Like most polls here, most voting are not in the business anyways so whats the point?

Don't let logic get in the way of drama that's about 10 years too late (since pre-checks have been around for a long time)

if you cross sell to another site you control or own, its not too hard.

This was not meant to be a drama thread. I obviously am not in this for sig views. I also started another poll around same time in regards to pop up blockers.

The answer to the poll I was seeking is when you combine the two polls and look at the info honestly.

You don't care what the surfers think about it?

always amusing to watch somebody try to justify and rationalize what they know is wrong - i don't believe in 'karma' - i do believe that people who know better and do bad things find a way to punish themselves eventually

There's no other reason in the world for a prechecked cross sale than to cheat the surfer, none....

I think Xsales are ok if:

- they are clearly visible and legible
- they clearly show the dollar amounts
- they are easily cancellable
- the time period of the xsale is at least 3 days
- they offer the surfer good value (ie, $1-$2 to a big or well known site with good content)
- the xsale site is legit (ie, wont rape the surfer with hidden 'upgrades' and delivers on promises)
- the rebill amount of the xsale is reasonable
- they are controlled by the processor (ie, paycom or ccbill)
- the surfer gets a confirmation email for the xsales

For example, we buy clean, visible xsales, both pre and un-checked with practically no restrictions, limits or hidden fees. We believe our sites speak for themselves with tons of exclusive videos, photos and extra features. If they like it, they will renew. If they don't they can easily cancel, no questions asked. You dont have to fuck the surfer over to make profits on xsales. Could we be making alot more, of course we could. But that's a choice..

Also, I've kept some stats on Xsales. People say surfers don't pay attention but they do. I've monitored and tracked various outgoing Xsales to various sites/programs. Some sites perform significantly better than others on Xsales, all things being equal and no specific niches. So it's either domain name, brand name or the surfer actually typing in the site and taking it a look.

:2 cents:

I just think this is another subject that the consumer has no business being privy to. As I have said in other threads...you don't see car dealerships telling all their customers about the thousands of dollars that they "whack" you for on "product" in the backend. You don't see retail stores explaining that their "50% sale" is really 50% off of the 300% markup they did in the beginning. You don't see the phone company, American Express, the airlines, the grocery store, etc., etc. explaining how they really make a good profit. But yet here on GFY it seems to be standard practice to try and sabotage our own business.

Bottom line is x-sells have been around for a long time. And there would be no uproar about them even now if Mitch hadn't come on here a few months back and made a dumb post about it. My icq lit up with people asking me "what is he thinking" when he did that.

So now all these surfers on GFY are commenting on it like it's something new.

Well, again...here's a newsflash. Pre-checked x-sells are nothing new. They aren't destroying the business. Every major company in this business can prove to you that chargebacks are not an issue because despite all this theorizing...the reality is that the majority of people do NOT get angry about it.

Yes, there will be a vocal minority. Yes, there will be an angry email here and there. But the vast majority not only don't get angry...but continue the membership for many months.

There are a LOT worse things going on right now than x-sells. x-sells have always been a part of this business...and one way or another the things that are being called "shady" and "deceptive" have always been a part of all business. See my examples above.

And NO, I'm not gonna talk about things on here. But I can tell you about the past: Aggressive dialers that cost surfers THOUSANDS of dollars just by visiting a website and having a dialer downloaded on them without their knowledge and disconnecting them from their service and re-connecting them at several dollars a minute while they surfed. Or how about the old redirection of urls via geo-ip location? Or the never-ending pop-ups that would actually keep coming so fast that they would burn up all the ram in your machine and cause you to have to hard boot your machine?

THOSE were the real shady things that happened online. Not only in adult but in every online business.

Pre-checks? They are simply a way to make money that should NEVER have been discussed on a public forum with surfers involved. As I have said...you don't see other business revealing their business secrets. But here we are.

And even though you weren't looking for drama...you kinda had to know that since x-sells are the current "flavor of the month" for the doom and gloomers to spout as the "death of the industry" that there would be drama.

I'm starting to believe that the "bad" tube sites and torrent sites are putting people up to making these statements on GFY. lol Think about it: There are actually ignorant people on here who are making the claim that tubes and torrents haven't hurt anybody, but pre-checked x-sells are destroying the business.

Again...pre-checked x-sells have been around for years and years. Everything was fine. Tubes and torrents started posting up entire members areas for free. Sales declined.

Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

How many time has someone sent you cash for a membership because they didn't want problems using a credit card? I have seen it many many time

The question is when will we learn, we are down to a 1% cb ratio, checks are now at a 1% ratio,amex and paypal said fuck you. When is the next bomb going to drop. If you think people can keep blowing up merchant accounts and Visa is going to do nothing.I think we are kidding ourselves.

At the Atlanta Forum I want you to ask some MAJOR players with big programs that do thousands of x-sells a day. I want you to ask them their cb ration. They laugh at 1% because none of them ever come CLOSE to that figure. They are all FAR below 1 %

I'm not going to go into it in public, but tony...there are ways to ensure that cb doesn't happen. Smart people in this business know how to make money, not how to lose it. And it's not smart to keep talking about this.

To be fair paypal did not drop us for CB and more for image and to many "under age non nude" sites using the system.

Also when Amex dropped out adult had way less of a CB percentage as auction sites, and even places like amazon. So I think again they had other reasons.

I won't accept that . And if you've "seen it many many times" I'd like to know how? What paysite do you own?

I know that neither I nor anyone I know of that owns a paysite would ever take cash or any form of payment through the U.S. mail. The minute you do, you might as well get ready to have the feds bust your door in...because you just got stung for selling a membership to a minor.

Consumers can read.

If they can't, they shouldn't be online.

End of story.

Yes/no ..

Yes : Most of the big programs do them, sure they fuck the surfer, but the industry is dying anyway so might aswell grab as much as you can while you can.

No : Not on revshare. Even 70-80% revshare with prechecked xsales is ripping off the affiliate. You gonna offer revshare, payout on everything except for xsales.

Well there can be no argument that prechecked xsales are bad for this business long term because surfers generally don't signup again once they get hit by a site that slugs them for $120+ a month.

Sausage this is clearly marked I asked about. Can not see how that would be fucking anyone if it is clearly marked.

As for the revshare issue, I about gag at the thought that even 70-80% with pre checked is ripping off the affiliate. I have a hard time swallowing even the 50% model for the vast majority of affiliates based on the amount of resources and tools they use. I may get very flamed but I honestly do think affiliates are over paid and I say this as both a paysite owner as well as an affiliate to a shitload of paysites and programs.

Did someone say something about buying me and Footyboy drinks at the bar? :winkwink::upsidedow

Oh hell I agree with you regarding how much affiliates are paid, though in general compared to other payout models I feel offering a revshare and not including prechecked xsells isn't the done thing. The PPS model is one that gives a flat payout calculated from all revenue streams, and even if you sell a trial you get your $30. Revshare is a model that represents a share of the site's profit .. in essence you are going into partnership with the program for the life of that surfers membership. Only paying out on the core membership and ignoring the very profitable xsales and pops etc is poor, though I admit most of those programs have a PPS option which is almost always better.

Very few if any major companies in mainstream use PRE-CHECKED cross sales. They will sometimes make you go through various screens, make the options for not adding on real small (hello GoDaddy!), but for the most part don't pre-check stuff that will hit customers for that kind of money. The only company I've seen that does this of late is Intelius and they have taken a ton of shit over it.