Illegally Downloading Hollywood Movies... Right or Wrong?

[Darkland]

Okay... This topic was hidden in a movie thread that might not get the exposure the discussion turned into so here is its very own thread. As the title conveys, there seem to be a few among us who feel downloading movies is a perfectly acceptable practice and is in no way considered theft. This is quite surprising coming from a community that is battling its own war with stolen content.

Refering to discussions from this thread:

Bama believes that since he pays a cable bill, that gives him the right to illegally download any hollywood movie. Here is where he states his case.

He wanted reasons for why he his belief is wrong, I gave it to him, yet he claims he still has the right to NOT PAY FOR THEM.

Originally Posted by Darkland

Okay... name calling aside. Lets look at it this way.

You say since you pay for cable and all the premium channels, you have the right to every hollywood movie "FREE OF CHARGE" since cable and the premium channels pay the movie studios for it.

1. It isn't free of charge, you are paying your monthly cable bill. Anything above and beyond that IS NOT AN ALL EXCLUSIVE CHARGE for a free for all access pass to anything you want.
2. If NONE of those channels are airing said movie then your rationale falls short again.
3. No cable channel, premium or otherwise, airs movies still in theatres so again, your rationale falls short.
4. Even IF they HAVE aired said movie but isn't in the current roster, that still does not give you the right to it or any other Hollywood movie just because you pay a cable bill.

So lets assume for a minute that you were brought up on charges and we are standing in front of a judge or a jury. You really think they are going to buy this theory of yours?

No.

Here was his response to that.

So I went into more detail with this:

Originally Posted by Darkland

Wrong. With the advent of TIVO it is a perfectly exceptable means of watching programs that have been offered to you for your monthly cable subscription. THIS falls under the basis of your argument, NOT the illegally downloading of movies off of torrents or the like.



Yes... And they are not free and are usually higher in price. Why is it more expensive? Because they are offering you to see it earlier than its DVD release date. You ARE NOT paying a higher price to get carte blanche on it from that day forward. It is a one time transaction.

You think Wal-Mart, any store for that matter, would just let you walk out with a movie and not pay for it because you believe you only have to pay for something once?



No it doesn't... See TIVO answer above. If you still have it on TIVO, YES.



And now for the coup de grâce. No monetary or possible ramifications? You MUST be joking.

When a movie gets released, someone has already hit on this a bit, its success is based on the amount of money it makes first and its popularity second. So if a good movie comes out and most decide they would rather illegally download it at home, there are MANY negative affects.

1. The main effect is if a movie doesn't make enough revenue. Even though it might be a masterpiece, it will become hard to find a DVD distributor. This is specifically important in the Independent Movie arena. So not only would they be getting screwed at the box office, now their income is continued to be offset by inability to distribute. You think cable channels pay top dollar to air box office flops?

2. It's lack of success can lead to the writer, director, producers, etc. never getting work again or push their career back for making a movie that didn't bring in enough revenue. Same with the actors.

3. Your rationale only pans out at far as the Hollywood Studios and ends there. What about all those people who depend on royalities or percentages of profits, rentals, DVD purchases, etc. If you are illegally downloading movies you have COMPLETELY screwed these people out of their hard work. This is especially true in the case of independent movies where normal salaries are often traded for a percentage in future earnings.

What you are doing is stealing, plain and simple. Your "I pay a cable bill" is not a justification for a free for all on anything you want. Paying a cable bill entitles you to a SERVICE ONLY not a RIGHT to every movie ever made.

His rebuttal:

Originally Posted by Bama

Seems that you're not too pleased that my opinion is different than yours, but that's ok, we can agree to disagree. You weren't successful in swaying my opinion though.

Until you hop off your horse and realize that, every single time you fast forward through the commercials of any and every television show you've ever taped, you're robbing the studios of revenue. The sponsors pay huge sums of money to deliver their message to you and you skip right past it...

There isn't one among you that don't do it - and please, just don't even try to make me believe you don't - so if you think my hands are dirty - your hands are just as dirty and you're just as guilty... and I just can't tolerate being preached to by a hypocrite.

So lets here some feedback... To me this argument is total bullshit, as well as any other reason ever given to justify illegally downloading a movie.

I have heard the following as well:
1. I downloaded it to see if it was good or not... Then why not go out and spend the 3 or 4 bucks to RENT IT.
2. I don't like going to the theatres... Then wait till it comes out on DVD and RENT IT.

So what is your view on this topic. Let the discussion begin.

[Fletch XXX]

stealing is bad, hugs are good

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

stealing is bad, hugs are good

I had to take my kids' computer away because they wouldn't stop downloading songs off limewire. They then wanted to know how they were suppossed to get music. These are teens we are talking about and they couldn't even stumble upon the idea that they should have to PAY for what they take.

[Fletch XXX]

Originally Posted by Darkland

I had to take my kids' computer away because they wouldn't stop downloading songs off limewire. They then wanted to know how they were suppossed to get music. These are teens we are talking about and they couldn't even stumble upon the idea that they should have to PAY for what they take.

i was trading "metal tapes" with other kids in 1987. The concept of "paying for music" didnt exist in my vocab yet, I was 11. ;)

However, I DID purchase Master of Puppets and Sepultura Schizophrenia in later years LOL

[cherrylula]

I once copied a movie on vhs from the tv. Is that bad?

[StuartD]

Wrong - however I do it anyway as I use it as a basis to judge whether or not to purchase the movie.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by cherrylula

I once copied a movie on vhs from the tv. Is that bad?

Not that it has any bearing on this topic and as already covered in my initial posts, anything that connects to your TV for the sole purposes of recording is acceptable. TIVO, DVR, VCR's, etc.

I suppose it all depends on what you do afterwards. Making copies and handing them out to people or charging people to watch your recorded copy obviously is illegal as stated by the law.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by StuartD

Wrong - however I do it anyway as I use it as a basis to judge whether or not to purchase the movie.

Nice to know... so if you don't happen to like the movie you just completely screwed those people out of there money?

I still fail to see the rationale in this as you are fully capable of renting it for this exact same reason.

[kane]

This is purely my opinion and is not based on any laws.

1. If the movie is still only available in theaters and you download it you are stealing it.

2. If the movie is only available on DVD and you download it you are stealing it.

3. If the movie is available on pay per view and you pay to watch and you record it to watch again later, that is fine. However if you pay to watch it and still download it this might be wrong. This one is a slippery slope. If I buy a pay per view movie then have to leave in the middle of it I should be allowed to record it and watch it in full at a later time, but that doesn't mean I get to own it and watch it whenever I want. Some pay per view services now allow you to pay once and watch the movie as many times as you want in 24 or 48 hours which is a nice offer.

4. If the movie is available on HBO, Showtime or some premium cable service and you are a subscriber of that service you should be allowed to record the show, but like #3 this doesn't entitle you to own it.

5. If the movie is on basic cable or free broadcast TV I don't have a problem with it being downloaded. I understand the idea that there is an agreement made that you will watch the commercials in exchange for getting to see the movie and that some movies are edited to play on TV so they are not exactly the same as the original version, but I think once a movie has trickled down to these markets downloading it does very little harm to the studio/producers.

[pornguy]

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

stealing is bad, hugs are good

ONly hugs with topless busty women..

[Machete_]

thepiratebay was blocked by mosts ISP's today here in denmark. One down - 500000 to go

[Fletch XXX]

Some movies i severly regret ever purchasing on DVD:

Snakes on a plane
Austin Powers 1,2,3
and countless others

name yours!

[Holly]

I've never downloaded a movie because I'm too lazy to do that shit and I'll just wait for Netflix. But if I wanted to, I would.

And I have Limewire running right now.

[Fletch XXX]

for the record, ive never downloaded a single movie either.

only thing im guilty of is watching a couple episodes of South park on allsp.com however, I own every South park box set released and even bought some in orginal single disc format before they released the box sets lol

i think there is difference between "watching" an episode and downloading it though. Ive never downloaded movies or episodes, but because i dont watch tv i have used internet site to see the previous nights South park... but i didnt retain a copy for myself

[kane]

Originally Posted by Darkland

I had to take my kids' computer away because they wouldn't stop downloading songs off limewire. They then wanted to know how they were suppossed to get music. These are teens we are talking about and they couldn't even stumble upon the idea that they should have to PAY for what they take.

I know what you mean. My brother's sister in law is proud of the fact that she has a Netflix account and makes illegal copies of every DVD she gets. The funny thing is she hasn't watched half of them. She has over 800 burned DVDs now and has maybe watched 300 of them, but she keeps getting and burning them as fast as she can and never misses a chance to talk about how many DVDs she has. She also has limewire and is happy to teach her kids and my brother's kids how to download music off of it and when I asked her about it she told me she wasn't sorry for it because these people were rich and wouldn't miss a few extra dollars.

I read a great article on Rick Rubin a while back and when he became the new head of Columbia Records he put together focus groups that brought in listeners from age 14 to 22 and found out that not only did almost all of them download music, most of them didn't consider it stealing.

There is an entire generation now to whom paying for music is an alien idea.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by kane

...

I agree with most of what you said, and most of your examples was in regard to "recording" which I think it fine as that is a paid service. This is why we have Tivo, DVR's and the like.

I am mostly talking about recent or still in theatre movies.

However, I dissagree with you on point 5. Just because a movie occasionally makes it to regular TV, doesn't give us a free for all to it when it suits us. Walk into a store, grab a movie and on the way out tell security, "Hey, its okay, I don't need to pay for this. I saw it on (fill in your channel here) last night."

[Fletch XXX]

Originally Posted by kane

There is an entire generation now to whom paying for music is an alien idea.

they shoulve never killed VINYL.

With the compact disc came less respect for artwork on the covers as well as appreciation for the music itself.

Id prefer to buy vinyl, shit i still do. LOL

[kane]

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

Some movies i severly regret ever purchasing on DVD:

Snakes on a plane
Austin Powers 1,2,3
and countless others

name yours!

Luckily for me I don't think I have ever regretted buying a DVD. I probably only own about 25 DVDs though. I have to really like a movie and know that I will watch it multiple times in order for me to buy it.

The way I look at it this: If I know I am likely to watch the movie 3 or more times in the future it is worth buying the DVD. If not, I will just rent it because buying it is wasting money.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

Some movies i severly regret ever purchasing on DVD:

Snakes on a plane
Austin Powers 1,2,3
and countless others

name yours!

Ugghhh... To many to name, I have almost 1,000 DVD's in my library. I did have Snakes On A Plane but gave it away, the only good part of it was when SLJ cried out, "I'm tired of these mother fucking snakes on this mother fucking plane."

Originally Posted by Holly

I've never downloaded a movie because I'm too lazy to do that shit and I'll just wait for Netflix. But if I wanted to, I would.

And I have Limewire running right now.

Netflix is the shit. I love it. $18 a month for unlimited viewing pleasure.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Darkland

Not that it has any bearing on this topic and as already covered in my initial posts, anything that connects to your TV for the sole purposes of recording is acceptable. TIVO, DVR, VCR's, etc.

I suppose it all depends on what you do afterwards. Making copies and handing them out to people or charging people to watch your recorded copy obviously is illegal as stated by the law.

both sides seem to be going overboard on this arguement

taking something you never paid for (movie still in the theater) because you paid for cable (although the arguement could be paid the product placement paid -- ala piracy tax in canada) is wrong.

likewise saying that it is illegal for me to give someone else a copy of my tape so they can catch up show they missed on tv when the betamax case ruling clearly gave us such a right is also wrong. In the 70s if my vcr failed and i went to a friend who had taped knight rider and borrowed his tape that was legal under the betamax case.

Using a torrent is just the modern day equivalent to that act.

The middle ground is much better, recover, timeshift anything you paid for. Don't for anything you didn't pay for.

[kane]

Originally Posted by Darkland

I agree with most of what you said, and most of your examples was in regard to "recording" which I think it fine as that is a paid service. This is why we have Tivo, DVR's and the like.

I am mostly talking about recent or still in theatre movies.

However, I dissagree with you on point 5. Just because a movie occasionally makes it to regular TV, doesn't give us a free for all to it when it suits us. Walk into a store, grab a movie and on the way out tell security, "Hey, its okay, I don't need to pay for this. I saw it on (fill in your channel here) last night."

I do agree with you in principle. A great example is all the DVDs of TV shows. If you go into your local store and want to just walk out with the new season of The Simpsons on DVD they won't accept you just telling them that it is on free TV so it is okay for you to take it.

For me I was mostly referencing major movies that start their lives in theaters. By the time they eventually get to free TV of basic cable they are pretty much played out in the other markets and I think downloading them doesn't do that much damage to them. I will agree that it isn't really right, but I think if you are going to download a movie that is the time when it does the least damage.

When it comes to movie that are still in the theater it is always wrong.

[salesqueenxxx]

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

stealing is bad, hugs are good

[Fletch XXX]

Originally Posted by Darkland

Ugghhh... To many to name, I have almost 1,000 DVD's in my library. I did have Snakes On A Plane but gave it away, the only good part of it was when SLJ cried out, "I'm tired of these mother fucking snakes on this mother fucking plane."

the ONLY part worth watching was when the hot blonde with big boobs smokes joint and gets fucked in plane bathroom.

the entire movie was shit after that. i have only watched the dvd once and would use it as a coaster if i drank beer still...

[kane]

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

they shoulve never killed VINYL.

With the compact disc came less respect for artwork on the covers as well as appreciation for the music itself.

Id prefer to buy vinyl, shit i still do. LOL

One of my biggest regrets in my life is selling off all my vinyl records. I was a child of the 80's so vinyl was on its way out and replaced with the cassette when I was a kid, but they were still around. I also was very into the indie music scene and a lot of those bands released stuff on vinyl. I didn't have a huge collection, but I probably had about 700 albums. My turntable died and I just decided to get rid of the albums and get them on CD. At the time it seemed like a good idea, now I wish I hadn't done it.

There is nothing like putting on a record and listening to it while you look at the big album cover and the artwork inside.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Darkland

However, I dissagree with you on point 5. Just because a movie occasionally makes it to regular TV, doesn't give us a free for all to it when it suits us. Walk into a store, grab a movie and on the way out tell security, "Hey, its okay, I don't need to pay for this. I saw it on (fill in your channel here) last night."

when you take a dvd out of the store you prevent someone else from buying that copy.

When you make a copy (download from the internet) you don't prevent any sale

huge difference

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

both sides seem to be going overboard on this arguement

taking something you never paid for (movie still in the theater) because you paid for cable (although the arguement could be paid the product placement paid -- ala piracy tax in canada) is wrong.

likewise saying that it is illegal for me to give someone else a copy of my tape so they can catch up show they missed on tv when the betamax case ruling clearly gave us such a right is also wrong. In the 70s if my vcr failed and i went to a friend who had taped knight rider and borrowed his tape that was legal under the betamax case.

Using a torrent is just the modern day equivalent to that act.

The middle ground is much better, recover, timeshift anything you paid for. Don't for anything you didn't pay for.

I didn't say anything about not letting a friend borrow it, I said making copies and just start handing them out to PEOPLE (read piracy) not hookin a brother up.

And what is this timeshift bullshit... I bought a snickers once, that mean all further snickers are free of charge? Sounds to me just another excuse to justify the actions of a thief.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

when you take a dvd out of the store you prevent someone else from buying that copy.

Tell me you are no that thick. THEFT is depriving the store of its money, not the potential for someone to buy it.

Originally Posted by gideongallery

When you make a copy (download from the internet) you don't prevent any sale

huge difference

No, you screw the filmmakers out of their money.

Yeah... that isn't theft, what was I thinking? </sarcasm>

[Fletch XXX]

Originally Posted by kane

One of my biggest regrets in my life is selling off all my vinyl records. I was a child of the 80's so vinyl was on its way out and replaced with the cassette when I was a kid, but they were still around. I also was very into the indie music scene and a lot of those bands released stuff on vinyl. I didn't have a huge collection, but I probably had about 700 albums. My turntable died and I just decided to get rid of the albums and get them on CD. At the time it seemed like a good idea, now I wish I hadn't done it.

There is nothing like putting on a record and listening to it while you look at the big album cover and the artwork inside.

i still collect vinyl. Ive been collecting music since I was very young. My mom was a KISS fan, so I am used to album cover worship and collecting albums.

I have a closet ull of vinyl and still have my technics 1200s heheh

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by Fletch XXX

i still collect vinyl. Ive been collecting music since I was very young. My mom was a KISS fan, so I am used to album cover worship and collecting albums.

I have a closet ull of vinyl and still have my technics 1200s heheh

Never was much into music but my dad was. I will be inheriting some pretty good shit from the 60's and 70's.

[Fletch XXX]

Originally Posted by Darkland

Never was much into music but my dad was. I will be inheriting some pretty good shit from the 60's and 70's.

my mom used to play KISS and Alice Cooper when cleaning the house when i was a couple years old and it fucked me up. I knew "shock rock" before any other type of music.

The first time I laid eyes on her copy of Alice Cooper goes to Hell i was mesmerizeed by the album artwork and ive collected music ever since she gave me all her vinyl.



i dont just listen to music, i collect it heheh like R Crumb.

music is the most important thing in my life, i surround myself with it every day...

[JamesK]

I do download movies now and then. I however do end up buying the originals if I like the movies. Same with music, but I purchase merchandise and CD's if I like the group/band.

Guess some people find it wrong and will call me a thief, no exceptions. I'm fine with that, I just don't like paying for bad shit.

I also have a subscription to cable TV but that argument is plain bullshit as paying $10 a month to a TV company doesn't exactly support your favorite movie.

[Voodoo]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

when you take a dvd out of the store you prevent someone else from buying that copy.

When you make a copy (download from the internet) you don't prevent any sale

huge difference

You sir, are the definition of antillectual. How fucking stupid are you? Did your inbred father fuck the brains out of you too much in your childhood? I mean seriously. I can't fathom the extent of the sheer void of any coherant thought in either of your statements.

Let me begin:
"when you take a dvd out of the store you prevent someone else from buying that copy. When you make a copy (download from the internet) you don't prevent any sale"

HOLY FUCKING DUMB FUCK BATMAN!

Let me break this down a little bit more...
"when you take a dvd out of the store you prevent someone else from buying that copy."

Ok, here we go... When you STEAL a movie off of a shelf, you are a thief. That movie will get replaced by the STOCK SUPPLY that most places have on hand from the back room. If that supply does not have another to replace it with, it gets added to the following week's PO for stock. Your statement is fucking rediculous, and you are a brainless cow turd of a human being.

Let's move on...
"When you make a copy (download from the internet) you don't prevent any sale"

What TYPE of egg did you hatch from? Apparently it was layed by a retarded chicken. Perhaps one of the ones that Nuggets come from?

When you download a movie from the internet, YOU are not BUYING the fucking movie. Hence, YOU are the one being prevented from purchasing it. Not someone else. It's YOU who is not spending the money. You are the fucking idiot thief in this instance.

Go soak yourself in BBQ sauce and jump into some fat fucks mouth, you retarded nugget fuck.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Darkland

Tell me you are no that thick. THEFT is depriving the store of its money, not the potential for someone to buy it.

when you take a physical item you do both.
assuming you never bought the right to view (never paid for the cable)

No, you screw the filmmakers out of their money.

under your example the downloader is not because he paid for the show when he paid his cable. He is simply using the torrent to shift the time he will view it to another time (like the betamax case and vcr)

The shoplifter is also timeshifting, however he is also prevent the sale of that item to someone who doesn't have that timeshifting right, or prefers to have a hard copy physical good.

Yeah... that isn't theft, what was I thinking? </sarcasm>

copyright infringement is not theft never will be never has been.
Taking something physically is theft.
copyright infringment is a fraud ( a false claim to having a right to view).

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by JamesK

I do download movies now and then. I however do end up buying the originals if I like the movies. Same with music, but I purchase merchandise and CD's if I like the group/band.

Why not spend the few bucks to rent it instead? If a couple bucks is all it takes to separate myself as being a law abiding citizen or a thief, then the decision is quite obvious. At least to those with a modicum of moral fiber.

Originally Posted by JamesK

Guess some people find it wrong and will call me a thief, no exceptions. I'm fine with that, I just don't like paying for bad shit.

This is no excuse when it comes to matters of individual taste. If you are a war film fanatic and watch a romance movie that you didn't like, that doesn't give you the right to NOT have to pay for it.

Originally Posted by JamesK

I also have a subscription to cable TV but that argument is plain bullshit as paying $10 a month to a TV company doesn't exactly support your favorite movie.

[brassmonkey]

Originally Posted by ebus_dk

thepiratebay was blocked by mosts ISP's today here in denmark. One down - 500000 to go

haha its not just them good luck stopping the beast

[TheDoc]

If you watch movies online, and would never otherwise rent the movie or watch it period, and it makes you a fan and you buy the dvd or rent it.. is that a bad thing?


What about people that buy a dvd, use the hell out of it. Give it to a neighbor, then the neighbor makes a backup for himself, then sells the org at a bookstore. The bookstore sells it to joe, to sells it on ebay, back to the guy that gave me the dvd anyway because he forgot he gave it away... all legal of course.

Why can I buy a DVD in the real world, make a copy, give away or sell the org, and 100 other people could do the same..

But the second you stream it online.. the studio, actors, ect all the sudden lose out, it's stealing? Righttttt... but even so, I give a shit. Without piracy, I wouldn't legally own 50% of the movies I do.

I would own more if the DVD's where about 75% cheaper, actually at real value..



BTW, Commercials were put in to pay actors, news anchors, and so on more money than they are worth. You subscribe to the channels otherwise. As if the people on Friends should have ever made more than a few 100k each year for the few months of lame work they have to do.


Piracy people.. You guys keep thinking it hurts, it has more made fans, more people talking about, more money, more growth, more everything... Look at the damn movie industry, it's booming... and they are still putting out total trash and over paying everyone!

Piracy has help make some of these people how they are today... without it, the industry would be dead.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Voodoo

You sir, are the definition of antillectual. How fucking stupid are you? Did your inbred father fuck the brains out of you too much in your childhood? I mean seriously. I can't fathom the extent of the sheer void of any coherant thought in either of your statements.

Let me begin:
"when you take a dvd out of the store you prevent someone else from buying that copy. When you make a copy (download from the internet) you don't prevent any sale"

HOLY FUCKING DUMB FUCK BATMAN!

Let me break this down a little bit more...
"when you take a dvd out of the store you prevent someone else from buying that copy."

Ok, here we go... When you STEAL a movie off of a shelf, you are a thief. That movie will get replaced by the STOCK SUPPLY that most places have on hand from the back room. If that supply does not have another to replace it with, it gets added to the following week's PO for stock. Your statement is fucking rediculous, and you are a brainless cow turd of a human being.

Let's move on...
"When you make a copy (download from the internet) you don't prevent any sale"

What TYPE of egg did you hatch from? Apparently it was layed by a retarded chicken. Perhaps one of the ones that Nuggets come from?

When you download a movie from the internet, YOU are not BUYING the fucking movie. Hence, YOU are the one being prevented from purchasing it. Not someone else. It's YOU who is not spending the money. You are the fucking idiot thief in this instance.

Go soak yourself in BBQ sauce and jump into some fat fucks mouth, you retarded nugget fuck.

that is the stupidest statement i have ever heard, you just argued it better to steal a physical item then to download a copy.

The key point you are missing in the example is that in both cases the arguement is that YOU ALREADY BOUGHT THE SHOW, when you paid your cable.

So you have paid for it already, when you download it you are simply not paying for it TWICE.

In the case of going in a store and taking an item, you are reducing the stock. Since there is no such thing as an infinite stock, the act reduces the amount of inventory of the company, increases the likelyhood that the item will run out when another person wants to buy. Even if you lived in a world where the backroom was an infinite supply of the items, the store had to pay for that physical item, it represented a cost of goods sold
which disappears without the associated profit.

Downloading content YOU ALREADY PAID FOR, is just recovery/timeshifting.

Re read my post i said my point of view is the middle ground, timeshift the stuff you paid for (past tense) don't touch the stuff you haven't.

Your arguement is the opposite side of the coin to bama's i have a right to everything because at some point in the future it will exist on tv ("reverse timeshifting" was what it was called when i argued against it in a previous thread).

[notime]

when no movies are made anymore, people will realise it in the end.
They would have to do without and start reading books again maybe?

The Music industry makes more on licensing merchandise and live concerts then they do on cd sales....
the software industry is better protected by law and are lucky to be offering online multiplayer gaming and selling extra levels, etc.

[mynameisjim]

The crux of this whole thing is the misunderstanding that just because a new delivery method has emerged for digital media that somehow it means the public can now determine how and where certain types of media are distributed.

This argument is not taking place in any other industry. Nobody is arguing that you should get cable TV for free, that you should get high speed internet for free, that you should get food or cars for free. Nobody is arguing that you should be able to walk into a movie theater for free.

[jalami]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

copyright infringement is not theft never will be never has been.
Taking something physically is theft.
copyright infringment is a fraud ( a false claim to having a right to view).

So true... this is the biggest misuse of the word "theft," which has a strict definition should never include downloading movies or other copyright infringement. The use of the word "pirate" and "piracy" makes me laugh, too... it even seems to glorify the activity.

[Voodoo]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

that is the stupidest statement i have ever heard, you just argued it better to steal a physical item then to download a copy.

The key point you are missing in the example is that in both cases the arguement is that YOU ALREADY BOUGHT THE SHOW, when you paid your cable.

So you have paid for it already, when you download it you are simply not paying for it TWICE.

In the case of going in a store and taking an item, you are reducing the stock. Since there is no such thing as an infinite stock, the act reduces the amount of inventory of the company, increases the likelyhood that the item will run out when another person wants to buy. Even if you lived in a world where the backroom was an infinite supply of the items, the store had to pay for that physical item, it represented a cost of goods sold
which disappears without the associated profit.

Downloading content YOU ALREADY PAID FOR, is just recovery/timeshifting.

Re read my post i said my point of view is the middle ground, timeshift the stuff you paid for (past tense) don't touch the stuff you haven't.

Your arguement is the opposite side of the coin to bama's i have a right to everything because at some point in the future it will exist on tv ("reverse timeshifting" was what it was called when i argued against it in a previous thread).

Is it legal to download works from peer-to-peer networks and if not, what is the penalty for doing so?
Uploading or downloading works protected by copyright without the authority of the copyright owner is an infringement of the copyright owner's exclusive rights of reproduction and/or distribution. Anyone found to have infringed a copyrighted work may be liable for statutory damages up to $30,000 for each work infringed and, if willful infringement is proven by the copyright owner, that amount may be increased up to $150,000 for each work infringed. In addition, an infringer of a work may also be liable for the attorney's fees incurred by the copyright owner to enforce his or her rights.

Whether or not a particular work is being made available under the authority of the copyright owner is a question of fact. But since any original work of authorship fixed in a tangible medium (including a computer file) is protected by federal copyright law upon creation, in the absence of clear information to the contrary, most works may be assumed to be protected by federal copyright law.

Since the files distributed over peer-to-peer networks are primarily copyrighted works, there is a risk of liability for downloading material from these networks. To avoid these risks, there are currently many "authorized" services on the Internet that allow consumers to purchase copyrighted works online, whether music, ebooks, or motion pictures. By purchasing works through authorized services, consumers can avoid the risks of infringement liability and can limit their exposure to other potential risks, e.g., viruses, unexpected material, or spyware.

For more information on this issue, see the Register of Copyrights' testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee.

##################################

When you pay for your cable bill, you are paying for the SERVICE, not OWNERSHIP of the content. You are paying to WATCH THE PROGRAM SCHEDULE that the SERVICE provides to you. TiVo and other DVR systems are also a SERVICE to record the content so you can watch it later. You DO NOT OWN THE CONTENT ON YOUR DVR, nor can you distribute it, or make copies of it, or download it from the internet because you paid your bill!!! Jesus, you fucking nuggets need to pick up a book every once in a while.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

blah blah blah

Just for shits and grins, I did some searching on "timeshifting" and failed to find it defined as you are defining it. However, I did find all definitions of "Timeshifting" as follows:

Time shifting is the recording of programming to a storage medium to be viewed or listened to at a time more convenient to the consumer.

and

Viewing of broadcast material recorded at home and played back within seven days of recording.

Originally Posted by notime

when no movies are made anymore, people will realise it in the end.
They would have to do without and start reading books again maybe?

The Music industry makes more on licensing merchandise and live concerts then they do on cd sales....
the software industry is better protected by law and are lucky to be offering online multiplayer gaming and selling extra levels, etc.

They need to be going after the downloaders. THAT will end torrent sites and the like.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Darkland

I didn't say anything about not letting a friend borrow it, I said making copies and just start handing them out to PEOPLE (read piracy) not hookin a brother up.

And what is this timeshift bullshit... I bought a snickers once, that mean all further snickers are free of charge? Sounds to me just another excuse to justify the actions of a thief.

copyright infringement and theft have nothing to do with each other
your example proves that
you can't timeshift a physical good, you can only timeshift a granted right (right to view)
i don't buy the content, i purchase the right to view it.

This creates both a strange liabilities (i can share the snickers bar, even sell my used portion, but buying a dvd and charging people admission to view it in my home is illegal)

it also creates strange rights (timeshifting, recovery) to balance those strange liabilities.

You can't have it both ways, which is exactly what you are trying to do with this bullshit, analogies.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by mynameisjim

The crux of this whole thing is the misunderstanding that just because a new delivery method has emerged for digital media that somehow it means the public can now determine how and where certain types of media are distributed.

This argument is not taking place in any other industry. Nobody is arguing that you should get cable TV for free, that you should get high speed internet for free, that you should get food or cars for free. Nobody is arguing that you should be able to walk into a movie theater for free.

ding ding ding ding

exactly
even i am not argueing that you should get anything for free.

I am simply arguing that i should not have to buy the same exact right to view TWICE.

[Voodoo]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

ding ding ding ding

exactly
even i am not argueing that you should get anything for free.

I am simply arguing that i should not have to buy the same exact right to view TWICE.

So, what you're saying is, that if you pay for something once, you shouldn't have to pay for it again?

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

copyright infringement and theft have nothing to do with each other

Your point? Whatever name you put on it, it is STILL a crime in the eyes of the law.

Originally Posted by gideongallery

your example proves that
you can't timeshift a physical good, you can only timeshift a granted right (right to view)
i don't buy the content, i purchase the right to view it.

So DVD's aren't physical goods?

[tony286]

I can see you work at home depot and you dont know any better. But to be in the paysite business there is no excuse. Its not right, I don't care if its the shittest movie in the world. When Im not sure about a film, I go to the dollar a day rental machine. Also its hard to bitch someone is taking your shit when your taking others. Its no different. Also going back and forth with Gideon is like pissing in the wind FYI.

[Voodoo]

So if I buy a DVD and someone steals it or it breaks, or melts in the car window, but I kept my receipt...
Under your theory I should be able to just walk into BestBuy and pick up a new copy at no additional cost, because I already bought the right to view it.

Also, if I already own the movie Blade, and my Cable provider plays it on TV, I should get an adjustment on my bill for the movie that I already own, if I can send them a picture of the movie I already own, since it's my right to view it and I already paid for that.

Also, if I buy a membership to a porn site that has chopped up clips of a DVD, and I cancel the membership. I am entitled to the DVD version of it, because I paid for the right to view the movie(s) with my membership.

JUMP INTO THE BBQ SAUCE YOU FUCKING DUNCE!

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Voodoo

So, what you're saying is, that if you pay for something once, you shouldn't have to pay for it again?

nope i am saying because of the special case of copyright that basically says i have no ownership rights to the content, and have only purchased a right to view that content (and basically given the content for free-- to fullfil that right)

Re getting the content to fulfill that right, is the balance to that strange liability.

If you want copyright infringement to be equal to theft i need to have the full ownership rights (right to sell, rent etc what i bought)

you can't have it both ways.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Voodoo

So if I buy a DVD and someone steals it or it breaks, or melts in the car window, but I kept my receipt...
Under your theory I should be able to just walk into BestBuy and pick up a new copy at no additional cost, because I already bought the right to view it.

Also, if I already own the movie Blade, and my Cable provider plays it on TV, I should get an adjustment on my bill for the movie that I already own, if I can send them a picture of the movie I already own, since it's my right to view it and I already paid for that.

Also, if I buy a membership to a porn site that has chopped up clips of a DVD, and I cancel the membership. I am entitled to the DVD version of it, because I paid for the right to view the movie(s) with my membership.

JUMP INTO THE BBQ SAUCE YOU FUCKING DUNCE!

absolutely not
you do however have a right to connect to the torrent and download a replacement copy of the video (recovery).

you keep ignoring the big difference

taking dvd means 1 less dvd
copying dvd means 0 less dvd.

one is an actual loss
one is only a potential loss.

your example cause a actual loss and a potential loss (which is not really a loss because you have already paid for the item)

mine cause a potentail losss (which is not really a loss becaue you have already paid for the item).