Read my point of view here :

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showthread.php?t=865694

Two major flaws in your thinking. Tubes are not free, they're paid for by Cams and Dating sites. So if people stop spending on paysites this will drive more to Tubes where they will not spend on the Cams and Dating sites. Traffic does not equal sign ups. Which some are starting to discover.

As for protecting content with DRM. Please stop making me laugh. So I run a Tube site and by some miracle every paysite goes DRM tomorrow. So the day after tomorrow I go to the local sex shop and buy 100 DVDs at $5 each and digitize them in house. This is in the extremely unlikely possibility of even 10% going to DRM. The problem is with most sites it does not matter if you go to DRM. The next site does not and there is nothing to distinguish between the two sites. Your content is the same. Just a different girl on a different sofa.

shooting "fresh/exciting/new" scenes in & of itself is not gonna fix the issue either because at the end of the day it's still pixels and 1's and 0's (that costs 2x or 3x more money to produce) that will be up on tubes/torrents right next to the run of the mill shit

Tubes have already moved on to the new revenue stream.

Dating + Cams = Money...

Porn is now dying of a tubal-cancer.

:2 cents: Quoted for truth.

A 1080i HD-quality shot of some dogshit is still dogshit. In fact, the fact that it's in HD highlights its shitty qualities even more.

some real good points people keep em coming, im hoping more people who run pay sites like myself chime in as well

A few things about the paysite model being 10 yrs old so then its done .The retail model be it amazon, homedepot or joe the tailor is 100's of years old. Basic business principles dont change. Remember during the internet boom, the old ways dont matter any more its the internet new rules what happened? it went back to tried and true business principles.
Something interesting happened today, my wife got an email from a guy who was interested in joining but had gotten fucked so hard by some site. He wanted to join by postal money order and he needed assurances that we weren't going to bill him for extra things. This is a big problem.

People will pay whatever you charge, but they want to feel secure with the deal/promise.
You got an email of one of the VERY few surfers that actually asks the big question.
These rare emails/questions are the most interesting ones. Inside intel on surfer psychology :2 cents:

SHHHHHHHHH! :winkwink:

gimme about 45 mins
have to knock the bottom out of something first
i'll be back

http://www.qwipster.net/t2.jpg

more input pls

It was more like he found a bunch of charges on his cc statement that he didnt remember signing up for. It freaked him out so much, now he wants to use snail mail to sign up for sites.

A lot of excellent and very insightful posts so far in the thread.

One thing that many people in the adult industry do wrong is they become too reliant on their adult revenues as their sole income. Not all...but some people. We've kept our production company afloat over the years partially because both the wife and I have maintained other employment outside the adult industry. We offset the up and down adult trends with steady 9-to-5 jobs - which takes the worry out of economic downturns and trends for us.

During economic slumps, we just keep plugging away at increasing our production buffer (we have enough unpublished content to continue updating for a full year). We can afford to be experimental when it comes to the photography...trying out new ideas to see what works. Too many other producers get into that 'formulated rut' and churn out basically the same thing over and over and over.

So my point is - those who don't put all their proverbial eggs in one basket are the ones who'll weather the economic storms. It helps greatly to love doing what we do - we'd still be producing original content even if we were barely breaking even.

There's always tomorrow.

i really don't think hd space and b/w speed is an issue
why?

because in 2002 they were selling pc's with 200gb drives, hell. even 100gb is a lot of porn to save.

Sales were fine back then. Conversions have steadily dropped over the years little by little

but there were always new people coming online everyone was happy,

overall sales still increased each year for me since I started in 99

this year will be the first year for me where that is not the case

now there are a jillion more paysites than their used to be

i remember when there were just a few wet tshirt spring break sites

me and a few others pretty much owned the niche at one time

not the case any more

we are splitting the pie up more and more and more and more......

new surfers are coming on board as well, but the novelty of this whole interweb porn thing is not like it used to be

the wow factor was greater back then and has slowly diminished to where it's commonplace

surfers are smarter

not only are there shitloads of paysites competing against each other

but now the paysites are losing sales to illegal tubes and torrents, and the like

customers are smarter now, not so easily entertained, and expect much more

when you combine this with our so called bad economy, whether there is one or not, the media has people thinking there is

just like orson wells had people convinced the Martians had landed

during the last debates were my worst days in a long time

people are tightening their belts, whether they need to or not, i know i am even trying too

as far as more people with broadband, IMO that should actually help new sales

the faster you can go the more places you can visit

high speed internet might affect retention somewhat, but not new sales

between the economy and so much competition, (legal and illegal) i believe that is the problem

if everyone's hard drive suddenly shrank to 100GB tonight, I don't think it would change anything.

but what the fuck do i know

cheers,
BV

this is not true from what i have observed

i have a future brother in law that has a huge dvd collection, maybe he even has a 1000 dvds, not porn but reg flicks

he is also probably one of net flix biggest customers on top of that, he has dvds coming in the mail almost every day

people that have collections like that are junkies

they can't get enough :2 cents:

I think porn is different, if you have a collection its the stuff you like to wack off too. So you are watching for 10 mins maybe. There are only so many times you can watch the godfather, I have over 250 movies and never watch any more I rent all the time.

maybe, maybe not
people get satisfaction from regular movies also
just in a different way
you can not jack it to the same pic or video forever, it gets old
who still strokes it to 80's porn? not many i bet
people always are searching for new material

I jerked off to dirty debs 1 til I wore out the vhs tape lol

Um, not to spoil the party, but you guys do know most industries use surveys and focus groups to find out what customers want. But I know, your money and time would be better spent buying sigs or skinning GFY than actually finding out what the customer wants.

Has anyone thought about offering surfers a free download if they complete a simple survey? Then all this bullshit about why people don't buy anymore can be put to rest once and for all. Heck, I'll even supply the clip if someone sets up the survey.

sure you can, i did that 5 years ago the first time, to see what kind of bonus feeds they wanted

also i am constantly pushing for info/facts from members that email me about something and usually i slip in a question or 2 on them

some of them answer and like to converse and let you know what they like, after a while you get the picture

That's good to hear. I try to keep in touch with members as much as possible. Actually, the billing issue comes up more than anything. People being scared to join.

Why is no one with a merhant account complaining about sales?

Great business thread. I had a long shoot day so I am goign to be relatively brief, even though this thread has made me think about a lot of related issues. I agree with a lot of what has been said so far. I especially believe that the pay per download model will become more common as more surfers shy away from recurring subscription billing. A lot of consumers prefer to pay a fair price to download and own each scene or movie and I think it is smart to give them that option.

The surfers are indeed getting jaded and harder to please. But those who can tap into the demand for particular niches and those who are able to deliver unique content with a certain director's style or flair will still be able to make sales. A lot of the more generic pay sites are going to find it much harder going.

I do a lot of market research talking to fans and consumers via email and on some surfer forums and I am trying to give them what they want on DVD and online with pay sites and downloadable videos.

Some of the large internet porn companies who made the easy money back in the 90s and early 2000s seem to be at a loss now on how to continue their pay site success in this more jaded time. My opinion is that just like in the DVD market, it is going to take a real pornographer- someone who loves porn- to be successful nowadays. If there isn't someone running a porn company and making decisions and/or someone who is filming for the company who is the kind of person who would pull their pants down and jack off to porn, then they are working at a serious disadvantage on the creative side against those who do.

I got into the porn biz in 1991 because I love it. I started filming porn for VHS & tv broadcast with Hi-8mm and Beta SP cameras and I am going to continue through high definition and 3D holograms or whatever evolution it goes through because I am a pornographer, and there will always be customers who are willing to pay for unique content that they just can't get everywhere else.

If you have porn like Party Hardcore that is unique different and well shot you can protect it. Then when the surfer who likes it sees it he has to join the site to view it.

If you have porn of a blond on a sofa getting shafted and faking it you can't protect it effectively. Because if the surfer see it, likes it, wants more and you have deleted every scene you produced, the surfer can watch any of the other 10,000 videos of a blond on a sofa getting shafted, then the surfer does not need you. Don't complain about the number you know what I mean.

This industry for ten years built the number of sites, DVDs, affiliates, traffic, shops and lost the focus on the buyer. Now the buyer does not see any reason to pay because very little is worth paying for.

BV has a good point.
Where and who are the new surfers coming online? Probably not places we are selling to as well as we did.

This industry spends millions talking to people with traffic they have little clue what it requires. Too many computer guys trying to sell a product they don't know to a person they don't understand.
I will also give a scene to anyone who wants to run an independent survey. I talk to members all the time, the main problem is they want more of the girls from 6 years ago. I am constantly being asked if I have more of girls who put everything into a scene. Even people who saw the scene on a Tube site ask for more like it.

Most content buyers only want too know how cheap and how many scenes can they get for the dollar. So they can spend money sending traffic to sites the traffic is losing interest in buying from. So send more traffic. This has been happening for years.

morning bump

I do not think paysite subscription model is flawed - yes you sell your entire content base for $30-40, but it has already paid off. Whatever you get for it is pure profit. And if customer rebills, he pays about the same price for your updates as he would at VOD sites (if you update weekly).

Also providing a huge base of movies helps getting repeated customers - they'll rejoin not only to download fresh stuff, but also to download what they missed previously, or already deleted but want to view that movie again. It is unlikely customer is going to keep all of your stuff at his HD for a very long time - so he'll use your server as an online storage place where he can redownload from.

Sure we all want more money for our stuff, but let's be reasonable. If average paying customer spends $60/month on porn it won't turn $200 overnight if we all switch to VOD. Subscription based model is well balanced in terms of customers/producers/affiliates interests and I'm pretty sure will serve as our industry's backbone for a long time to come. Maybe even forever.

But getting more use out of VOD model will surely help to diversify income sources and get more money from those customers who prefer buying exact match, or do not like recurring or both. It will not magically increase your sales by 200-300%, but 20-30% is possible if marketed properly.

A good business thread, am i on the right forum?? :)

why do so many people act like it is one thing? How about a little bit of everything. All this shit adds up and for some reason people list ten things and ask which one is the reason for the problems LOL,
I have had members email my girls and say they are sorry but they have to cancel even though they love the site. When they write back and ask why the answer is "I found a site called redtube" or "I feel stupid paying for porn when it is free" Sure that same tube site might send some sales too but where the fuck do you think they would be if there was no tube sites? Do you think they would sell their computers and grow a garden? fuck no they would be on any other site while we try to get them to join. How come that is so hard for some people to understand, It is fact. Put a poll in your members area and just ask them. Or after they cancel write them a thank you letter and tell them 1 out of every 10 people get a free membership if they will take two minutes and tell how we could have improved the site so they would have stayed and you will get more people that say "make the price FREE" There is probably 50 other things that mess with the bottom line too.

tubes and torrent sites hands down.

holy shit where did you come from?? I have been doing this for 3 years but try to tell people who are happy with what they make something and since they have 7 cars and I have 3 then I must not know what the hell I am talking about.
The first thing I tell the girls is find out WHY they joined the site and WHY they left the site and every single change we make will be based on those two answers. Fuck all this new shit. Oh I have to get flash.... I ran polls and 1% of the members wanted flash LOL yet people were on GFY saying it was why members would not join. Ask 100 customers what flash is and I bet most will tell you some red dude in a comic book hahhaha. And after that I will be the first to admit I know very little compared to most but I sure do get a lot out of what I do. You might as well ask the mailman why it hurts when you pee or the guy in the deli when is the best time to water your lawn. If you wanna know a good fart joke come to GFY and if you wanna know what will keep people on your sites and what will get them to join in the first place how about you ask the people that joined the fucking site. They will not bite you. In fact they are quite nice.

This is just the perfect time for sponsors to turn on the shave-o-meter and blame it on our economic status, tubes and torrents. :2 cents:

too sad that you really think that. It is so easy to protect yourself and test programs that if you really think that it is your own fault for sending them traffic. That is just an excuse lazy webmasters use :2 cents:

[QUOTE=Brian837;14982055why do so many people act like it is one thing? How about a little bit of everything. All this shit adds up and for some reason people list ten things and ask which one is the reason for the problems LOL[/QUOTE]

I don't think people are trying to say it's necessarily a single thing. I think people are smart enough (I would HOPE) to realize it's the combination of numerous factors. Some more so than others which is why you see people saying it's "tube sites", "it's the economy", "it's torrents", etc.

Now that doesn't make much sense to me. By that logic, any new technology or method of delivery that becomes wildly popular and it's what the consumer wants, you're willing to forgo having it? People may not know what Flash is, but if you told them that's the technology behind the videos they watch on YouTube, MySpace, etc, then they would be like "oh..that!".

As many people have stated, you need to stay ahead of the curve or at least catch it to stay competitive be it with technology, the content itself, or both.

hmmmm...perhaps, but to me issue with storing files is largely a non issue now with the price of portable hard drives, flash drives, etc being so cheap.

The issue with the subscription model, as it is now, is it has spoiled the consumer. The porn consumer expects to pay a low monthly fee and have access to tons of content. What other industry continues to do this? You join a gym for a monthly fee, but if you want access to a personal trainer or something else one-on-one, that's extra money.

You join NetFlix for a monthly fee, but they limit the number of movies you can have and you don't own the movie, You still have to return it or buy it.

You go to an all you can eat buffet, but not everything is on the menu. The buffet only includes selected items. Want something not included, it's extra.

You join Rhapsody (sorry, hate itunes), you pay a monthly fee to stream as much music as you want. But as soon as I want to take the music somewhere I have to pay for it.

I'm sorry, but you don't see Capital Records (for example) having their entire catalog available for a monthly fee and allow customers do whatever they want with the music.

Think about this, AC/DC is STILL making money from Back in Black which was released over 20 years ago. With a subscription model instead of making $1 per sale (just picking a number) they only make .00001 cents.

The currrent subscription model dilutes your return on your investment.

I agree to an extent. It seems to me this assumption is based on having that content still available within a subscription site. I would imagine the majority of consumers would think "gee, I pay $5 for this one video or pay $20 and get that video and hundreds of others".

You could hide the fact the video is available in the subscription site, but since you're using the VOD as an upsell to your membership site (I assume), the person will likely join the membership site instead. Now you just made pennies on that video instead of dollars.

I'm not necessarily advocating the elimination of the current subscription model. I'm suggesting it needs to be modified and used in conjuction with the VOD model. For example, for the subscription site you have set amount of content available at any given time. Old content is pulled off the subscription site and put on the VOD site. Doing this would allow you to extend the "life" of the content while getting a higher return on your investment.

I know I've focused on the subscription model so don't think I believe that is the sole issue with what's going on within the industry. I don't. It's just one of many.

Happy Halloween everyone!!!

first sit and think why they need their own merchant account and then you will have the answer to your question.

I have my own merchant account for my pay per view site and am not implying that your own merchant account = shady but figure it out.

I think we as tech savy folks underestimate this. Becuase really i am not that tech savy i have found tubes and like them just like a surfer would. They make it so easy. If you can use youtube, you can use a tube. I think we might actually see torrents get hurt by tubes. The higher quality might not be worth the hassle in the long run for some people. I have been in members areas of some of the biggest and best paysites and for me it does come close to a tube site.

I don't know about that....A lot of people can't watch a scene more than once or twice, myself included...They always will need something new and fresh and as long as you keep bringing it, you'll eat...

I know that no matter what, I'll keep bringing new hoes...These hoes are the reason my youngest kid is watching Go Diego Go and eating an ice cream sandwich....A hoe had to get a surfer horny in order for that to happen......PUSSY paid for that ice cream sandwich.

you are 100% right when it comes to regular porn, but with niche porn the surfer likes something very specific and they will watch the same clip over and over.

This is not what I think but rather fact as I see on my pay per view site people coming back reordering the same spanking clip or other fetish clip many times (no aff program on that guys so dont think im spamming)

I do not think it did. If you have quality original stuff, if only 20 vids, you'll do just fine in today's market, both sales are rebills wise. Surfers are not going to go to another site only because it promised more. They expect to get off and that's it. If your 20 vids get the job done, you'll do just fine both sales and rebills wise.

Other industries are the whole different story. Sure you need to pay extra for your personal gym trainer, but how is it any different from paying extra for personal one-on-one cam show with the model you like? And gym is not charging you extra for every device you exercise with.

As to the music and movie industries, last time I heard their sales are declining. Doesn't that sound like a flawed business model?

And I do not think piracy is the main reason - the main reason is that they do not seem to grasp that in today's market you cannot charge $1 per song or $10 per video, if you sell them online. There's only so much you can sqeeze from a customer. If your content library is worth $2 million in retail price, that doen't mean you have many buyers at that price. Average Joe will still spend $50-100 he can afford to spend on entertaiment.

I'm pretty sure big studios would get millions of $20 recurring customers if they allowed access to their entire content libraries. But they're still chasing every single buck they can possibly sqeeze from a customer, while loosing billions in between.

VOD only sounds as if it might get you much more money than subscription based model. In some cases it really will, but in most cases it will not. While there're surely junkies who'll spend thousands on your stuff through the VOD option, average Joe will not.

VOD is a niche payment option - very good option actually that might increase your bottomline in managed properly. But still niche option, for very specific audience. But it is mainstream in mainstream, that's why I think they're fucked even more than we are.

Great idea, thanks for sharing. I think it might work, at least for us.

Really? Show me a successful site that only has 20 videos available at any given moment that doesn't give you access to bonus sites. Believe me, I'd love to get away with that! You may be able to start with 20 videos, but you better plan on weekly updates at a minimum to keep people around.

Remember when Napster got shut down? Everyone was whining and complaining because they had gotten spoiled by having unlimited and free access to all the music they wanted. Yeah, that is more about piracy. I'm just using that as an example of a spoiled consumer base. And that's what we have with porn. Not only are we selling content for pennies, we're giving away sooooooooo much of it just trying to get people to become a member. Now there's this HUGE pile of FREE porn out there and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger (yet another issue).

Exactly, why not make premium content an extra cost? Instead sites continue to put more and more and more content, add more features, give access to more bonus sites, all while keeping the monthly membership the same. Oh wait....maybe because the porn customer is completely spoiled and if the price goes up $5 a month they quit :winkwink:

Not true. Warner Brothers claims a loss of $17 million loss in the 3rd quarter, BUT Digital revenue GAINED 29%, accounting for 15% of total sales compared to 11% last year.

CD sales may be down, but digital music is on the rise

As for movies, box office revenue has risen from $7.5 billion in 2000 to $9.66 billion in 2007.

Ok..so we could rattle of stats till our faces turned blue :1orglaugh

Still, as I said, this is, to me, part of the larger problem.

Thanks! Liking the healthy debate. Hopefully it will generate ideas and solutions.

dire predictions from some people...
http://www.hostchecker.info/image5.jpg

Great post EB, lots of identification of the problems with the current market / economy. Now let's figure out a few fixes ;)
WG

I was going to mention weekly updates but forgot. Sure, you're absolutely right, at least weekly updates are a must if you're going to stay around and not get burned within 2-3 months.

What I was going to say is that even 20 good videos is enough for starter, even today with all of them huge megasites around and even worse tubes. "Spoiled consumers" are not going to be a problem for you starting with your new site. They never will be a problem, actually, except maybe for sites that specifically market amount of content they have. But for sites that market specific types of content, there's no difference in sales between 20 vids+weekly updates or 2000vids + weekly updates sites. 20 vids sites would often sell even better, if they're new production with fresh stuff.

We're not selling it for pennies. $30-40 is not that cheap at all. You can regret you're not getting $5 you want for every video you sell, and even more so when you have huge 2000+ content library you're selling for the same $30-40, but again, be reasonable. Customers do not have unlimited budgets, they're not going to pay you $10K for your entire collection. Even $100-200 will be a tough nut to shell.

Well that's normal, as time goes by customers want more for the same amount of money. Average computer is still worth about $1000, but modern computers are 100x more powerful than those that were sold 20 years ago. Does that mean manufactures should charge $100K for them? I do not think so.

Loss is the keyword. They gained online, but not enough to make up for their losses elsewhere. Why haven't they made enough from their online sales? Obviously because their business model is flawed. If they offered their entire library plus updates for $20-30/month, and opened up an affiliate program, they'd have 10 million members in no time - and that's 2 billion of found money in just one year. And they still have box office, DVD/CD sales, TV rights etc etc. Demand is there, they just do not see it, or keep dreaming about charging customers with crazy amount of money they never going to pay.

How do you figure? Say you have 20 videos. Your membership is $20/mo. You just sold that video for $1. The more videos you have, the less their individual value.

I do hear what you're saying about consumers not having unlimited budgets and I get that. But, why should they get sooooooo much for such a small monthly fee?

LOL..I'm not saying they should pay that. Good point though. But, the cost of production remains the same, hence the little difference in price for a better product. BUT, if I want more memory, a faster processor, a better graphics card, the price goes up. What I"m trying to say, is at a certain point extra, bleeding edge, benefits should cost more. Overtime the cost of those additional benefits will drop and you make them part of the monthly fee, but they would be replaced by the next wave of benefits. Just like a computer or a car.

Loss...not necessarily. How about profit margin? As soon as you implement a subscription model your profit margin decreases and continues to decrease with every new song/movie you add. Sure you hope to offset that by selling more subscriptions, but at some point that growth is going to level off or become minimal. Then what? In the long run the subscription model's profitability declines. I definitely don't see their business model as flawed. Just different and in my opinion, more profitable.

Regardless, the subscription model is probably always going to be the primary model in this industry unless there's some huge issue that causes a change. And I certainly don't think the movie/music industry will ever embrace a subscription model. Who knows!:winkwink:

ah...I think we've just about beat this into a pulp. I would love to hear some other opinions, but it's time for me to get my drink on and watch the Halloween shit show!

Have a fun and safe Halloween

I don't understand how you can protect the well shot video any more than the blond getting shafted video. They are both just videos. Just because a surfer "appreciates" a scene more does not mean he respects it, and is not going to share it or tube it or torrent it.

Boring run of the mill content sucks, but it is just a small portion of the big problem

You are right for the most part, but I actually have engaged some surfers who are fans of my lesbian movies on certain fan forums including some obscure ones where they trade plenty of videos back and forth and, because of my involvement, the moderator has willfully prevented the group from putting their favorite videos of mine up on rapidshare or torrents at least amongst that group. I actually turned some of them into customers by taking a proactive approach to customer relations.

Interesting. Can't say I've ever thought about people's bigger hard drives meaning less need to buy more porn...

Tony, I get those emails all the time...minus the "gotten fucked so hard by some site" part. I get at least one or two emails per week wanting to know if they can join by money order.

I always tell them "No" that is not an option. And I would suggest you do the same thing.

I can see it now...you sell a membership to some 12 year old via money order and then it's off to jail. Don't do it.

And by the way, this is a good thread. I'm sorry to hear that the industry is in such bad shape. I personally went ahead and bit the bullet several months back and the Claudia-Marie members area is all encrypted streaming.

Had a small percentage of people bitch about it (probably the same fucking assholes who were uploading our shit to every torrent and tube on the web). Haven't had a single new scene show up anywhere since we went to encrypted streaming. There are still a few of the old scenes that were originally released on .wmv floating about. But removeyourcontent.com keeps that down pretty well.

Soooo...I just sold my home (that was completely paid for) in South Carolina and bought a new million dollar home here in Las Vegas. I work hard, I play hard, and I make a lot of money. Yeah, the economy sucks. But the comment that torrents have been around a while isn't exactly true.

They've been around a couple of years. Tubes blew up a little over a year ago. It all coincided with declining sales. As an affiliate for over 10 years with hundreds of companies...I see the sales dropping fast for the generic "mega-sites"

You can't keep shooting those same 20 girls fucking those same 10 guys all from LA Direct and make sales when those same people are all over the tube sites in every possible scenario and position.

If I want to see Sara Jay fuck a couple of black guys (and I do), I don't have to pay to see it. Same with all the other girls.

My feeling is that content is going to have to be protected. I saw my sales going down on Claudia-Marie.Com...not much, but ANY decline scares the hell out of me. And when I put up a scene on a Tuesday, then find it all over the tubes and torrents by Wednesday afternoon (along with the rest of the members area), I knew something had to be done. And I did it.

It was scary at first. I thought all my members would get pissed and quit when they couldn't download. But I went for it anyway. And after a couple of white knuckle weeks...it turned around.

Now I only wish that all the programs I push as an affiliate on my free sites would do the same thing so I could start making sales as an affiliate again too.

Hi Robbie,

What solution did you use for encrypted streaming? Also, has it affected your rebills, and/or amount of repeated customers?

I keep reading this about Tubes and I keep saying the same thing.

If your site does not compete with Tubes that's your fault.

Tubes are not going to go away. You need to learn to compete with them. If your porn and site at $1 a day is not competing with a Tube site you need to make sure it does and stop worrying about Tubes or dreaming they will go away.

Great post. Yes we have all the experts on what members want and with all this fantastic knowledge we are losing out to Tube sites. :upsidedow

We have experts on how to get people to a site, how to direct them and some have some knowledge on how to convert them. Very few have a clue about porn and what the members want. If they do they are one of the few sites making money.

GFY is a good place for fart jokes. :1orglaugh :1orglaugh