okay, well.... didn't mean to do that.

But my feelings on it stand. I choose not to use flash for any reason at this particular time because from my experiences with it across a range of different types of sites... I feel it's a waste of time, energy, and money.

Now see, here is a good example of someone looking past their own freaking point of view! Guess what guys... SOMETIMES you're not the only freaking one in the car or looking at a website. SHEESH!

question Mark....

(no pun intended there.... lol)

since you're so pro flash, why not use Director for Shockwave instead? It's got far superior power to Flash.

Now see here ya go taking a soft statement of mine and turning it into some grand position point.

I did not say I was pro Flash or non Flash. I have simply stated where I think it helps with the evolutionary direction of the net and that we use it when it makes sense from a PROFIT standpoint. So that should answer your question...

If there comes a time when I need to develop media content THAT rich to turn profit for my clients, I will up the ante on the design and design tools used to meet the needs. So far we've found some Flash to help conversions pretty well. That's as far as it goes for now...

flash files are generally smaller than director files.. director was developed for multimedia CD's, flash was developed for the web and hence is better for web use. besides the "more powerful" features of director would probably be the same ones people would call a useless waste of time :) - 'cept for the newish shockwave 3d engine which has it's place in games and product show cases.. flash is the standard for web based multimedia no point in using something else unless you've got a very specific need for it.. (a 3d game for instance)

okay, then let me rephrase so as not to mistakenly twist anything you've said, but rather simply ask a question...

if Flash is good, and I agree than for certain elements it can be.... then wouldn't Shockwave logically be better? Isn't the point of using Flash to create a richer experience for the end user in order to boost sales by touching their senses a little deeper than standard graphics can do? And if that's the case, then why wouldn't Shockwave be an even BETTER tool for accomplishing even greater results?

You can't argue that Flash is superior for achieving a greater experience and then discount Shockwave as being TOO rich. Is there such a thing as being TOO rich in this ever evolving environment? Shockwave is not new. In fact it existed before Flash. Flash is the vastly trimmed down Outlook Express version of Shockwave.

hmmm.... Macromedia disagrees:

why not create a virtual 3D environment with controllable players that the end user can manipulate into various sex acts with a joystick? Wouldn't that be the ULTIMATE in end user experience?

You could do it with Shockwave you know....

But I CAN argue just that. Some salt is good on my rice... makes the rice tastier than without. Too much salt and I'd rather go back to the plain rice. So it would seem to me that designers overusing Flash had driven you back to plain white rice. =]

And I'll reiterate... My design decisions for client sites are based on profit results and solely profit results. LUMYR stands for, Let Us Make You Rich... not Let Us Make You something so cutting edge it only impresses your mom. =]

We've seen no data nor received any positive testing for anything other than minor Flash elements. On the LUMYR site itself I used a complete Flash design and then asked if I should go with an HTML version only too... that's how this whole conversation got started. This because I spent all my time collecting data for paysites and other adult projects I neglected to get data on a webmaster site. =] Seems the 55 to 32 result gave me that answer or at least the beginning of it though.

Probably would be good, probably would get a good user response. Question is would the increased profit from sign ups and retention for having said plug-in on your site make up for the development cost?

Probably something that would best come from a third party plug in who stands to make recurring income on it and more easily recoup that investment cost.

nothing in that sales pitch "disagreed" with what i said

?

but how can you say that? Do you HAVE any data collected from interactive Shockwave porn site attempts? Are you saying that it wouldn't be more profitable? Or that you have no idea.

nevermind.... that line tells me you have no data on a Shockwave porn site attempt.

Might wanna consider trying it..... could be cutting edge $$$ making stuff. :winkwink:

technically.... but you insinuated that Flash is for the web and Shockwave is not. And in that you'd be wrong.

Let me ask you a question if you don't mind, Amputate...


If you ran a paysite and saw people talking about Flash "bricks" like us and seeing many sites using them would you give them a try to see if they make more profit for you? Despite your personal preference would you try different things and compare the results?

Do you wanna be right or do you wanna be rich?

Fuck 5 minute long intros....
Fuck not being able to use my 'right click' like it was designed....
Fuck trying to find the 'music off' button....
FUCK FLASH

probably the #1 reason to use flash over director is the plugin base. hard to argue with flash's total dominance.

That's correct. I don't get to try everything I'd like to try simply for the reason in the above post. Alot of clients like to be right, not rich. =] So you generally have to see a proliferation of something to a high enough degree that I can convince a client to give it a try when we go through the variable elements of the design.

I said flash was developed for the web and director was developed for CD's.. very different.. i've known many colleagues using director for webuse over the years.. but flash was always smaller and better to download over the internet.. not to mention everyone has the plugin so it REALLY IS BETTER for web use currently even though director now streams just as well..

i have always though that once everyone has broadband director will be the better solution... it is more powerful than flash.. and when file size isn't an issue...
the thing here is that at that point we don't know whether they'll have merged into one product or not.

hard to answer that though.... because I can't deny that I find 99.9% of flash to be extremely annoying. And if I find it annoying, odds are that the surfer of my fictional paysite would too.... so, I'd almost have to say no, I wouldn't try it. But that'd be based on the fact that I understand flash alot better than the average surfer does too. If I was clueless to the world of Flash, I might be tempted to try it out.... so in that sense, the answer would be yes. But more likely than not, I would go into with the frame of mind that it is a novelty.... not a sure fire way to increase profit.

No matter how you slice it.... it's still overcooked eye candy. And the chances of it driving your surfer away are probably better than the chances of it being the factor that pushes him to finally pull his credit card out.

here is a perfect example... (and I'm not picking on Platinum Bucks, it's just an example)

http://www.platinumbucks.com/main.html

This is a site that is NOT entirely made of Flash... yet there is flash in it.

Do you find this to be somehow compelling? Is the spinning, whirling crap in the center there making you want to join the program?

I find it distracting and annoying. Much like I find a midi file embedded into a page to be distracting and annoying.

Maybe that's just me.... who knows.

and what about the spinning, whirling flash banners?
Do they call out to you to click them? They're not working on me. Maybe I have some sort of disorder or something, but I think the whole flash thing is way overrated.

Totally agree. Fuck all the non-sense. Just keep it simple. Flash is all about trying to impress and it doesn't It's annoying when you want to see a site and you can't even when you have the latest labtop and using fiber optic connection.

I SKIP FLASH INTRO

I would bank that most flash sites have a worse signup ratio than nice html designed sites. You almost feel compelled to keep looking at the flash...maybe it'll say something important. When usually it's just a bunch of slogans one after another and neat graphics. It's a waste of time and effort for the designer and the surfer.

I've done over 2600 sites including three current Max Cash sites of which one runs an animation "brick." Different sites call for different uses and presentations. SOmetimes the Flash works, sometimes not. You don't think sites as visited as anything MAx Cash does would have Flash up long if it hurt conversion do you? My whole point guys... well... I'll make it in th enext post since I need to quote Amputate...

My point is... 9 times out of 10, what YOU (meaning anyone, not just you Amputate) think works is not the BEST answer for converting sales. That's why we created the variable element technology in our designs. I have lots of opinions that I don't understand how any "sane" person could disagree with but the fact is they do. Money talks guys... our opinions are worth no more than a guess...

the best use of flash is to integrate it so that it isn't readily identifiable as being flash for the PURPOSE of it being flash... which is what the platinum bucks site and others like it say to me as soon as I see them. As soon as I go there, I am washed over with "Oh fuck... another stinking piece of flash crap", and I just wanna close it before I even see anything else..... so why is it there....

I'll tell you why..... that whirling spinning piece of flash is sitting dead center on the page for the sole purpose of showing you just how cool they are because they have a piece of flash on their site. And that's the wrong way to use flash.

the flash should be quietly enhancing the site.... not the other way around. Your site shouldn't be just a showcased frame for the flash. Unless you're Macromedia and you're actually selling the Flash tool itself. (yes, theirs is pretty obnoxious as well)

Quote:

Originally posted by Amputate Your Head well.... I doubt I'll ever be convinced that Flash is a revolution or anything even remotely close.... it's primarily eye-candy. And it can be nice when used properly as such.... but there isn't anything out there that REQUIRES flash to accomplish its needs. I think backend programming/databasing type interactivity is far more important than flash will ever be. So, that's my assessment.... eye candy. Nice in moderation, but all too often badly overused. I got into Flash when it first appeared, and I made some amazing shit with it too.... but then I got bored with the new toy and put it away in 1999.

Amp, look at this:

www.ego7.com

Flash does a lot more than create "spinning gadgets". The entire website is essentially a program interface. Imagine that. Keep in mind, the Big Boys are heading towards leased Operating Systems and Productivity Software. If EGO7 was a porn site, it would be killing 'em dead. And you cannot reproduce that effect with HTML no matter how hard you try.

1. It took over my screen. Reason enough for me to close it out immediately and never go back.

2. Alien environment. I now have to sit and learn how to operate this thing because it's unlike anything I'm used to. Not many surfers are willing to do that.

3. The first thing I clicked on at random, (since I'm not familiar with their alien environment) locked up the whole works. Had to Taskman my way out of it

Knocking 'em dead huh? Who...? The owners in lost revenue?

One great example of something being done with Flash that made the owner tons of money...

http://www.joecartoon.com

Try that withouth Flash on the net....

well, if it's working for him, then great... I personally don't visit such sites. I prefer information oriented type sites like MSNBC. I don't have time for stupid cartoons and crap like that... I'm glad it's making someone money. I'll never be a part of it though.

more power to ya Mark... but that's not a direction I ever care to go in.

popups galore on that site too mark.

I like the jokes but I haven't gone in a long time. The type of humor is alot like Howard Stern where it's fun at first but then the shock value wears off. But I know the guy does extremely well with it.

I just wanted to raise it up as an example of a Flash dependant site that I knew made good profit.

So now I must ask the next question for my board compatriot, Amp... when did you get so serious dude? MSNBC for fun!? Heehee. I gotta buy you a drink in Vegas and maybe sit you in front of a Bugs Bunny marathon or something. =]

Quote:

Originally posted by Amputate Your Head 1. It took over my screen. Reason enough for me to close it out immediately and never go back. 2. Alien environment. I now have to sit and learn how to operate this thing because it's unlike anything I'm used to. Not many surfers are willing to do that. 3. The first thing I clicked on at random, (since I'm not familiar with their alien environment) locked up the whole works. Had to Taskman my way out of it Knocking 'em dead huh? Who...? The owners in lost revenue?

I think it's been too long since you were a regular surfer. It's not an Alien environment unless you are running on MS-DOS or something...and if that's the case, then there isn't a website around that wouldn't be alien to you. It's an remote application interface. See icon, click icon, content opens. Fully integrated with a seamless, invisible backend.

It's also not full screen. Didn't you notice the taskbar was still available at the bottom?

As for your lockup...I dunno. It has never locked me up.

There will never be a way to convince you, Amp, nor would I ever try. You are obviously very successful with what you do and how you do it... but to say that this can never work for the online Adult industry might be a little short-sighted.

when I want fun I go to the beach and relax with a cooler of brew or grab the board and catch a wave. Or if all else fails, turn on the tv.

when I'm in front of the computer I want information. I know I screw off in GFY alot, but that's pretty much the extent of my computer 'fun'. I don't play video games, I don't hang out in irc chat rooms, I don't search for cartoons or funny AOL virus hoaxes. I'm either working or I'm looking for information.... been that way for a long time.

Okay, you're redeemed... you surf. I was thinking you might have a permanent tie thing going on! Heehee.... Wait I see your location is Hawaii...

It all makes sense now! WTF are you doing on a computer at all??? Get out there and enjoy the waves dude!

actually dude thats a really bad example to be showing people.. i hate when something takes over my whole fucking screen.. as soon as a surfer hit it they would alt f4.. plus it froze.. so i had a whole grey screen full of nothing.. i've seen the site before and it's nice enough.. but im not actually promoting the use of full flash sites for porn myself at the moment, you can get the same impact without the "full flash site? time to press the back button" reaction.. and that platinum bucks thing that amp linked to is pretty full on - like someones cracked open their copy of swish and gone to town..

But I don't use that system here.... I don't keep icons on my desktop. Yet they would have me do so. I don't like that.

go back in there.... when it first opens up, in the center, click on where it says "Pic Wall' or something like that, and tell me it doesn't lock up. It's done it to me twice.

it may work for adult... but it's going to have to evolve a helluva lot farther than the current methods of throwing some fancy shit around in circles for a few minutes with an option to turn off the sound... lol :winkwink:

:thumbsup Yep.

flash is slow even on broadband and annoying

I go to enough flash sites and I dunno how to get stuff up.. fancy flying menus that u can't click on then you can't click back and you can't do "open link in new window" on flash links and music thats annoying as well

some of them are ok but I still prefer HTML

flash games an animations are fun though

...you got to give this one to Amputate, better than that the whole fucking site was a bust for me because I block pop ups at a browser level, it wasn't until I had opened it in Internet Explorer that it even began to understand the concept.

Anybody here thinks an adult site like that would work well? Then pay me what it's worth and I'll build it. Fuck most of the graphics look like pre-existing modules from flashkit or whatever, and you have to give Macromedia some credit because that back-end stuff with MX is now a lot fucking simpler. Gone are the days when a copy of generator alone was a license to print money.

There is some slick stuff in Flash, right click on a flash six .swf and see what is under settings, control the client computer's microphone and camera etc.. Maybe there is even potential in using flash as a new movie format, especially if you can somehow code some simple DRM functions into it.

If you can tell it's a flash site then it's failed, but it's still better than DHTML.

flash done right is far leaner that it's HTML counterpart, and is very fast

case in point:
www.paysitedesign.com/flash.html

satin teens is 100% done in flash .. and it loads very fast ... as does the swatch ad ...

problem is ... 90% of flash designers do not use flash as a streaming tool ... one of it's best functions ... they still try to preload everything, which makes the flash piece slow and the viewer will opt out of it :(

thanks for the stats Mark ... they are quite consistant with stats we have collected ... :thumbsup :thumbsup

Booyah on the streaming comment! Very true.

Helpful note to ya too... check that link you posted at a very high screen rez - the image of the guy with the white mask gets broken.

Thanks for sharing the stat conf too... =]