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Peacemaker

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#1

Dear (US) Amercians...

10-20-2008, 07:35 AM

I am from europe and curious. Why is bad, if you call someone a socialist in your country?

I dont get it. Why is this word so bad, and whats bad about a socialistic democracy? We, here in germany, have a huge Party (Socialist Democratic Party) which is forming our goverment along with another party.
And you realy cant compare us to the UDSSR (yes, i have read some youtube comments and people are realy scared of this), nor to the former GDR. We can still vote, we can travel outside our country, we have a free speech etc.

I am just curious and want to understand.

Thanks

edit: Dear (US) Americans.. Sorry about that

Last edited by Peacemaker; 10-20-2008, 07:37 AM.

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Barefootsies

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#2

10-20-2008, 07:37 AM

Dear fine sire,

A lot of the US citizens who are outraged at the term socialist, or promotion of socialist ideals have no fucking clue what it means. They just know Fox News says it's bad.

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#3

10-20-2008, 07:49 AM

I was a political science minor in College, and I"m very politically active.... I know what socialism is, and the reason why Americans don't want it is that this is a very different culture to that of the EU. You are used to VERY strong central governments that have kept all power to themselves, including the ability to rebel, etc.... (see the 9th amendment)

The US was founded on the principle that the PEOPLE had the power, and that THEY allowed the government to have certain rights, under strict limits, not the other way around. Also, as this country is MUCH larger than any of the EU countries, our system was set up to give much more power to the state and local governments, rather than a central federal government (see the 10the amendment.)

Another aspect of American culture is that since we did not have hundreds of years of rule by royalty, our culture had that attitude that unless we voted for a specific law restricting something, then nobody could tell us not to do it. This is in sharp contrast to the EU tradition of broadly written "writs" which allowed local judges to make all sorts of capricious personal decisions about what was legal or not.

All of this added up to a culture which tends to embrace personal responsibility and personal reliance, without interference from a Government body. I personally think that this attitude of being free to build ones own life, without being overly burdened by government taking too much of the results of your own labours, or making arbitrary decisions about what you need in order to have a business (comparitive to the EU), is one of the reasons why the US is the world superpower.

I just typed this fast in the middle of a busy day, so please excuse typos and syntax problems.

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#4

10-20-2008, 07:59 AM

Also please note that I've lived outside the US for a lot of my life, in the UK, South Africa, Holland Hong Kong, and France, and I've found that Europeans are MUCH more trusting of the government running various businesses "on behalf" of the people, as well as controlling much more of what people make, as far as personal income.

Americans are not nearly as trusting of either the Governments ability or motives, to run more than they already do.

I know that I"M not!!

Please note that the constitution is a document that is basically the PEOPLE telling the government what the PEOPLE will allow the government to do, not the government telling the people what THEY can do.

This is ingrained in our culture.

.

Last edited by sperbonzo; 10-20-2008, 08:02 AM.

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Peacemaker

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10-20-2008, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by sperbonzo

I was a political science minor in College, and I"m very politically active.... I know what socialism is, and the reason why Americans don't want it is that this is a very different culture to that of the EU. You are used to VERY strong central governments that have kept all power to themselves, including the ability to rebel, etc.... (see the 9th amendment)

The US was founded on the principle that the PEOPLE had the power, and that THEY allowed the government to have certain rights, under strict limits, not the other way around. Also, as this country is MUCH larger than any of the EU countries, our system was set up to give much more power to the state and local governments, rather than a central federal government (see the 10the amendment.)

Another aspect of American culture is that since we did not have hundreds of years of rule by royalty, our culture had that attitude that unless we voted for a specific law restricting something, then nobody could tell us not to do it. This is in sharp contrast to the EU tradition of broadly written "writs" which allowed local judges to make all sorts of capricious personal decisions about what was legal or not.

All of this added up to a culture which tends to embrace personal responsibility and personal reliance, without interference from a Government body. I personally think that this attitude of being free to build ones own life, without being overly burdened by government taking too much of the results of your own labours, or making arbitrary decisions about what you need in order to have a business (comparitive to the EU), is one of the reasons why the US is the world superpower.

I just typed this fast in the middle of a busy day, so please excuse typos and syntax problems.

Thanks for your response.

"The US was founded on the principle that the PEOPLE had the power"
Isnt it more like: "who has the most money" has the power? And, now i refering to the Tax changes Obama wants to do (thats where i read this comments about "socialist"), should it not be like, that 95% have more of this "power" then 5% of the US citizens? I dont understand why someone call him a socialist (which is bad in your country), althou, he does not earn that $250.000 a year and belongs to the 95% (majority) and the chances are very low he will ever get $250k/year. And, even with this tax change, its easier for Mr.X to get to the $250k/year faster.

So, right now, your goverment (i think) is taking more control (nationalize) of your banks (which is socialistic) due the financial crise. So bush and the goverment are socialists too? Hmm .. but nobody realy seems to care about that matter of fact. hmmm. strange to me

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#6

10-20-2008, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Peacemaker

Thanks for your response.

"The US was founded on the principle that the PEOPLE had the power"
Isnt it more like: "who has the most money" has the power? And, now i refering to the Tax changes Obama wants to do (thats where i read this comments about "socialist"), should it not be like, that 95% have more of this "power" then 5% of the US citizens? I dont understand why someone call him a socialist (which is bad in your country), althou, he does not earn that $250.000 a year and belongs to the 95% (majority) and the chances are very low he will ever get $250k/year. And, even with this tax change, its easier for Mr.X to get to the $250k/year faster.

So, right now, your goverment (i think) is taking more control (nationalize) of your banks (which is socialistic) due the financial crise. So bush and the goverment are socialists too? Hmm .. but nobody realy seems to care about that matter of fact. hmmm. strange to me

I have a HUGE problem with anyone, including Bush, doing what is happening right now with the "bailout".

Anyway, I thought that your question was a sincere request for information, rather then being merely an opening for you to inject your political rant in favor of Obama...

Sorry I took the time out of my day to answer you in depth...

.

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#7

10-20-2008, 08:12 AM

Free speech? Ah ah, do you even live in Germany?

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#8

10-20-2008, 08:13 AM

I think the problem lies in the people mistaking socialism for communism...

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10-20-2008, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by sperbonzo

I have a HUGE problem with anyone, including Bush, doing what is happening right now with the "bailout".

Anyway, I thought that your question was a sincere request for information, rather then being merely an opening for you to inject your political rant in favor of Obama...

Sorry I took the time out of my day to answer you in depth...

.

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#10

10-20-2008, 08:14 AM

Plus the correct term is social democracy not socialist democracy.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

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10-20-2008, 08:15 AM

maybe because they are capitalists, which is the exact opposite

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10-20-2008, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by sperbonzo

I have a HUGE problem with anyone, including Bush, doing what is happening right now with the "bailout".

Anyway, I thought that your question was a sincere request for information, rather then being merely an opening for you to inject your political rant in favor of Obama...

Sorry I took the time out of my day to answer you in depth...

.

ofcourse it was a request of information. thats why i asked. i dont want to go deeper into this obama voting. i just wanted to know why its bad if you call someone a socialist in your country. and i am thankful you answered.

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#13

10-20-2008, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by xmas13

Plus the correct term is social democracy not socialist democracy.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

i am sorry that i didnt know how to transtlate "Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands" correctly. Maybe that shows you i am from germany ;)

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#14

10-20-2008, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by Hazlewood

maybe because they are capitalists, which is the exact opposite

Cant be. There is not only "black and white". Or do you want to say germany isnt capitalistic?

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#15

10-20-2008, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by Barefootsies

Dear fine sire,

A lot of the US citizens who are outraged at the term socialist, or promotion of socialist ideals have no fucking clue what it means. They just know Fox News says it's bad.

Regards,

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#16

10-20-2008, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by sperbonzo

The US was founded on the principle that the PEOPLE had the power, and that THEY allowed the government to have certain rights, under strict limits, not the other way around.

It's too bad that it's not that way anymore anyway

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#17

10-20-2008, 08:21 AM

Money goes where it feels comfortable.

Finance 101.

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#18

10-20-2008, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Peacemaker

Thanks for your response.

"The US was founded on the principle that the PEOPLE had the power"
Isnt it more like: "who has the most money" has the power?

Your handle is misleading, as was your initial post. You come here under the guise of wanting to learn, when the reality is that you just wanted to argue and display your ignorance.
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#19

10-20-2008, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by Peacemaker

I am from europe and curious. Why is bad, if you call someone a socialist in your country?

I dont get it. Why is this word so bad, and whats bad about a socialistic democracy? We, here in germany, have a huge Party (Socialist Democratic Party) which is forming our goverment along with another party.
And you realy cant compare us to the UDSSR (yes, i have read some youtube comments and people are realy scared of this), nor to the former GDR. We can still vote, we can travel outside our country, we have a free speech etc.

I am just curious and want to understand.

Thanks

edit: Dear (US) Americans.. Sorry about that

It's the Right Wing .. aka "Republicans" whom really have no clue about what Democratic socialism means. The GOP scares them into thinking it's like communism. Mix that with the just out right selfishness of many right wingers whom think because they got their's well fuck anyone else. Ironically enough these are the very one's whom claim to be Christians. (so much for the Bible and the idea of if you have two fish give one to someone whom has none)

What they fail to realise is our entire public school system is based on socialism. While it might not be the best school system in this day and age but that's mainly because it's under funded not because the system doesn't work.

Last edited by crockett; 10-20-2008, 08:30 AM.

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#20

10-20-2008, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by baddog

Your handle is misleading, as was your initial post. You come here under the guise of wanting to learn, when the reality is that you just wanted to argue and display your ignorance.

Absolutly not true. I dont want to argue. I am asking questions to go deeper and to understand. I have questions, so i have to ask. How can i learn to understand, if i dont ask?

Last edited by Peacemaker; 10-20-2008, 08:27 AM.

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10-20-2008, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by sperbonzo

Anyway, I thought that your question was a sincere request for information, rather then being merely an opening for you to inject your political rant in favor of Obama...

Your argument is purely based on what the US has become. The capitalism that has driven the US has developed the East and the West to great wealth, leaving a vast, agricultural void in between. Your arguments for why socialism was never founded are flawed, since if the US was a socialist state, then central government would have much less power, overseeing mainly staple national industries, like transport, health care, agriculture, leaving local needs down to individual state 'governments'. People would take much more interest in their local elections since these goverments or councils would be the ones controlling their region, and growth would be much more uniform, not east/west. Ivy league universites would not exist and education would be probably spread between local/national governance.

But yeah, the idea of someone working their ass off to develop an amazingly successful company to benefit the good of the people rather than lining his bank account is, well, unthinkable.

Greed and self-worth are not compatible with a socialistic way of life.

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#22

10-20-2008, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by Peacemaker

i am sorry that i didnt know how to transtlate "Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands" correctly. Maybe that shows you i am from germany ;)

Which explains a lot. You are used to having your hand held at every step, and having a government so overbearing you can not use a chainsaw unless properly certified.
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#23

10-20-2008, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by Barefootsies

Dear fine sire,

A lot of the US citizens who are outraged at the term socialist, or promotion of socialist ideals have no fucking clue what it means. They just know Fox News says it's bad.

Regards,

Well said
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#24

10-20-2008, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Peacemaker

Absolutly not true. I dont want to argue. I am asking questions to go deeper and to understand. I have questions, so i have to ask. How can i lean, if i dont ask?

bullshit. comments like "Isnt it more like: "who has the most money" has the power?" shows you are trying to debate, not learn.
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#25

10-20-2008, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by sperbonzo

I was a political science minor in College, and I"m very politically active.... I know what socialism is, and the reason why Americans don't want it is that this is a very different culture to that of the EU. You are used to VERY strong central governments that have kept all power to themselves, including the ability to rebel, etc.... (see the 9th amendment)

The US was founded on the principle that the PEOPLE had the power, and that THEY allowed the government to have certain rights, under strict limits, not the other way around. Also, as this country is MUCH larger than any of the EU countries, our system was set up to give much more power to the state and local governments, rather than a central federal government (see the 10the amendment.)

Lololololololololololololololol at the idea that you guys have more freedom and a "weaker central government" than Europe!!

You have been brain washed, clearly!!

lolololololololololollollolololollololololollololo lo

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#26

10-20-2008, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by baddog

Which explains a lot. You are used to having your hand held at every step, and having a government so overbearing you can not use a chainsaw unless properly certified.

"you can not use a chainsaw unless properly certified"
lol. at this point atleast, you are right. but why should i care or is it a bad thing? i am glad that i dont use a chainsaw and because it was not properly build i loose a hand

about the rest. you might be right. some of us realy need that "helping hand" form our goverment. but you cant say that to all germans.

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#27

10-20-2008, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by Peacemaker

I am from europe and curious. Why is bad, if you call someone a socialist in your country?

I dont get it. Why is this word so bad, and whats bad about a socialistic democracy? We, here in germany, have a huge Party (Socialist Democratic Party) which is forming our goverment along with another party.
And you realy cant compare us to the UDSSR (yes, i have read some youtube comments and people are realy scared of this), nor to the former GDR. We can still vote, we can travel outside our country, we have a free speech etc.

I am just curious and want to understand.

Thanks

edit: Dear (US) Americans.. Sorry about that

question: were not the 'nazis' socialist?
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#28

10-20-2008, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by baddog

bullshit. comments like "Isnt it more like: "who has the most money" has the power?" shows you are trying to debate, not learn.

so, someone asking a question is debating. i am asking questions to understand. i dont know how is it with you. maybe you get one answer and never asked deeper. then its okay and i understand.. i am glad that i am thinking and go fruther and deeper.

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#29

10-20-2008, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by bm bradley

question: were not the 'nazis' socialist?

i think you cant compare our "SPD" (social democratic party germany) with the NSDAP (nazis). Not at all. But i dont want to explain why. Please do some researches

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#30

10-20-2008, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by bm bradley

question: were not the 'nazis' socialist?

They were also human. You're human. As am I.
Does that make us also nazis?

Your comparison is so very broad that you could consider any person in a position of power as being similar to a nazi.

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#31

10-20-2008, 08:40 AM

In US politics the proper way to view it is that it's uttered to foster fear. We call it fear mongering for short.

Like the topics of abortion, flag burning, gay marriage and stem-cell research. Socialist and socialism is trotted out before the audience to take a bow and do a turn on tiptoed foot in hopes of scaring an old person to vote against your opponent. A quick check of the polls will tell them to do it again, or lurch erratically to the next tactic. It's easier to demonize your opponent by instilling fear in the ignorant masses than it is to promote your own fitness and readiness to lead the nation.

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#32

10-20-2008, 08:43 AM

Socialism puts the society as a whole first, capitalism puts the companies first.

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#33

10-20-2008, 08:43 AM

The US citizen no longer has any power. We may as well be socialist now too.
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#34

10-20-2008, 08:45 AM

In the US, the government buying out all the top banks, investment firms and other financial institutions is just good business.
The government spending money on saving children's lives, however, is socialism of the most evil proportions and simply an attempt at removing every individual's freedom and enslaving a nation.

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#35

10-20-2008, 08:47 AM

The Pledge Of Allegiance was written by a socialist.

Socialism is bad mmmkay? ;-)
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#36

10-20-2008, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by bm bradley

question: were not the 'nazis' socialist?

hmm okay i think its better to say something about this.... nazi = NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party) was a national socialstic party. And you remember correctly when you say they were very very right-winged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa..._Workers_Party
more here. and you cant compare that to the socialism nowadays in germany with the SPD (social democratic party germany)

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#37

10-20-2008, 09:02 AM

socialist is bad in america until the poor want public schools, or when republicans want bridges to nowhere, and when it comes to war.

socialism is cool to republicans unless you bring up taxng their millions, otherwise,this country is as socialist as any.

i love watching republicans cheer on iraq, while at the same time saying "no taxes" McCain says he wants us in Iraq for 100 years. At 10bil a month, how much is that? You think he is paying or the tax payer? LOL

dumbass, where do you think the money for the war comes from?

People who own homes pay for the public schools everyone uses, is this not socialist? LOL

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#38

10-20-2008, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by StuartD

In the US, the government buying out all the top banks, investment firms and other financial institutions is just good business.
The government spending money on saving children's lives, however, is socialism of the most evil proportions and simply an attempt at removing every individual's freedom and enslaving a nation.

The weird thing to me is this is common sense. But half of the people out there disagree with this statement. I don't understand where the commoner gets their knowledge from aside from nowhere.
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#39

10-20-2008, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by baddog

Which explains a lot. You are used to having your hand held at every step, and having a government so overbearing you can not use a chainsaw unless properly certified.

Says the man who has a government that won't let him play poker online.
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#40

10-20-2008, 09:42 AM

It's not so much that Americans fear complete socialism, as that they understand that socialism is a crappy system.

The constitution was created to keep the central government as small as possible with the belief that people should live in total freedom. This means that through individual accountability and self reliance, the people are not dependents of the government.

This system, is what created the only true world super power (in less than 250 years) and in the process added more wealth and prosperity to the rest of the world through trade than any other system at any given time in the history. In addition, the capitalist system in America has created the most significant technological & medical advances the world has ever seen - many of which have directly affected and improved the lives of more people around the world than any other nation. This system has also created the best Health Care in the world. Health care rich with technology that is exported around the world.

America through capitalism, quickly became the largest economy by many fold and from that enormous economy sends more food and financial aide to the world than any other Nation and more than nearly all Nations combined. Capitalism, is what built that.

Capitalism, is what attracts millions of immigrants every year. Capitalism is what gives any person in this country the ability to go from the lowest rung to the highest rung of society in one generation.

When people talk about Obama being a 'Socialist' its because he is. He has demonstrated to be the most liberal, and most socialist leaning politician in America. His comments the other day proved that and if he looses in November that will be the defining reason.

Capitalism is what created the "American Dream" and except for those too lazy to pursue it, the majority of the people, including those not yet here, despise any attempt to change or alter their ability to go after that dream.

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BradM

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#41

10-20-2008, 09:44 AM

Whiplashdug,
85% of americans thought the bailout was a bad idea, yet the government passed it.

If that's not proof your constitution means SHIT then I don't know what is.
Don't kid yourself, the government controls everything and the people have no say.
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The Duck

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#42

10-20-2008, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by Barefootsies

Dear fine sire,

A lot of the US citizens who are outraged at the term socialist, or promotion of socialist ideals have no fucking clue what it means. They just know Fox News says it's bad.

Regards,

You said it.

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stickyfingerz

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#43

10-20-2008, 09:52 AM
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Peacemaker

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#44

10-20-2008, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by WhiplashDug

It's not so much that Americans fear complete socialism, as that they understand that socialism is a crappy system.

The constitution was created to keep the central government as small as possible with the belief that people should live in total freedom. This means that through individual accountability and self reliance, the people are not dependents of the government.

This system, is what created the only true world super power (in less than 250 years) and in the process added more wealth and prosperity to the rest of the world through trade than any other system at any given time in the history. In addition, the capitalist system in America has created the most significant technological & medical advances the world has ever seen - many of which have directly affected and improved the lives of more people around the world than any other nation. This system has also created the best Health Care in the world. Health care rich with technology that is exported around the world.

America through capitalism, quickly became the largest economy by many fold and from that enormous economy sends more food and financial aide to the world than any other Nation and more than nearly all Nations combined. Capitalism, is what built that.

Capitalism, is what attracts millions of immigrants every year. Capitalism is what gives any person in this country the ability to go from the lowest rung to the highest rung of society in one generation.

When people talk about Obama being a 'Socialist' its because he is. He has demonstrated to be the most liberal, and most socialist leaning politician in America. His comments the other day proved that and if he looses in November that will be the defining reason.

Capitalism is what created the "American Dream" and except for those too lazy to pursue it, the majority of the people, including those not yet here, despise any attempt to change or alter their ability to go after that dream.

That was realy a good post and answer. Thank you for that. It helped me to understand it a bit more.

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2012

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#45

10-20-2008, 09:58 AM

Only the very rich can benefit from socialism here, have you heard of the bailout? Other then that you are a homo and "commy" anti american hitler youth and should be destroyed for mentioning it...

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WhiplashDug

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#46

10-20-2008, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by BradM

Whiplashdug,
85% of americans thought the bailout was a bad idea, yet the government passed it.

If that's not proof your constitution means SHIT then I don't know what is.
Don't kid yourself, the government controls everything and the people have no say.

Yes. I am one of those 85%. And I will work as hard as I can to get the elected officials in my districts who supported it voted out of office when the time comes to keep my promises to each of them prior to its passing. That is my form of control. The bailout is a ridiculous thing and a product of bad politicians not a bad system.

Was a graphics master for Lensman @ Adult.com but now... I can't tell ya cause it aint top secret.
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TheDoc

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#47

10-20-2008, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by WhiplashDug

It's not so much that Americans fear complete socialism, as that they understand that socialism is a crappy system.

The constitution was created to keep the central government as small as possible with the belief that people should live in total freedom. This means that through individual accountability and self reliance, the people are not dependents of the government.

This system, is what created the only true world super power (in less than 250 years) and in the process added more wealth and prosperity to the rest of the world through trade than any other system at any given time in the history. In addition, the capitalist system in America has created the most significant technological & medical advances the world has ever seen - many of which have directly affected and improved the lives of more people around the world than any other nation. This system has also created the best Health Care in the world. Health care rich with technology that is exported around the world.

America through capitalism, quickly became the largest economy by many fold and from that enormous economy sends more food and financial aide to the world than any other Nation and more than nearly all Nations combined. Capitalism, is what built that.

Capitalism, is what attracts millions of immigrants every year. Capitalism is what gives any person in this country the ability to go from the lowest rung to the highest rung of society in one generation.

When people talk about Obama being a 'Socialist' its because he is. He has demonstrated to be the most liberal, and most socialist leaning politician in America. His comments the other day proved that and if he looses in November that will be the defining reason.

Capitalism is what created the "American Dream" and except for those too lazy to pursue it, the majority of the people, including those not yet here, despise any attempt to change or alter their ability to go after that dream.

People saying Obama is Socialist is stupid... We already are socialist, we are already fully controlled by the U.S. FED Gov. We are also a very Capitalist Country, and you can have a mixture of Both.

The fed controls every aspect of 'everything' through funding. From Schools (no child left behind isn't state funded), the 100's of social services from poor to new moms, to veterans. Social medial for anyone poor, broke, working for the gov, military, state, or any social service, already - paid by you. They Control every aspect of your Company, all money you make, how much you 'can' make, what type of business you can do and who you can do it with (depending on the business)...

When you ONLY have 5% that make it super rich, with the amount of poor, dieing, hungry, adults and children..... Capitalism failed.. Greed Won!

You only have ONE control one real freedom in this Country. The option to buy a plane ticket, leave the country and never return, losing your citizenship (only 1 of two nations to do this) and then finally not having to pay taxes anymore..

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marcjacob

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#48

10-20-2008, 10:11 AM

I dont see why you have to be socialist or capitalist. Without capitalism you have no tax money to spend on socialist policy. I dont believe in the old style socialism where by government does everything for you, but creating a strong safety net to look after those who cant look after themselves, has to be a good thing.

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br4sco

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#49

10-20-2008, 10:23 AM

there really is no true way to have a perfect system in my eyes. But its clear to see that america's media is all fucked up, when one whole race of people are being made to look like demons and anything they say to another person is a hate crime, but yet, its ok for them to call them crackers in their songs , on tv and what ever the hell else they want, then i say something needs to be done and changed.

just my
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Slappin Fish

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#50

10-20-2008, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by WhiplashDug

Yes. I am one of those 85%. And I will work as hard as I can to get the elected officials in my districts who supported it voted out of office when the time comes to keep my promises to each of them prior to its passing. That is my form of control. The bailout is a ridiculous thing and a product of bad politicians not a bad system.

With Republicans and Democrats monopolizing political power your form of control is as effective as trying to repel flies with a pile of shit.
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