ow, my M1 hurts

Gimmick infringement!!!

get used to it... partisan politics aside, we now live in a world where billions of retards are connected to each other, can organize and can rally around falsehoods, lies, conspiracy theories and rhetoric and the "facts" become more and more irrelevant.

its game over man.

i was having a conversation a long time ago on another board where people were so happy about the fact that everyone could be so connected to information (within the context of stock investing) and i kept saying that connecting idiots together and making their voice increasingly louder is going to backfire with increasing frequency over time and the markets will no longer be driven by facts and numbers but by retards, panic, conspiracy theories, political rhetoric and the blind emotion of the emotionally disturbed.

I am sure the customers that signed those contracts realize they made a big mistake and are paying dearly for it, but on the other hand why should the banks that made mistakes too not accept responsibility for their own actions. No one is out there bailing out tax paying citizens that are in a jam....made bad decisions...ect, so why should we bail out these banks?

Kind of funny how their clients were approved for loans and then months later they could not even qualify to change the loan to a fixed loan.
These banks were the first ones telling the customers that took those loans that they could basically fuck off.....in a very cheerful way.

The banks knew exactly what they were doing and that was all fine and dandy while things were good, now that things have turned bad, they have their greedy hands extended looking for help from the same people they screwed. I do understand we need a strong and healthy economy to succeed, but this shit has gone too far and it's time to fry some asses and send them away.

These Banks and their executives need to be held accountable at the end of the day, just like all the customers that made bad decisions.

I have read it. The paper makes several very good points that I concur with but it is not the end-all be-all of economic truth. Note that throughout the paper there are disclaimers that these views merely reflect the opinion of the author and not BIS. If you ask 10 different economists you will receive 10 different answers, and to dismiss those who disagree as being merely stupid or lazy or uniformed is really not addressing the points. Perhaps it is YOU who is wearing blinders and not reading anything that does not already agree with your pre-conceived views?


:2 cents:

The market is rebounding a bit so far today.

If you actaully read that document and place any major level of blame on the CRA you are a complete moron.

EUR1.00 down to $1.4061.

Rather than personal insults, perhaps we could simply discuss the subject like the tolerant intelligent adults that we hold ourselves to be.:2 cents:

If you look at this statement in the paper:

"Contrary to some media commentary, there is no evidence that the Community Reinvestment Act was responsible for encouraging the subprime lending boom and subsequent housing bust. This Act only applies to depositories, and did not cover most of the important subprime lenders. Depositories showed a lesser tendency
to write subprime loans than lenders not subject to the Act (Yellen 2008)."

This statement completely ignores the reality that those subprime lenders, that the act did not apply to, subsequently sold their paper on to larger lenders to whom the act DID apply. Therefore the affects of the act were passed on through the market. Also, even if as much as half of the subprime loans were made by non-CRA lenders (which is the highest statistic quoted by anyone), that still leaves 10s of billions of dollars in loans made directly by CRA lenders that were defaulted on.


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You're completely ignoring something...

The subprime loans alone did not cause the problem.

Its the CHOICE the lenders made on how to USE the loans as leverage once they were packaged... no law made them do that.

The conclusion that a community development act passed 30 years ago was the major contributor to this is nothing short of INSANE.

Pleasure Pays maybe you should go on vacation or something. Your sounding bitter and preachy like my grandmother. lol
One thing, of course its easy to blame the consumer but if it wasn't offered it wouldn't of been taken. Also most mortgages dont go thru banks but thru slime bag mortgage companies that will say anything to get a commission.
Also its not just people dont want to pay, people lost jobs,wages are going down the toilet.Instead of a bail out, the government should of told the banks you made this mess you fix it. Instead of throwing someone out of their house ask them what can you pay and extend the load 100 yrs and say we will revisit it when things get better, your home starts to rises in value. So money is still coming in and home values dont go down the toilet.That is what should of happened.

I did not say that it was THE major factor. Any issue this large has many factors affecting it, (I said that I agreed with many points in the paper). But you should NOT dismiss it. Huge changes to the risk management procedures in lending take a long time to become established and to trickle down to the market to such an extent as to cause major swings in how "street" level lending takes place. 30 years is really not that long in terms of this level of change, and the Clinton Administration helped to start re-pushing the CRA, (which had been relaxed somewhat), as a caveat in allowing large bank mergers.


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:thumbsup Those fucking derivatives. I've read multiple articles stating that an economy as massive as ours could easily withstand the failure of the subprime mortgages themselves. The debt now owed on the derivatives, or bets that those mortgages would fail, is a/the major factor here.

Fucking lag made me double post

I'm still waiting for the info on how banks were forced to use the loans as leverage...

I give up, I should be working. You're gonna always find a way to justify it. Its like religion.

The right needs someone else to blame so they have held CRA very close to their hearts. lol Forgot about deregulation pushed by gramm. Since that happenen only 25 % of subprime mortgages fall under cra and I presented here yesterday a report on cra from the fed in 1999 just as dereg was signed in law and up until that point CRA was very profitable. Deregulation and laon bundling did this not cra . The right screamed for deregulation get government off the backs of business. This what happens without regulation.

Let's just all agree that economists do it with models

One more thing before I try to get mind back on work...

I apologize for namecalling.

you act like banks aren't falling apart. do you watch the news? no one is trying to "bail out banks" - the objective of injecting money is to stabilize the credit system somewhat and restore some confidence in the financial market.

While I am for the bailout and feel it has to happen in order to keep us from slipping into a major recession and causing us major economic problems the oversight of this money has me worried. All the people that will be on the oversight committee have other full time jobs and the committee will only meet once a month. Also, it puts much of this deal in the hands of the sec. treasury Paulson. On January we will have a new president and most likely he will then appoint a new sec. treasury. So really we are putting this power into the hands of someone that we don't even know.

Let me ask you this. Would you comfortably invest 700 billion (or for that matter any large amount) into a company that you knew had a CEO that would be gone in less than 6 months with no idea of who the replacement is and that had a board that only met for a few hours a month? Probably not.

Don't get me wrong, I think the bailout has to happen to ward off some serious trouble, but to say that there is substantial oversight might be a little overstated.

In my opinion the bailout simply postpones the market correction... and makes it worse.
The correction will happen no matter what we do, and it will hurt somone.

Guess who it's gonna be?

*cough*middle class*cough*

i'm not for or against it really. at the end of the day, i don't really care. the interesting thing to me is that people want to bitch and point fingers and because of that and the unimaginably profound ignorance of the subject, their lives were just made harder, not easier.

generally speaking, i think the market should be allowed to run its course and whatever happens should happen. painful lessons need to be learned on all sides. banks need to collapse... people need to lose their homes and the whole idiotic system we have of living on borrowed money needs to collapse. i don't think the government should be involved in the economy in any real way and i don't think airlines or banks or farmers or anyone else should be doing whatever they want with the knowledge that the government will step in and save them.

Yea, I watch the news and they are falling apart because of shitty business practices by them and others involved in this mess that has been created. I guess you should watch the news more often. How many banks are having to fall on government bailouts?
Yea, I know all about stabilizing the system. There are allot of parties involved. I for one did not create this shit ball mess, the big boys did and they should have to pay for it.
What is to say this 700 billion is gonna be all, they will be back wanting more money, crying about another fuck up.
The banks are not the only ones involved. I just want to make that clear.


http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showthread.php?t=858510

from cnn: edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/29/miron.bailout/index.html

" The current mess would never have occurred in the absence of ill-conceived federal policies. The federal government chartered Fannie Mae in 1938 and Freddie Mac in 1970; these two mortgage lending institutions are at the center of the crisis. The government implicitly promised these institutions that it would make good on their debts, so Fannie and Freddie took on huge amounts of excessive risk."

When my friend went down to the US to go to school for a masters he had to open a bank account to get his student visa. When he opened it with the tuition money they told him he was approved for a $750,000 mortgage. Keep in mind that this is a guy that has never had more than a summer job as he went straight from undergrad to masters. Obviously he didn't take it, but that kind of outlines a major piece of the problem and where it all started. Surely a high percentage of people are going to go for the mortgage since that's the world we live in. You have to have the best everything. We all see people driving cars they can't afford every day so are we really surprised?

In my opinion we trusted the banks to police this kind of thing and they failed us. It is their fault for pushing these products on us and to a much lesser extent the consumers for not doing the proper due diligence. Caveat emptor indeed. But when everyone is pushing the same products how is the consumer really supposed to know which way is up?

that said...playing the blame game isn't going to get us anywhere. The US needs strong leadership and a good plan. At this time, a solid plan does not yet exist, but I tend to think some action needs to be taken in the next few weeks in order to avoid a longer and more costly future.

In almost all cases I think the market should be allowed to work itself out. Like you point out with the airlines. If they can't make money flying people at their current prices then they should raise their prices or close down, we shouldn't be bailing out the airlines. If I start a business selling sandwiches and in order to compete with subway and quiznos I have to lower my prices to a point where I can't make a profit the government won't (and shouldn't) bail me out.

That said with this deal a lot of innocent people could get hurt. You could have regular people that work at regular jobs and made an ok living and are living within their means (meaning they own a house they can actually afford and cars they can afford and so on) losing their retirements and their jobs and they have done nothing wrong. The greed of the banks and mortgage brokers mixed with the idiocy of people that bought more house than they could afford on a sub-prime mortgage and too much deregulation could cause millions of people who had nothing to do with this and did nothing wrong to get screwed over badly. In order to protect them we need to protect the credit markets and a bailout of some form needs to happen.

However, I personally would rather see the bailout have more oversight. There should be a permanent committee whose full time job is overseeing this bailout. Any company that gets even 1 dollar of this money should have its CEO and high level executives not receive a penny in golden parachute/bonus pay. People who purchased these sub-prime houses should not be allowed to buy any house on a VAR or interest only mortgage again (for at least a very long period of time.) and we need to go back and look at all the laws and bills that deregulated the laws and rework them to make sure that this kind of thing doesn't happen again. They also need to adjust CEO pay so that they are not rewarded for driving companies into the ground even if no tax dollars went to bail it out. For example the CEO of HP just about bankrupted that company then got a 40 million dollar severance when she was fired. She should have gotten a kick in the ass and nothing more. If we just buy up all this bad debt and restore the credit markets and don't do things to discourage it from happening again we will be right back here in another 10-12 years with the same problem.

Yep the world is ending

"The Dow Jones industrial average (INDU) added 485 points, recovering much of the record 777 points lost the day before. It was the third-biggest one-day point advance for the indicator in its history. "

Much of that is investors betting on the bailout happening. Here is a clip from an article I just read:

"U.S. stocks roared back -- a day after their worst sell-off in 21 years -- and the dollar rallied as investors bet Washington would manage to salvage a package to stabilize the financial sector after Monday's shock defeat on Capitol Hill."

If the announcement had been that the bailout was a failure and wouldn't happen you can bet the opposite would have happened.

Blaming CRA seems to be nothing more than scapegoating.

I think CRA is just one piece of the pie. There are many different things that brought this all together.

Uhhh you say no law made them loan people truly unqualified but your reffered to the exact law that FORCED BANKS to loan to lower income ie unqualified households or face fines...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

blah blah... exactly my point from the start. "the other guys did this and i don't want to pay for it" ... you WILL pay for it. the entire nation is paying for it right now. Wall Street just paid for it to the tune of over 1 trillion dollars... jobs, loans, 401k's, personal investments... etc etc etc etc etc... you ARE paying for it. you haven't even began to pay for it yet.

cause and affect. chicken and the egg. Isn't the federal reserve also to blame for making interest rates so low that made private and institutional borrowing so easy?

You're 100% right, but a little harsh on the delivery..it's all in the presentation.

accountability and responsibility are not traits of this country. what people don't realize is that on a mass scale everyone is at fault (from the consumer level to the corporations) and everyone will pay. there is no running this time.

if you have been in that line of business, you will know that if you go down the line from a logistics standpoint EVERYONE is at fault.

I hear stories like your friend but when I went to get my mortgage,had good credit, buying my condo for less than it was worth. They gave me a upper fucking rectal and country wide turned me down. Now I dont know if its because I would only do a fixed rate loan but it wasnt no picnic to get.

$700b this round, then they'll ask for that or even more in December. It's the Bush Admin, come on.... These are the same people who convinced us to go to war under false pretenses and said that $50b should do it (quote me if im wrong). Then turned around and kept asking for more and more money? (again, quote me if im wrong).:2 cents:

what has to fucking change is the entire culture of the financial markets - it has become just a huge fucking casino with new games added all the time to make it all the more exciting - that wasn't the purpose of stock markets - they were to raise capital, to create companies, that employ people, innovate, to invest in, to create wealth that was actually backed by something tangible - people treat the financial markets now the same delusional ways gamblers treat their games and guess what - we just went BUST

regulation is needed - people are now shady by nature - maybe it wasn't as much so 75 years ago but it sure is now.

free market doesn't work when it's overrun with con artists and grifters unchecked - no matter how expensive your suits are , not matter if you went to Wharton or Harvard, no matter if you own your own corporate jet - a grifter is a grifter is a grifter

And blah, blah, blah, hell you are so much in favor for this, why don't you take my cut of the taxes I am suppose to acquire for this bullshit....how about that?

I have made allot of mistakes in my life that have cost me. I have had to pay a hard price for them, and I have learned to pick my ass up off the floor and regroup with out begging for handouts....so fuck these assholes!
I know that myself and everyone else will have to pay for it, this is why I am complaining and I am against bailing out a pile of thieving fucking incompetent assholes.
I am in favor for a bill to be passed....under one condition, every asshole involved in speculative loans approvals or any type speculative investment that sent families down the river to be brought before the court, tried and fucking sent down the river.

You don't think I know tons of money have been lost, well whose fault is it? Answer that? I am losing just like everyone else.
Beings you seem to have all the knowledge and knowhow, please elaborate on how bailing them out will not be a temporary thing and they won't come back whining about more poor investments? How the fuck do you know 100% that 700 billion will fix the problem or are you one of those that will keep throwing good money after bad for the good of the cause that this government speaks of?
Please enlighten us all.
And don?t give us any of your blah, blah, blah bullshit???Lets us all hear how this idea will fix the system completely!

The CRA is just a scapegoat as someone mentioned. Republicans sat down and said "oh shit, we've been in power for a long time and all this went down under our nose". Lets figure out a way to revise history and blame it on someone else.

The link our lord and savior provided was a good read.

The thing is this bailout won't fix the system. If something isn't done either through regulation by the government or within the financial industry itself we could very well see this happen again.

Here is the problem. If something isn't done many innocent people could lose their jobs and their 401K retirements and it could cause the economy to really be in deep shit. Many of these people have done nothing wrong. They work, live within their means and pay their bills, but they could lose everything because of what these assholes on wall street have done.

I have to agree with 100% though on the idea of dragging everyone who is responsible for this into court. That might not be realistic, but I think anyone who took out a sub-prime mortgage then defaulted on it should not be allowed another mortgage for at least 10 years and never another sub-prime, if they want one they have to get a fixed rate one. All the CEO's of these companies that are going to walk away with millions should get nothing. Let the sue and explain to the court how their actions warrant them being giving million in taxpayer dollars. Strict regulations need to be put in place to control this part of the industry. I know some argue that the free market works itself out, but clearly not in this case. The free market brought this on us and very well could again if left to its own accord. And this bailout needs to have strict oversight those doing the oversight need to be accountable and report back to the senate and president on a regular basis. As it is right now they are only going to meet once a month and that doesn't cut it.

This bailout isn't perfect, but it is needed. It is easy to say, "fuck 'em, let them fail!" when you don't realize exactly how bad doing that could be and how it could affect you and many millions of other people who did nothing wrong in the first place. Without it we could be in a million tons of deep shit.

I'm in the wrong biz.... dammit! :helpme

It is ludicrous to think, only the government can save us from the crappy outcomes of misguided government policies.

Even Paulson admits that he does not know if the $700 billion will do the trick. It's laughable that people in the government to this day still think they can legislate and manipulate the basic laws of economics.

So now the government is going just fire up the printing presses. They may temporarily keep economy alive, but the chances are high its going to just delay the day of reckoning and make it even worse.

Congress and the President cannot suspend the law of unintended consequences of their social engineering.

To everyone who thinks they fucked this up royally, wait till you see what they do with "global warming"!!

Hey, I got a novel idea: Let's use that money to educate those in need of learning how to save and invest their money. Teach them not to live beyond their means. Like someone pointed out here in the thread, some guy making 30k a year allowed to own a 300k house. No where else in the world is it easier to get credit than America, and that's the issue we are facing now. Defaults, job losses, foreclosures, all of it... Of course, our government doesn't help matters either, but the "band-aids" the government has are only temporary... :2 cents:

Sadly that will never happen. I saw the other day that about 75% of the strength of our economy is based on consumer spending. That means when people stop buying shit they don't need the economy goes in the shitter. When gas is high in price and food is high in price they want people to still buy TVs and vacations and cars and all kinds of stuff so they do it with credit.

i'm not in favor of it. i keep saying i'm not in favor of it. i think the entire economy should be allowed to crash and the weak should be thinned from the herd and all the idiots that are in homes they can't pay for should lose them.

i'm just tired of morons saying "those guys should pay for it" when people like you saying exactly that, don't seem to grasp the fact that YOU are paying for it and YOU WILL pay for it because it affects every facet of the economy.

what the fuck do you think is going to happen you silly twit? 10 CEO's are going to come up with $500,000,000,000.00 and inject it into the market/credit system? is that how "they" are going to pay for it? maybe they can just sell a second home or two?

What you have said, I pretty much agree with. I know we are in a jam, but it's time to lynch the motherfuckers that did this to all of us. I say take all their bonuses they got, boats, cars, summer homes....whatever they got as perks from the company's involved and sell off the assets....then put the fuckers on trial.

This is a frustrating time for all of us and tempers seem to fly. I am so pissed about this situation that I would like to get my hands around some of those assholes necks and choke them to death.
Hopefully we will be able to pull through this, but if we allow the bush bastard to touch any of this money....we might as well kiss all our asses good bye.

And as I have kept saying all along, I know I and everyone else is going to have to pay for this. I am not in favor of it either, but it has to be. Have you not been reading what I have been posting, you dork?
I have also been saying that the ones involved should be held accountable. I don't like having to pay for this shit, but in the end, I know I and everyone else will foot the bill for a group of crooked thieving assholes that will be allowed to walk away.

I don't give a fuck how CEO's or others involved pay for it.

Drama queen. :2 cents: