are actually EASIER, more DIVERSE, and CHEAPER than most paysites. The three words I capitalized are the 3 most important things to a consumer (based on my own personal experience anyway).

                I think tubes will be around forever, whether they charge a small fee, or whether the advertising dollars continue to flow in. So - I think our challenge is to basically make our paysites worth purchasing. I think the days of slapping up a 20 minute update a week and thinking our members will be happy, are over.

                So...who has some ideas to make paysites worth the money? What are you using to make your paysite worth the money? What have you innovated recently?

                I just launched www.femdombride.com, through spicecash.com - we do live free webcam shows weekly in which the members can tell Goddess Starla how to torture her husband...we also offer key holding services, we try and create an emotional bond with our members - and in turn, our retention thus far has been pretty damn good.

                So...anyone care to share how your creating a better place for your members?

                Comment

                • Elli
                  Reach for those stars!
                  • Apr 2003
                  • 17991

                  #9
                  Even if a given tube site isn't profitable enough to stay in business longer than a year, there are thousands of others in the line, willing to take the traffic and fill its place. It's not just Napster or BearShare anymore.
                  email: [email protected]

                  Comment

                  • Simon_Spicecash
                    Confirmed User
                    • Jun 2007
                    • 524

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Barefootsies
                    Very well thought out, and excellent explanation and reflection.

                    I have explained the answer time and again at shows, and on here. No one wants to hear them because at the end of the day, especially with programs going under, they are greedy. As one program owner told me... making custom banners, and putting in the work for the affiliate that 'may' send one sale is worth it to them for $35 PPS.

                    So supplying free hosting, content, domains, to ANY affiliate whether proven or not has been the greedy way to doing things. Now the market is flooded by every beer money barons and surfer who just had to sign up and got all your content for free.

                    Instead, you should have had minimums, and requirements, and raised the bar for entry. You can still, over time, solve this. However, greed and short term thinking combined with this economy and companies on the verge of going out of business, will never change.

                    You are not going to, easily, put the genie back in the bottle. Year's ago, many program, cut their own throats.

                    Now reep what you've sown. Enjoy the tailspin.


                    AWESOME points.

                    Comment

                    • HandballJim
                      Confirmed User
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 4024

                      #11
                      I don't download anything to save anymore, it just takes up space. For music I stick with the am/fm radio, internet radio, and youtube. For movies, 500 cable channels, and borrow dvds from friends. Porn, heck their is over 5 million adult websites...99% of them at least give you a free sample. Even Free cams out there.

                      Something new, if someone had a great idea he is not posting it on here with a many pro-webmasters.

                      For mainstream, it is going to be about who is going to offer something that is easy and least time consuming. We just want things done faster, pay bills quicker, banking, medical, customer service....smarter and faster. Make this happen

                      For example Ebay sucks these days, who has more money and technology with a great domain name and better system.....and you can steal this market. Even facebook is fucking lame, but can you make something better...maybe with cams, etc. I have the ideas but not the technology sense to make it happen.
                      HOW I MAKE LOTS OF $$$

                      Comment

                      • WarChild
                        Let slip the dogs of war.
                        • Jan 2003
                        • 17263

                        #12
                        The fact that you don't think Tubes make money and you go on to compare newspaper advertising to online websites pretty much set the tone for just how serious I take you. Not very.
                        .

                        Comment

                        • Snake Doctor
                          I'm Lenny2 Bitch
                          • Mar 2001
                          • 13449

                          #13
                          Originally posted by WarChild
                          The fact that you don't think Tubes make money and you go on to compare newspaper advertising to online websites pretty much set the tone for just how serious I take you. Not very.
                          Damn, and my whole reason for starting this thread was to win your approval.

                          Now what am I going to do with the rest of my life?
                          sig too big

                          Comment

                          • Barefootsies
                            Choice is an Illusion
                            • Feb 2005
                            • 42635

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Snake Doctor
                            Now what am I going to do with the rest of my life?
                            Should You Email Your Members?

                            Link1 | Link2 | Link3

                            Enough Said.

                            "Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

                            Comment

                            • tony299
                              lurker
                              • Aug 2002
                              • 57021

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Elli
                              Even if a given tube site isn't profitable enough to stay in business longer than a year, there are thousands of others in the line, willing to take the traffic and fill its place. It's not just Napster or BearShare anymore.
                              and most of them have aff ads on them imagine that.

                              Comment

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