Not sure if this will work but it's something to think about.

To keep a Torrent site it needs advertising to cover it's cost and to make it worth while putting up.

We as an industry off the advertisers on the Torrent sites a deal they can't refuse, a rate that makes it better to advertise with us than the Torrent sites. The money flow to Torrent sites will diminish and they will stop opening or even close.

Of course this will only apply to adult Torrent sites and advertisers that will spend money with us.

Again you are attacking the flow of cash to the people stealing the traffic and that's what hurts them.

Because herding cats is a tricky business.

Great thread. Bump for hope!

I know getting these guys to think long term and as one is a hard task.

I know why it will not work. Because the moment a sponsor tries to cut their payouts to pay for it and put more money in their pocket long term they will switch to someone who pays them 50% and $100 Sundays. Even if it's AFF. :mad:

and that is why your hair brained solutions will never work,
you need to find additional revenue streams that don't currently exist
either to replace the lost income or to pay for this untopian world you want to create

product placement
live interaction are the way to go.

creating companies which will lose money so they can screw the people who are screwing you over (while they make a profit) is never going to work because

ding ding ding they are making a profit screwing you over.

so they can afford to spend you into an early grave.

:glugglug

That sounds pretty cool. Except tubes don't make money from signups to paysites. They make that pre-paid spot from a dating site. None of that has anything to do with the real porn business. It's just a traffic issue.

As far as giving the surfer exactly what they want...tube site owners have NO idea who their traffic is. You don't work traffic. But I have for over 10 years. And I KNOW what all that traffic is. It's a LOT of teenage boys jerking off. We used to have them on our TGP's. But now they are all over on the tubes. Can't blame them for that.

But for tube site owners to claim they know what surfers want...that's ridiculous. A tube site is a script. Plain and simple. No human touch from the owner. Tubes give teenagers a place to jerk off. Damn, I only wish that there had been such a thing when I was a teenager.

And for the traffic SELLING part of your equation...that traffic is complete shit when it comes to productivity. What it is useful for is for people to buy it to pump up their numbers so they can sell advertising on their sites. Plain and simple.

I'd take ONE unique hit from my tgp's, or AL4A, or WorldSex, or The Hun, or Joggs, Boobster, or any REAL free site over 100,000 blindlinked tube hits any day of the week if you want to talk productivity...or in laymans terms: the chance that it's a person who INTENDED to come to my site from your site and might actually spend money.

Those blindlinked tube site hits aren't gonna be anything but a pissed off surfer who can't wait to click back out and go back to your tube to watch some more free porn.

Tube owners are smart, I'm not attacking you. And your traffic is valuable to use to pump up numbers and get a good alexa rating. It has it's place. But I used to get paid a nice BIG sum for some prepaid spots when our TGP's were huge. But even that substantial amount of money was small compared to the money we make selling memberships to paysites. I'm guessing that you are supplementing that pre-paid spot by selling the cheap traffic.

That's smart. Here's a tip from an old school guy: Get paid in cash for those pre-paid spots. Can't tell you how many times we would be at shows and have envelopes full of cash handed to us for a years text link spot. That shit is sweet!

No they can't spend us into an early grave and you saying this shows how little you know. Actually we could spend them into an early grave. They have to have those advertisers to pay their costs, their profit margin is slim and by reducing the effectiveness of their advertising they will become a drain on the sites supporting them. It might only take a 10% swing, but a 10% swing can be 100% of the profit. Or 50%. It's definitely not 10% of their profit.

An additional revenue stream, like what? I think this industry has gone about as far as it can finding additional revenue streams. Easier said than done. But we are listening if you have any ideas.

Product placement. Such as? There are more companies who would sue us rather than pay us to use their products in our sites. Maybe the Pill, vibrator or lube companies will fund us all. In my experience of talking to these people at trade shows they're not even interested in giving away free samples for us to use in scenes. So maybe you know more than I do.

Live interaction. Yes and spot on. It would not take much for a site to do live shoots or have live webcam girls inside the site. It could be a cooperation between the paysite and the cam site or it could be the paysite doing it themselves. From what people tell me cam sites don't upsell to cam sites as well as they do to other paysites, others might know different, so maybe a girl online for free to the members would be a good idea. It would need 4 girls a day to make it 24 hours. But it represents another cost to the sponsor and today the margins are so tight many can't afford.

Unless they reduce the affiliates payout, long term the affiliates will earn more, or spend less on support or promoting themselves. But we know how this game works. Sponsors that screw webmasters can make it all good by having 60% rev share, $100 sign up weekends or even 90% rev share on a target no one will reach. Or a sponsor who puts on a big party, banners everywhere or skins a board will get more than a sponsor who is taking the fight to the Tubes and asking affiliates to stand alongside him.

WELCOME TO THE WORLD WE MADE.

Spot on. I've had traffic from these guys and it sucks. Blind links that promise more of the same are surfers who will immediately go back to where they came from. And this is the ones who click the first time to find it's a link to a paysite. The ones with adverts convert fairly well once the surfer has clicked on a link he knows is to a paysite. But how many free tube views does it take for one to come over and buy something. The traffic might be vast, but it's crap and this is their Achilles heel.

We can wait for it to all to turn around and prey the costs will outstrip the returns or we can make them unprofitable. You have a good idea to produce good and unique content then protect it. Sadly few can follow you or will and if they all did it would not be long before some techie guy will break the codes. Or the Tube sites will be off to the local porn DVD store for content. I like what you're doing and support it, but it's not a universal answer for all of us.

the live cam sponsors and dating sponsors make money by selling live interaction while getting traffic from tube sites that give your content away for free.
so they screw you over to make money

your solution of a free chat service to cut screw them COST you money, because you would have to pay the girls to chat for free. The arguement that some how it will result in so much lost business for the chat sites that they will stop advertising is just plain stupid.


paul last time we had this discussion i pointed out you did not understand q-ratio and that why you could not get product placement.

Let me put it bluntly since you don't seem to get it when i am nice about

You didn't get product placement because you are a moron

you were selling porn to guys, yet you tried to get a product placement for products that appeal to women.

the advertising value is zero (or almost zero), hense no one is willing to give you shit.

If you understood the concept of a q-ratio you would understand the value of product placement and would have approached sponsors who would benefit for your target audience
or
written a script that targeted a market that those sponsors cared about.

which is exactly my point as long as it is a loss centre for you your screwed, you have to find a way to make money from the live interaction, so if you give away the chat for free to retain your members you have to make enough money from the extra long retention to keep the payout the same. If that is not possible then you lose because the chat sponsors are turning a profit by charging for the chatting rights.

but if the term lenght of payment was truely greater long term, that you could keep the persignup rates just as high and just make your money on the back end. but it does work like that as you so clearly pointed out. You need to find ways to subsidize the cost of production so that producing content becomes a virtually zero cost action (product placement, process monitization) and building in an live interaction into your content (voting, time sensitivity, fuck the members) so that there is an incentive to be a member of the site.

Good and valid points (in your point of view) and i appreciate your opinion, because your not one of those blind "tubes-killed-entire-family"-people.

I think you dont run a tube, so you probably cant speak from expirience, nor can i speak from a 10years tgp background or something similliar, but i can give you some clear facts on tubes..

1. Tube Surfers dont buy porn memberships - half true, they dont come to a tube site to download some video or see some specific solo girl in action. They request video-on-demand. We tried to sell them porn memberships in the beginning which even worked, but the result wasn´t to great. Ratios like 1:1500 and higher..
Now we kicked out all paysite banners (start hating) and replaced them with our VOD site. Ratio went down to an average of 1:600 (start hating again gfy peeps)
Now get your calculator out and try to get an overview on the masses. Instead of sending out a couple of K to each sponsor per day, we send xx.xxx uniques to ONE sponsor per day. Now do the math..

2. Tube Traffic is not productive! - Totally wrong, sorry but on our "legal" tube we have an average prod of 172%, which isnt too bad for skimmed traffic in my point of view. Once again i have no clue if tgp/mgp prod is higher or what. For me, it does the trick.

3. Pre paid spots - We dont like colored paper. :winkwink:

4. Legal Tube / Illegal Tube - The people that say its a already lost battle to fight with legal tubes against illegal ones clearly have no clue. Launch a TGP today and see where you end up today. Then launch a tube site and see what makes you more money.

5. Banking of Tube Traffic - Thats the easiest part of all.. you have a WAY more options then on a regular MGP/TGP because you can grow a member database. Cooperate with a dating company, grab their api, include it into your registration process and each member generates you $3 just for signing up to your site. College people, unemployed people, broke people, who ever signs up doesnt fill out any CC information.
Now you have an existing member database.. you can bank of their emails, wait till they convert to your vod site, sell their emails, spam them what ever. Its up to you, but the options to make money of a tube are clearly higher (in my point of view) then on a TGP / MGP. Theres a million of other ways to make money of your tube..

6. Porn is not dead at all - If people can afford to pay $xx.xxx hosting costs and other expenses per month to keep their sites alive, then it cant be dead.
And its not just the pre-paid deal that keeps those sites alive.. :winkwink:


OHHH shit...#50!!!!