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Ethersync

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#1

Why do people think health care is a right?

01-10-2009, 09:28 AM

A lot of people, especially Europeans, feel that everyone is entitled to free health care simply because they are alive. Why? Are we all entitled to free food as well? Maybe a free place to live too?

Where do you draw the line and why?

Logically speaking I think an argument can be made that free food makes more sense than free health care.

I'm actually really interested someone explaining this...

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01-10-2009, 10:04 AM

I guess it is really subjective... One could ask, Do you have a right to live?

I have had this discussion before and all of humankinds problems and hardships can be reduced to one word... GREED!

What does that mean?

The day someone attached a value to something someone wanted or needed, the game was up. Hello hardship. Everything on this planet costs NOTHING. Yet day in and day out we get bled dry, and for what? So some doctor or lawyer or politician, etc. can live a better life. Get the million dollar home and drive their mercedes or BMW.

The world would be a better place if people were more interested in helping each other out instead of finding new ways to make life harder for everyone. But they aren't and that is why the world will never get any better and just continue to rot and fester.

Think how much more technologically advanced we would be if the nonexistent, ridiculous cost were not a factor for innovation.

A monetary system is nothing more that forced slavery.

"The towers are gone now, reduced to bloody rubble, along with all hopes for Peace in Our Time, in the United States or any other country. Make no mistake about it: We are At War now -- with somebody -- and we will stay At War with that mysterious Enemy for the rest of our lives." H.S.T. 09/12/01
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#3

01-10-2009, 10:06 AM

Because they are delusional.

Same as they think there should not be a 'class system' in healthcare, where, if you can afford it. You get better service, and cut in the front of the line.

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#4

01-10-2009, 10:11 AM

Most people need the same amount of food to survive, but the demand for health services can vary a lot.

Some get sick every 10 years, others every 3 months.
Some have poor genes and are prone to terrible diseases.
Then you got accidents etc.

If you compare healthcare to buying food, then you are literally saying that everyone should pay from his own pocket for his treatment.... if treatment goes into hundreds of thousdands, then it's not possible.

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#5

01-10-2009, 10:12 AM

There's no such thing as free health care, health care costs money, and where did the money come from? Taxes! Which means my pocket, looks like I actually paid for the "free health care".
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#6

01-10-2009, 10:14 AM

Because many believe you judge a society by how it cares for its sick and its poor.
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#7

01-10-2009, 10:21 AM

I would rather my taxes fund health care than 2 wars and bailouts for corporations.

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#8

01-10-2009, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Slappin Fish

Because many believe you judge a society by how it cares for its sick and its poor.

Is that your only criteria? During Soviet times that government took care of their sick and poor. They had free health care and no one was homeless or without a job. How do you judge that society?

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#9

01-10-2009, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Ethersync

Is that your only criteria? During Soviet times that government took care of their sick and poor. They had free health care and no one was homeless or without a job. How do you judge that society?

Hey don't shoot the messenger, shoot Gandhi

Although some of those mental institutions in the Ex-USSR tell me the soviets didn't take such good care of its sick...

Last edited by Slappin Fish; 01-10-2009, 10:30 AM.
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#10

01-10-2009, 10:35 AM

Its the price a government has to pay for allowing industry to dump toxins into our environment?
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#11

01-10-2009, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by Slappin Fish

Although some of those mental institutions in the Ex-USSR tell me the soviets didn't take such good care of its sick...

Those horrific conditions exist to this day in many of the new EU member countries that were part of the Soviet Union.

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01-10-2009, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by Quagmire

Its the price a government has to pay for allowing industry to dump toxins into our environment?

You want a government that can't keep your back yard clean from toxins to be in charge of your health care?

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#13

01-10-2009, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by dav3

I would rather my taxes fund health care than 2 wars and bailouts for corporations.

I would rather they spend that money on most anything than what you mention. The problem is our government can not afford any of it.

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#14

01-10-2009, 10:44 AM

It's because of the price.

Anyone of reasonably sound mind and body should be able to earn enough money to provide themselves with food. People who cannot because of mental or physical disability are usually given assistance and nobody complains about that.

Healthcare, unlike other technologies is always going up in price, many times more than the rate of inflation.

We don't expect people to afford their own security services or their own personal fire department because although some people would be able to afford that, most can't and these are deemed necessary services so a common fund pays for police and fire services. Health care is the same way. In the last ten years health care has become less and less affordable to the average person and as a society, access to basic health care is considered a necessity.

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#15

01-10-2009, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Ethersync

I would rather they spend that money on most anything than what you mention. The problem is our government can not afford any of it.

It's easy. The Federal Reserve prints out more money and loans it to the Government with an interest rate. Kinda like how they afforded the bailouts and wars.

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#16

01-10-2009, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by dav3

It's easy. The Federal Reserve prints out more money and loans it to the Government with an interest rate. Kinda like how they afforded the bailouts and wars.

The Fed prints less than what most internet conspiracy films portray.

Do you understand how treasury department is involved in the process?

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#17

01-10-2009, 10:52 AM

Because they think they have the right to take from another to give to themselves.

What is theres is theres and what is yours is theres. The typical socialist thinking.
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#18

01-10-2009, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Ethersync

The Fed prints less than what most internet conspiracy films portray.

Do you understand how treasury department is involved in the process?

Do know how much the fed does print?
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#19

01-10-2009, 10:53 AM

my opinion

Answer varies depending on your opinion and type of personality. I think that everybody must have same health care. We are all humans and if it is not like that, where is difference between animals and people?Who have more money (strength) should survive?

I don't like that, it is selfish and ugly if you ask me. In 21 century, mankind should go in direction where basic things should be available for everyone. planet where people are dying from hunger while on other side of planet other people are laughing and driving expensive cars definitely is not something I like.

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#20

01-10-2009, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by femdomdestiny

Answer varies depending on your opinion and type of personality. I think that everybody must have same health care. We are all humans and if it is not like that, where is difference between animals and people?Who have more money (strength) should survive?

I don't like that, it is selfish and ugly if you ask me. In 21 century, mankind should go in direction where basic things should be available for everyone. planet where people are dying from hunger while on other side of planet other people are laughing and driving expensive cars definitely is not something I like.

Then I am assuming you live in a one room apartment and give the rest of your money to the government and/or charities so people with less than a one room apartment can do better?
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#21

01-10-2009, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Darkland

I guess it is really subjective... One could ask, Do you have a right to live?

I have had this discussion before and all of humankinds problems and hardships can be reduced to one word... GREED!

What does that mean?

The day someone attached a value to something someone wanted or needed, the game was up. Hello hardship. Everything on this planet costs NOTHING. Yet day in and day out we get bled dry, and for what? So some doctor or lawyer or politician, etc. can live a better life. Get the million dollar home and drive their mercedes or BMW.

The world would be a better place if people were more interested in helping each other out instead of finding new ways to make life harder for everyone. But they aren't and that is why the world will never get any better and just continue to rot and fester.

Think how much more technologically advanced we would be if the nonexistent, ridiculous cost were not a factor for innovation.

A monetary system is nothing more that forced slavery.

Originally posted by dav3

I would rather my taxes fund health care than 2 wars and bailouts for corporations.

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#22

01-10-2009, 11:03 AM

I live in a society where no one have to go to sleep hungry, everyone can get the health care they need, everyone can get the education they want if they are smart enough/study hard enough, no one have to be homeless.

We have a very high tax rate one of the highest in the world but in my opinion its worth every cent, I am proud that no one in my country have to beg on the street, freeze in the streets because they are homeless (unless its by choice), die because they can afford medical care or the smartest kid in school can't get the best education because they can not afford it.
I feel privileged to live here and I am happy that I never have to worry about these things no matter what happens and thats why I happily (well mostly) pay my taxes.

I understand that people that do well for themselves have problems with having to pay for others but try asking the people that have worked hard all their lives and lose their home despite having insurance because they get sick how they feel?

Last edited by Michael O; 01-10-2009, 11:05 AM.

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#23

01-10-2009, 11:06 AM

Michael Moore has a great show on this subject.
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#24

01-10-2009, 11:11 AM

My problem with healthcare is not just the cost. It is the fact that they label everything and give you a pill for it. If you have to much energy, you are hyperactive. If you can not sleep one night a week you have insomnia. They hand out pills like damn candy. Healthcare needs to be fixed on many levels.
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#25

01-10-2009, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Ethersync

A lot of people, especially Europeans, feel that everyone is entitled to free health care simply because they are alive. Why? Are we all entitled to free food as well? Maybe a free place to live too?

Where do you draw the line and why?

Logically speaking I think an argument can be made that free food makes more sense than free health care.

I'm actually really interested someone explaining this...

Its not free, in the UK for example - much of the NHS funding comes from National Insurance contributions that are mandatory for every working person and deducted from wages along with normal taxes.

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Darkland

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#26

01-10-2009, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by JaneB

My problem with healthcare is not just the cost. It is the fact that they label everything and give you a pill for it. If you have to much energy, you are hyperactive. If you can not sleep one night a week you have insomnia. They hand out pills like damn candy. Healthcare needs to be fixed on many levels.

That is a big problem for sure. We live in an over-medicated world, but you know what the REAL problems is?

They only treat the SYMPTOMS instead of the CONDITION. Why? So you become a repeat customer. There is no money in treating/curing a condition.

Another big problem I have is that I rarely go to the doctor. The last time I went was in 2002 or 2003. But on the few times I DO go and have to have some test run ohave to go into the hospital for somethin, without fail the insurance company doesn't want to pay out for whatever reason. I mean, what was the point of giving you all that money over the years, THAT I NEVER USED, which could have paid 10 times over the charges they are disputing. It is a scam, just like auto insurance.

Last edited by Darkland; 01-10-2009, 11:19 AM.

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#27

01-10-2009, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by dav3

I would rather my taxes fund health care than 2 wars and bailouts for corporations.
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#28

01-10-2009, 11:40 AM

I'd rather bail out my sick neighboor than sending a fat check to the seo of some insurance company. 28% tax overall isn't that bad considering. I'd hate to worry about medical insurance and the fight to get what you pay for when you actually get sick or have an accident.
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#29

01-10-2009, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Darkland

I guess it is really subjective... One could ask, Do you have a right to live?

I have had this discussion before and all of humankinds problems and hardships can be reduced to one word... GREED!

What does that mean?

The day someone attached a value to something someone wanted or needed, the game was up. Hello hardship. Everything on this planet costs NOTHING. Yet day in and day out we get bled dry, and for what? So some doctor or lawyer or politician, etc. can live a better life. Get the million dollar home and drive their mercedes or BMW.

The world would be a better place if people were more interested in helping each other out instead of finding new ways to make life harder for everyone. But they aren't and that is why the world will never get any better and just continue to rot and fester.

Think how much more technologically advanced we would be if the nonexistent, ridiculous cost were not a factor for innovation.

A monetary system is nothing more that forced slavery.

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#30

01-10-2009, 11:49 AM

In a nutshell.

Some people believe in humanity.

Other people only believe in their personal greed and have a false belief that
they actually work harder than others and thus resent that someone
may get something they didn't "earn".
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#31

01-10-2009, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Slappin Fish

Because many believe you judge a society by how it cares for its sick and its poor.

well said
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#32

01-10-2009, 12:07 PM

I think some of it is that taxes are high for just about any industrialized nation and people want something good in exchange for those taxes. I would rather see my taxes go towards giving people health care than to giving companies money that sent jobs oversees. For example there was a company that took all 3,000 of its manufacturing jobs from the US to Guatemala and government gave them 20 million to help pay for the move. I would rather see that 20 million used on health care.

There are many who believe that if you are forced to pay taxes then you should be allowed to demand certain things from the government in return. Many of those people feel that health care is one of the things you should be given and that it is something every citizen of a country should be given, not something you have to earn.
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#33

01-10-2009, 12:12 PM

Choose only ONE of the following.

A. Welfare, entitlements, socialism, poverty, high taxes, corruption, big government

B. Freedom, vibrant economy, low taxes, individual rights, small government

They are not compatible.

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#34

01-10-2009, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by DaddyHalbucks

Choose only ONE of the following.

A. Welfare, entitlements, socialism, poverty, high taxes, corruption, big government

B. Freedom, vibrant economy, low taxes, individual rights, small government

They are not compatible.

Unfortunately, option B is merely a fantasy. Would be nice though.

"The towers are gone now, reduced to bloody rubble, along with all hopes for Peace in Our Time, in the United States or any other country. Make no mistake about it: We are At War now -- with somebody -- and we will stay At War with that mysterious Enemy for the rest of our lives." H.S.T. 09/12/01
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#35

01-10-2009, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by DaddyHalbucks

Choose only ONE of the following.

A. Welfare, entitlements, socialism, poverty, high taxes, corruption, big government

B. Freedom, vibrant economy, low taxes, individual rights, small government

They are not compatible.

I choose B as the one that we have never had and it's only in your imagination
that it ever existed or ever will exist.
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#36

01-10-2009, 12:20 PM

This thread sure does have a lot of stupid comments.
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#37

01-10-2009, 12:28 PM

It really depends on how you view life. Should we simply let people die because they cannot afford care? How about those that are born with a disability and it is not their fault? Should their life be consider less valuable than those who can afford it?

I see health care as a right, because it is a moral thing to do and ones should not be discrimiated based on their social economic status or disability.
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#38

01-10-2009, 12:46 PM

Solidarity?

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#39

01-10-2009, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by IllTestYourGirls

Because they think they have the right to take from another to give to themselves.

What is theres is theres and what is yours is theres. The typical socialist thinking.

If you live in the USA you're gonna be pissed when you find out about all the other public services that are provided already.

Originally posted by IllTestYourGirls

Then I am assuming you live in a one room apartment and give the rest of your money to the government and/or charities so people with less than a one room apartment can do better?

Living conditions are nothing compared to being horribly ill or dying. You're comparing apples to oranges.
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#40

01-10-2009, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by cess

If you live in the USA you're gonna be pissed when you find out about all the other public services that are provided already.

Living conditions are nothing compared to being horribly ill or dying. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Ive been pissed for a long time

No Im not comparing apples and oranges, I am saying lead by example or people should shut up about how OTHERS should give. If someone thinks another should be forced to give to someone else that person better have already given almost everything they have
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#41

01-10-2009, 01:26 PM

cuz you gotta fight........... for your right..............

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#42

01-10-2009, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Darkland

That is a big problem for sure. We live in an over-medicated world, but you know what the REAL problems is?

They only treat the SYMPTOMS instead of the CONDITION. Why? So you become a repeat customer. There is no money in treating/curing a condition.

Another big problem I have is that I rarely go to the doctor. The last time I went was in 2002 or 2003. But on the few times I DO go and have to have some test run ohave to go into the hospital for somethin, without fail the insurance company doesn't want to pay out for whatever reason. I mean, what was the point of giving you all that money over the years, THAT I NEVER USED, which could have paid 10 times over the charges they are disputing. It is a scam, just like auto insurance.

Very good posting and 100 percent true.
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#43

01-10-2009, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Ethersync

The Fed prints less than what most internet conspiracy films portray.

Do you understand how treasury department is involved in the process?

Here's the deal. The Federal Reserve is a Private corporation owned by other private corporations. They make money off of loaning us money they don't have and never had. Our government issues government bonds to the Federal Reserve. The federal reserve sells those bonds and creates the bonds value in actual currency. They then write checks for 10x the reserve/bond amount to pay for various government services. Those checks are then deposited into another form of the same system (all based on fractional reserve/MT banking.) Those banks then put that money into their reserves and write as much as 10x those amounts. And the process continues. You are correct that they aren't creating actual "money." They are creating "credits" to peoples accounts mostly. Taxes are nothing but the profit to the said bankers. Every tax dollar is gone to them before ONE CENT is spent on public services. Even your local and state governments have two sets of books. One that they show us and one where a large portion of money goes back to the bankers system.

There is actually only somewhere in the neighborhood of $900 billion to 1 trillion of actually dollars floating around. This is why we have 100s of trillions in CDS floating around around the world as a whole. They just keep taking all of the inflationary BS that goes along with the bloated system off to the side basicly and calling it someones debt. This isn't a US problem only. It's a WORLD problem since most of the world is setup the same way. The people who set this system up set it up to make money from nothing, that's it. They never imagined the world we have today where money is transferred around the world shifting economies daily. Macroeconomians and the Keynesian's are way out of date as well. The world economy is BROKE. The problem we now face is those who rule by the current system don't want to give it up because if they do then they are broke.

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#44

01-10-2009, 02:06 PM

Dont know where you get "heath care is free" from as it is not free over here in the UK

Employed people have it deducted from thier wages every week or month and self employed people are responsible for paying it themselves, we also pay for prescriptions and dental care on top of what is deducted from wages

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#45

01-10-2009, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Ethersync

A lot of people, especially Europeans, feel that everyone is entitled to free health care simply because they are alive. Why? Are we all entitled to free food as well? Maybe a free place to live too?

Where do you draw the line and why?

Logically speaking I think an argument can be made that free food makes more sense than free health care.

I'm actually really interested someone explaining this...

This liberal sense of self entitlement is part of the psychological development routine people are in. Some people would argue its part of the evolution of human psychology but I certainly would not. The United states is on the same routine as Europe but 25 years behind. Most people are just sheep. Thats where they are at now. When looked at on a macro level people are as predicable as software.
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#46

01-10-2009, 02:16 PM

The real problem is that the government has gooten so big and bloated because people have been laying their freedom at the feet of the imperial federal government for a hundred years now, hoping to get security in exchange for those sacrificed freedoms.

So now when eople are faced with adversity, be it from a hurricane, a healthcare crisis or whatever they expect government to fix it because they are no longer self reliant but depend on government to manage every aspect of their lives.

The result being that the very act thing they did that was to make them more secure (giving up their own freedom and responsibility) is now the reason they are no longer free or secure.

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#47

01-10-2009, 02:23 PM

Norway?

Originally posted by Michael O

I live in a society where no one have to go to sleep hungry, everyone can get the health care they need, everyone can get the education they want if they are smart enough/study hard enough, no one have to be homeless.

We have a very high tax rate one of the highest in the world but in my opinion its worth every cent, I am proud that no one in my country have to beg on the street, freeze in the streets because they are homeless (unless its by choice), die because they can afford medical care or the smartest kid in school can't get the best education because they can not afford it.
I feel privileged to live here and I am happy that I never have to worry about these things no matter what happens and thats why I happily (well mostly) pay my taxes.

I understand that people that do well for themselves have problems with having to pay for others but try asking the people that have worked hard all their lives and lose their home despite having insurance because they get sick how they feel?

Are you from Norway?

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#48

01-10-2009, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by PXN

It really depends on how you view life. Should we simply let people die because they cannot afford care? How about those that are born with a disability and it is not their fault? Should their life be consider less valuable than those who can afford it?

I see health care as a right, because it is a moral thing to do and ones should not be discrimiated based on their social economic status or disability.

Yes, me to...some guys from Sparta don't think same, probably because they didn't had life in different society.

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2012

So Fucking What

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#49

01-10-2009, 03:02 PM

I don't know ... wait until your grandmother or girlfriend ( someone you care about or you) gets paralyzed from the waist down after getting the shaft for years from crap hmo's ...

you might have a whole different outlook

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chodadog

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#50

01-10-2009, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Barefootsies

Because they are delusional.

Same as they think there should not be a 'class system' in healthcare, where, if you can afford it. You get better service, and cut in the front of the line.

That's a generalisation. I live in Australia and we have public healthcare. I pay for private, though. But at the end of the day, no matter how down and out you are, if you fall over and break your leg you can have it seen to. Or do you think the poor should just suffer and spend years paying off hospital bills?

At the end of the day, most people in Australia are fairly well off. We pay higher taxes than you guys, but we have more social programs designed to help the needy. And yet people still manage to be wealthy and there are plenty of super rich people around. Funny how that works.

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