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tony286 09-13-2008 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 14750699)
So, if I sell one of my houses I have to pay a higher tax. Why? I believe you neglected to mention inheritance taxes are going up too.

I am sure there are others, but I really don't feel like arguing with a wall right now.

Maybe later.

You cant fight the war on terror with smiles. Also you plan on inheriting over 3 million dollars?

Sly 09-13-2008 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x (Post 14750718)
If it's investment property... yes... but you don't pay the tax on the whole amount of the sale in the case of Capital Gains tax... you only pay tax on the actual profit... at the same time you can offset those taxes with losses (like every investor does). If it's your primary residence and you haven't taken the one time tax exemption... then you won't pay ANY tax.

I still don't see the point in punishing people to invest. The only thing they will do is take their investment money elsewhere. There are dozens of developing countries that have great investment potential. Many people right here on this board are taking advantage of that. If we punish more and more people for investing in our own country, the only thing it's going to lead to is less money.

People with money are not stupid. They go where they will make the most, which is not where taxes are rising.

BFT3K 09-13-2008 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 14750699)
So, if I sell one of my houses I have to pay a higher tax. Why? I believe you neglected to mention inheritance taxes are going up too.

I am sure there are others, but I really don't feel like arguing with a wall right now.

Maybe later.

It is true that under Obama the PROFIT portion of a home sale will be taxed at a slightly higher point than under Bush, but thanks to Bush how many people are selling homes for a profit these days?

Most people nowadays have upside down mortgages, meaning they now OWE more than their properties are even worth!

The percentage of people who will be effected by a marginal tax increase on the PROFIT of their home sales is meaningless.

If you win the lottery you pay taxes on the windfall - same thing applies to inheritance taxes. It's like complaining that you will have to pay taxes on something you just got for free, and even then, Obama's inheritance taxes are not higher than McCain's until you receive over 3.5 million in inheritance!

Wah wah wah!

If you are a moron, then vote for McCain.

If you are a racist, then vote for McCain.

If you are an intelligent person, who gives a shit about the future of this country, and not just Big Oil, then wake the fuck up, and vote Obama for REAL change!

Sly 09-13-2008 10:51 AM

How is winning the lottery the same as receiving a large inheritance? Taxes on the large inheritance were already paid for by the person that earned the money. So essentially that person is getting taxed twice on the same money.

Are we creating these laws simply because we "don't have" so we want to punish those that "do have"?

BFT3K 09-13-2008 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly (Post 14750765)
How is winning the lottery the same as receiving a large inheritance? Taxes on the large inheritance were already paid for by the person that earned the money.

The person who earned the money is dead. It is an inheritance tax. The person receiving the money did not earn any of it - that's how it is like winning the lottery.

When you sell a used car it is taxed a second time, and if you sell it again, then it is taxed again.

Obama's inheritance tax is a bit more than McCain's only after you hit the 3.5 million or higher mark.

If your relative dies, and you receive more than 3.5 million in inheritance, try not to cry too much - you will be okay.

Sly 09-13-2008 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFT3K (Post 14750794)
The person who earned the money is dead. It is an inheritance tax. The person receiving the money did not earn any of it - that's how it is like winning the lottery.

When you sell a used car it is taxed a second time, and if you sell it again, then it is taxed again.

Obama's inheritance tax is a bit more than McCain's only after you hit the 3.5 million or higher mark.

If your relative dies, and you receive more than 3.5 million in inheritance, try not to cry too much - you will be okay.

If you sell a car, you are selling it. If you give your money to your child, you are giving it.

Big difference.

Oh well, the rich will just find another way to spin the money to avoid the tax.

nation-x 09-13-2008 11:11 AM

The point you guys are completely ignoring is that the supply side economic methodology and mass exodus of our manufacturing base has led to a huge reduction in the middle class... The Bush economic policy of corporate welfare at the same time that he has increased our debt by TRILLIONS requires drastic measure to fix and Obamas plan is a step in the right direction according to most economists that have a brain.

I think it's pathetic that you consider people that don't make higher incomes as lazy... my parents aren't lazy... my family isn't lazy. That is the logical divide between the right wing ideology and reality and it's offensive to say the least.

baddog - I am glad your family is doing better... mine certainly isn't (except for me). My Mom and Dad have been laid off from a variety of jobs over the last 8 years... their house was foreclosed because they lost those jobs and only now are they starting to get back on their feet because my Dad took a job at a prison here in NC. My wife and I own a house in Michigan that has lost 25% of it's value in the last year. My brother and his fiance are having a difficult time because he is trying to pay for schooling while working a full time job and she is a high school teacher making pathetic wages.

Sly - It's not about "punishing the do haves"... it's about "do haves" contributing back a relatively small amount in order to fix the problems that we have... because they have the means... the right wing narcissism won't fix the serious infrastructure problems we face or pay back the money that they borrowed against our future as a country... you guys live in a box or something... I will have to pay these taxes too (more then likely)... you don't hear me bitching about it... I think that we are ALL Americans... not just people with means. Don't you think that if we eat all of the food we should invest in growing more? It's common sense to me.

BFT3K 09-13-2008 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly (Post 14750803)
If you sell a car, you are selling it. If you give your money to your child, you are giving it.

Big difference.

Oh well, the rich will just find another way to spin the money to avoid the tax.

You are correct - in hind sight my car sale example didn't make any sense.

You are also correct - the rich will always find ways to not pay high taxes.

nation-x 09-13-2008 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly (Post 14750803)
If you sell a car, you are selling it. If you give your money to your child, you are giving it.

Big difference.

Oh well, the rich will just find another way to spin the money to avoid the tax.

Most people don't even pay that tax unless they are stupid as fuck... rich people set up non profits... donate most of their money to it and set up their heirs as officers with a monthly salary.

baddog 09-13-2008 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony404 (Post 14750746)
You cant fight the war on terror with smiles. Also you plan on inheriting over 3 million dollars?

Better be more than that, and let's stop to think about my kids.

Drake 09-13-2008 11:18 AM

If you make between $250,000 and $603,000 you will pay an extra $12 in your taxes under Obama. $12 is spare change. Do you make over $603,000?

baddog 09-13-2008 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFT3K (Post 14750753)
It is true that under Obama the PROFIT portion of a home sale will be taxed at a slightly higher point than under Bush, but thanks to Bush how many people are selling homes for a profit these days?

Blame deregulation of the mortgage industry that allowed people to get loans that they would not have qualified for prior.

And an inheritance is not a lottery. It comes from family. Why should everything I worked for be tossed aside just because I died?

Drake 09-13-2008 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gornyhuy (Post 14750240)
Tax the living shit out of me.
$250k and above is RICH and should be taxed more heavily?

Fuck that.

I have trouble stomaching McCain, and Palin gives me violent diarrhea, but how can I elect a socialist that is specifically targeting me and intentionally penalizing successful people and companies that grow the economy and provide jobs?

Any Strong Obama Supporters:
Tell me why I'm wrong. What am I missing about the Obama tax plan.
Help!

No, only those making over $600,000 are taxes heavily. If you make below that you either are getting taxed less or you're going to pay $12 more on your taxes.

baddog 09-13-2008 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFT3K (Post 14750794)
The person who earned the money is dead. It is an inheritance tax. The person receiving the money did not earn any of it - that's how it is like winning the lottery.

When you sell a used car it is taxed a second time, and if you sell it again, then it is taxed again.

Obama's inheritance tax is a bit more than McCain's only after you hit the 3.5 million or higher mark.

If your relative dies, and you receive more than 3.5 million in inheritance, try not to cry too much - you will be okay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly (Post 14750765)

Are we creating these laws simply because we "don't have" so we want to punish those that "do have"?

Judging by BFT3K's response, apparently so.

baddog 09-13-2008 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike33 (Post 14750840)
No, only those making over $600,000 are taxes heavily. If you make below that you either are getting taxed less or you're going to pay $12 more on your taxes.

If McCain's plan includes a cut of $7k, how do you figure it is only $12 more?

BFT3K 09-13-2008 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 14750834)
Blame deregulation of the mortgage industry that allowed people to get loans that they would not have qualified for prior.

The mortgage bail out is now a tax that ALL of us will be paying for, for years to come.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 14750834)
And an inheritance is not a lottery. It comes from family. Why should everything I worked for be tossed aside just because I died?

Who said EVERYTHING you worked for will be lost? Recipients of windfall profits pay taxes - that's just the way it is. The fact that Republicans would like to pay less tax on amounts over 3.5 million is inconsequential to the average Joe.

Once again, this is an attempt to make sure that the very wealthy get the breaks they don't need. The middle class needs the breaks, otherwise our economy will collapse, as it is the niddle class that supports our nation.

Drake 09-13-2008 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 14750850)
If McCain's plan includes a cut of $7k, how do you figure it is only $12 more?

I may be wrong but I think McCain's plan reduces taxes for those making $250k-$600k by $8k. Obama's increases taxes in that income range by a mere $12. Maybe I'm reading it wrong?

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news...ion=2008061113

Drake 09-13-2008 11:34 AM

Since the average American earns $22k, they will be saving anywhere from 3 to 8 times on taxes under Obama than under McCain.

Sly 09-13-2008 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x (Post 14750815)
Most people don't even pay that tax unless they are stupid as fuck... rich people set up non profits... donate most of their money to it and set up their heirs as officers with a monthly salary.

We all seem to agree on this... so we set up the new tax law, why? So the few "idiots" that aren't many savvy but happen to have money get stuck with the bill? What problem is this solving?

There are ways to get money and kickbacks from people that have money. Taxes just isn't it.

Drake 09-13-2008 11:43 AM

McCain cuts taxes and fights wars which increase the national debt in the same way that Palin cut taxes in her city and left it $13 million in debt. What's the gain in that? The debt has to be paid some time.

I don't really like Obama's economic plan, but I think his tax plan along with saving $12 billion a month by bringing troops home from Iraq may have a better net effect. But I will say I'm not an economist and my knowledge of how previous administrations in recent history implemented taxes is thin.

baddog 09-13-2008 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike33 (Post 14750868)
I may be wrong but I think McCain's plan reduces taxes for those making $250k-$600k by $8k.

I went by memory and lowballed it knowing someone would call me on the $50 I was off by.

As I recall, Obama wants to increase corp taxes as well, which would probably effect quite a few people here.

The average American makes $22k? Where did you come up with that?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104688.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Househo..._United_States

Are you including little kids and retirees in your "average?"

pocketkangaroo 09-13-2008 11:45 AM

I don't think taxes should be raised for anyone. I also don't think they should be cut until the debt is straightened out.

I think one of the biggest issues out there are the loopholes and people who abuse the system. There are people and companies who make money off Americans yet skirt the taxes. Companies like Haliburton setup offshore and treat their employees as contractors so they don't have to pay payroll taxes. They earn most of their money from the U.S., but don't pay taxes in it. You also have investment firms who are helping foreigners shield dividend taxes. They enjoy all the benefits of investing in our country yet don't have to pay the taxes to support that system.

Fix those and you have some massive new revenue sources come in without having to raise anyone else's taxes.

pocketkangaroo 09-13-2008 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 14750908)
As I recall, Obama wants to increase corp taxes as well, which would probably effect quite a few people here.

Most companies in the U.S. don't pay any taxes. Even foreign companies have loopholes around paying taxes here. As for people on this board, I would imagine most are S-Corps or LLC and just pass the income on to their individual taxes.

pocketkangaroo 09-13-2008 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gornyhuy (Post 14750240)
Tax the living shit out of me.
$250k and above is RICH and should be taxed more heavily?

Fuck that.

I have trouble stomaching McCain, and Palin gives me violent diarrhea, but how can I elect a socialist that is specifically targeting me and intentionally penalizing successful people and companies that grow the economy and provide jobs?

Any Strong Obama Supporters:
Tell me why I'm wrong. What am I missing about the Obama tax plan.
Help!

They are both socialists. This idea that one party is somehow not socialist is ridiculous. The socialism word is just a silly talking point used by the Republican party to confuse those who don't understand government.

As for taxes, I'm against them as much as you. But isn't it completely fucking retarded to massively lower taxes when the country is massively in debt? You don't tell your wife to quit her job when you have $50,000 in credit card bills.

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE 09-13-2008 12:07 PM

Yup and there are way more of us that make less than 250K a year. SO quit whinning and pay the fuck up.

Obama FTW!

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE 09-13-2008 12:16 PM

So go ahead and vote for Mcain if you are wealthy just becuase of the so called "Tax" saving you think ya might get.

Hope you do not mind more war's and further poverty in America.
Hope you do not mind a Soccer mom trying to grapple with Vladmir Putin or some other Dictator. Hope ya do not mind America not joining the rest of the world in renewable energies.

I am sure the money you make will retain it's value under McCain LOL!

crockett 09-13-2008 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gornyhuy (Post 14750240)
Tax the living shit out of me.
$250k and above is RICH and should be taxed more heavily?

Fuck that.

I have trouble stomaching McCain, and Palin gives me violent diarrhea, but how can I elect a socialist that is specifically targeting me and intentionally penalizing successful people and companies that grow the economy and provide jobs?

Any Strong Obama Supporters:
Tell me why I'm wrong. What am I missing about the Obama tax plan.
Help!

If you are making more than that, just set up a offshore company like everyone else does. There is more more than taxes to think about.. Hell under McCain you could see more rules on adult which could cut your long term income.

headless ghost 09-13-2008 12:33 PM

this is really boring

baddog 09-13-2008 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crockett (Post 14751088)
Hell under McCain you could see more rules on adult which could cut your long term income.

You could see that under Obama as well. :2 cents:

pocketkangaroo 09-13-2008 12:46 PM

The rules aren't the problems, it's the judges. A politician can put in any law they want, but if the people on the Supreme Court believe it's unconstitutional, we are safe. The issue is whether the President will add a conservative to the bench.

BFT3K 09-13-2008 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketkangaroo (Post 14751146)
The rules aren't the problems, it's the judges. A politician can put in any law they want, but if the people on the Supreme Court believe it's unconstitutional, we are safe. The issue is whether the President will add a conservative to the bench.

McCain will definitely tilt the balance to the right, guaranteed!

If you are in the adult biz and you vote for McCain, then you are a total moron!

NE1469 09-13-2008 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J. Falcon (Post 14750373)
How can you vote for another republican after they have totally fucked up the country?

Yes. what he said

Hank_Heartland 09-13-2008 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x (Post 14750670)
The only tax that Obama will raise is the Capital Gains tax... I don't consider repealing (or letting expire) Bush's stupid ass Trickle Down tax cuts as a tax increase...

Here are some facts:

Under the Republicans, corporations have seen HUGE increases in profits and reduced tax liability. A recent study (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08957.pdf) put out by the Government Accountability Office estimates that during their study period 28% of LARGE corporations (estimated as companies with assets exceeding $250 million) didn't even pay income tax and that overall... more then 60% of corporations paid no tax across all income brackets.

Why is this important? Well, the Bush administration, led by Treasury Secretary Paulson and conservatives led by John McCain are mounting a major campaign to cut the corporate tax rate even more, arguing that we are crippled competitively by having a US rate higher than any industrial nation other than Japan. "America has the second highest business [tax]rate in the entire world," says John McCain. "Is it any wonder that jobs are moving overseas? We're taxing them out of the country." But the GAO study confirms what we already knew: whatever the nominal tax rate, US corporations pay an effective rate among the lowest in the industrial world.

Yet the core of McCain economic agenda consists of breath-taking corporate tax breaks. He calls for cutting the top corporate rate from 35% to 25% and allowing corporations to write off investments in the first year. Combined, the Tax Policy Center wonks cost these at over $1.3 trillion over 10 years. Len Burman of Tax Policy Center estimates that in total, McCain would cut corporate revenues by about 50% from current levels. They'll be making hundreds of millions of dollars and not paying taxes. This is no joke.

To pay for these tax breaks, sustain the Bush tax cuts, add more tax breaks AND balance the budget in four years, as McCain promises, will require heroic cuts in spending. Not military spending; McCain promises to increase that. How will he do this? On the stump, McCain promises to veto any earmarked spending. But that is a gesture, providing about $18 billion a year. (And he isn't exactly consistent. McCain often tells folks who defend a local project that it is the process, not the individual project that he opposes.) Perhaps that's why McCain calls for raising Medicare taxes on seniors with over $50,000 a year in income and taxing employer-based health care benefits for families. Working people and seniors will help pay the tab for the corporate tax give-away.

It's hard not to wonder about the pure, contrary, inanity of the current conservative position. Our military is by far the strongest in the world, while our trains are among the slowest and our sewers are collapsing. So they propose raising spending the military and cutting domestic investment. We suffer gilded age inequality, with the wealthiest 15,000 families -- one-one hundredth of one percent of the population -- capturing fully one-fourth of the entire income growth from 2000 to 2006. Their average income rose from $15.2 million per year to $29.7 million per year. Meanwhile, the rest of us -- 133 million households that make up 90% of the country -- divided up 4% of the nation's income, adding about $305 to our average $30,354 income. So conservatives push for more tax cuts for the wealthy, while proposing to tax employer based health benefits. Corporate profits (prior to the recession) have catapulted to what is by far the highest percentage of national income in the past half century. So they want to cut corporate taxes, inevitably increasing the burden on labor. The economic future looks dim because consumers, drowning in debt, are cutting back. So they suggest cutting taxes on corporate investments will generate new investments and growth -- as if companies don't need someone to buy the products they make.

America's strength lies in the hands of the middle class BECAUSE without consumers there is no wealth to distribute. Republicans will argue this point as most are globalists (or buy into what globalists are saying) and if consumer spending in the US is low they will just move their operations to a country where supply side economics works in the short term. Democrats, on the other hand, view the economy from the demand side and believe that placing money in the consumers hands will boost consumer spending, boost our economy and benefit everyone. Bush has even subscribed to this policy in the form of tax rebates recently when consumer spending was so low that it threatened the economy. Just this week, reports of poor consumer spending and rising unemployment caused the DOW to fall more then 300 points in a single day. Obama realizes that the way to grow our economy isn't to subscribe to failed "Trickle Down" policies and that introducing these tax credits will in fact boost the economy over the long term as the middle class grows. In addition to tax credits for individuals, he will also be providing credits to corporations who invest domestically to spurn employment. He will also reduce the amount of taxes a self employed person has to pay with these tax credits... currently, if your self employed, your tax burden is more then double an employed person because you have to pay the employee and employer parts of the income tax.

So... in review, Obama's plan is NOT wealth redistribution... it is capital investment to rebuild our economy from the ground up like fertilizer is to crops after a long drought. Yes... it takes money from the wealthy and invests it in the people... yes it's probably a socialist policy... but placing labels like these on good ideas doesn't magically make them bad ideas for our country over the long term. It's for the good of the country and our people and in no way put the wealthy at risk of losing their wealth... It merely requires that the wealthy reinvest in our country to improve our country as a whole. I am positive that he doesn't expect the rich to love him... but later on they will see the results and understand what he did.

Most intelligent post of BOTH sides of our economic approaches I have seen anywhere in the last eight years...

Everyone, pls read and reread this post until you understand what is being said.

What is basically saying is vote Republican and the tax savings you get will be worth zip...

The capital gains tax savings will be worth zip...

Your $1.5 million house will sell for less than 1/2 it's value if your lucky enough to find a buyer in the 10% of the population that can afford to buy it...

US $ will be worth about $0.01 so don't leave the country...

Wars cost will increase to $20 billion per month...

Oil companies will double their average $11 billion profits, $4 billion new tax breaks, not investing in new refineries and giving us $10 gas at the pumps.

Corps taking care of CEO's with $ millions and stockholders while laying off $10,000+ workers at a time...

Iraqi's will amass $160 billion is oil profits while we pay for the war...

Roe vs Wade goes down...

Gay rights go down...

Women rights go down...

Civil rights go down...

Civil liberties go down...

More hassles in airports...

We get more Republican conservative justices to Supreme Court...

And a list of other thing we don't want.

gornyhuy 09-13-2008 07:16 PM

To be honest, I live in a state that votes democratic in a landslide every time, and has every appearance of doing so again this time, so because of the electoral system it pretty much doesn't matter what I vote.

baddog 09-13-2008 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gornyhuy (Post 14752607)
To be honest, I live in a state that votes democratic in a landslide every time, and has every appearance of doing so again this time, so because of the electoral system it pretty much doesn't matter what I vote.

Same here.

sandman! 09-13-2008 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzy (Post 14750294)
Because you have more money?

Very simple...:2 cents:

Are you suggesting someone who earns $20k a year should pay the same as someone $250k a year? :helpme

yes..............................

tony286 09-13-2008 07:28 PM

also people forget a middle class with extra money is very good for our business.

gornyhuy 09-13-2008 07:47 PM

To those that suggest "LLC beyatch" or "go offshore", you are essentilaly suggesting to play some shady shell game or try to "cheat" my way out of paying my share. That's not what I'm getting at here. Of course that goes on all over the place, but I don't want to be that way. A good capitalist society should reward and incentivize successful businesses, particularly small businesses, that are a huge part of the engine driving the economy, so that those businesses will make more money and pay more tax dollars (not a necessarily a higher rate)

By the way, most LLCs (including mine) are structured as pass through tax entities, and there are very few loophole games you can play in that scenario, so stop acting like you know something if you don't. After 10 years of running C-corp with employees, I'm now a pass-through LLC with mostly consultants and outsourcing instead of direct employees.

slapass 09-13-2008 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gornyhuy (Post 14750240)
Tax the living shit out of me.
$250k and above is RICH and should be taxed more heavily?

Fuck that.

I have trouble stomaching McCain, and Palin gives me violent diarrhea, but how can I elect a socialist that is specifically targeting me and intentionally penalizing successful people and companies that grow the economy and provide jobs?

Any Strong Obama Supporters:
Tell me why I'm wrong. What am I missing about the Obama tax plan.
Help!

With you on this. And this is why we will vote Obama anyways. The war is why we need to raise taxes. Without that there is not a need to raise them so we need someone who will stop the war/wars.

BobG 09-14-2008 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gornyhuy (Post 14752607)
To be honest, I live in a state that votes democratic in a landslide every time, and has every appearance of doing so again this time, so because of the electoral system it pretty much doesn't matter what I vote.

You can always donate money to whichever campaign you prefer.

nation-x 09-14-2008 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapass (Post 14752665)
With you on this. And this is why we will vote Obama anyways. The war is why we need to raise taxes. Without that there is not a need to raise them so we need someone who will stop the war/wars.

I agree... I think there are many other reasons as well... but you hit the nail on the head... it's like some of these guys have no idea that we are fighting 2 wars and have the highest debt in US history...


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