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-   -   Money or Ethics what matters to you more? (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=845953)

CaptainHowdy 08-05-2008 06:42 PM
Morals can be very subjective in a place like this... :/

mattsbeachhouse 08-05-2008 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RP Fade (Post 14567271)
One of the biggest problems that I've witnessed in 10+ years in the biz is that you always have a couple of rotten apples that ruin the bunch. For example, you'll have Company X doing $150+ in hidden bogus cross-sales and doing massive payouts. Then Company Y looks at them and says 'shit, i can't compete so I have to go to that level in order to do so' or 'hmm..thats a great way for me to make more money' and it dominos from there. I personally know of 2-3 programs following that sad, unfortunate route as we speak, much to my dismay...

My biggest complaint with the biz is that we are all in this together. For example, I cringe at those webmasters or programs who simply say they could care less what a particular company does because it does not affect them. That is the biggest fallacy in our biz. What one company does has a huge rippling affect on the entire industry.

Let's take Visa for an example. Visa is Visa, it does not matter how you process with them or what platform/backend/processor you use. If Visa ends up getting pissed and implements something radical like no more auto-rebills (one bank already initiated this for their cardholders in Europe), no more xsales or something more extreme like 'fuck the adult biz' like Amex did, we are ALL fucked, not just that one particular company. Let's face it, the next time Visa gets pissed (like they did when they lowered the cb ratio and started scrubbing sites harder), they're not gonna come in and say 'you company X are the bad guys, you go to the corner but you company Y are running a clean adult business so you get a star'. No, they're gonna come in and systematically carpet bomb the entire industry because frankly, adult dollars are not THAT important to them and they dont have time to police us if we can't police ourselves. But I can hear the pundits already saying 'that'll never happen and if it did, we'll always find another way'. But I tend to think you only get so many warnings and chances..

And for every pissed off, disgruntled and unsatisfied surfer/member out there that's been scammed or ripped off by someone in our biz, that's just one less person in our collective customer pool, which again, affects everyone of us.

And what's the saddest part of all this? You don't need to rip people off, charge $150-$200 in xsales and run scams to make good money in this biz. It's just pure greed..

:2 cents:
Thank you for using logic in your post.

Klen 08-06-2008 04:50 AM
I would rather live on street without anything then live without ethic.Money earned on misery of others is not good money.

Mutt 08-06-2008 05:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RP Fade (Post 14567271)

And what's the saddest part of all this? You don't need to rip people off, charge $150-$200 in xsales and run scams to make good money in this biz. It's just pure greed..

bingo

the moral relativism that always pops up in these type of threads never fails to make me laugh - just admit you're a scumbag and deal with it.

Barefootsies 08-06-2008 05:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutt (Post 14569748)
bingo

the moral relativism that always pops up in these type of threads never fails to make me laugh - just admit you're a scumbag and deal with it.
:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

raven1083 08-06-2008 07:34 AM
that means money can really makes the world go round

tranza 08-06-2008 07:50 AM
It's hard to keep making money for a long time without ethics...

Karupted Charles 08-06-2008 08:06 AM
There is a lot to read over here so I will comment more later today. PR Fade I really appreciate your post and the time you put into it. NSCash is one of those names that comes up consistently when talking to programs about who does it right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tranza (Post 14570245)
It's hard to keep making money for a long time without ethics...
Tranza I wish this was true and in some ways it is. The issue is or atleast what i have heard is that many programs will admit to the right people that they are not in for long term. They want to get in make as much as they can as fast as they can not burn bridges openly however on the DL they are running shady behavior because they don't care about the people they fuck or the industry itself.

Do you guys think they guys burning CC's or who rip people off care what is said or what you think of them? However there is a group small as it may be that is fed up with this. A group that is called whiners cause we want to play a long term strategy not a short term game. People that understand that if you do it right, you build a strong base with those long term thinkers that you will make more. Not today or tomorrow but over the lifetime of a business. A lifetime that is at risk due to the scamers and the people thinking of only today.

Most of these people are the quiet ones. They don't pay big bucks on advertising (I'm not saying big advertisers are scammers). They may only read the boards or have given up on them cause often the masses seam to tend to lean towards the fuck if X is doing thein then why can't I. This shift to a time when the fast dollar is more important then your rep has been happening for years as the bar for creating a program has been made lower due to various software and cheap licensed content.

We want to take a proactive approach to tackling this issue before the gov't or visa get really pissed and before we have pissed off so many surfers that nothing is left.

If you see eye to eye with me or maybe have an idea or suggestion please let me know. I will not be in FLA but I will be in Atlanta and I want to talk to you if you have any plan of being here when we celebrate our 20 years in business in 2018.

mattsbeachhouse 08-06-2008 08:31 AM
Dude, its a dog eat dog world I am afraid. While I commend you on keeping your integrity and ethical stance, I am afraid that while you are going to to do things the right way, the unfortunate inevitably going to happen. Surfers WILL get screwed, VISA will get pissed at some point, and the Gov't is already forcing your hands. While you are willing to work hard playing by the rules, others are getting rich by fucking the rules over. Sad fact, when it all comes to an end, its ends for both, the ethical and unethical. The only difference is the unethical will have more money and more to show for their time in the adult world.

It doesnt make it right but its business. There are plenty of mom and pop shops in any industry that did things the right way only to be put out of business because they cannot compete with unethical practices. Companies like Walmart are notorious for unethical practices at a lower cost but how many niche mom and pops stores were hurt directly by Walmart? Does anyone really give a shit?

The fuckers will ALWAYS trump the fuckees every time, especially in the adult industry. Personally, I do not think this business will be here in this form in 20 years. Honestly, I dont see VISA or MasterCard lasting another five years....then where will you be?

12clicks 08-06-2008 08:51 AM
I operate under my own ethics and care not a wit for operating under someone else's.
My business partners all seem to like it.

12clicks 08-06-2008 08:54 AM
did you cut and paste this from 1997?
The sky is always falling for some.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsbeachhouse (Post 14570434)
Dude, its a dog eat dog world I am afraid. While I commend you on keeping your integrity and ethical stance, I am afraid that while you are going to to do things the right way, the unfortunate inevitably going to happen. Surfers WILL get screwed, VISA will get pissed at some point, and the Gov't is already forcing your hands. While you are willing to work hard playing by the rules, others are getting rich by fucking the rules over. Sad fact, when it all comes to an end, its ends for both, the ethical and unethical. The only difference is the unethical will have more money and more to show for their time in the adult world.

It doesnt make it right but its business. There are plenty of mom and pop shops in any industry that did things the right way only to be put out of business because they cannot compete with unethical practices. Companies like Walmart are notorious for unethical practices at a lower cost but how many niche mom and pops stores were hurt directly by Walmart? Does anyone really give a shit?

The fuckers will ALWAYS trump the fuckees every time, especially in the adult industry. Personally, I do not think this business will be here in this form in 20 years. Honestly, I dont see VISA or MasterCard lasting another five years....then where will you be?

Trixxxia 08-06-2008 09:15 AM
Ethics x 5

Robbie 08-06-2008 09:33 AM
That's the problem with these kind of posts...they draw surfers like mattsbeachhouse and further expose how our business works.

You know, I have no idea how the banking industry REALLY works, or the auto industry, or ANY industry. We all have generalizations. And most of them are public companies so there are stock meetings.

But NONE of them reveal the true inner workings of their business...as in what goes on in the office of the top people. It would make them weak and open to failure once competitors or (in our case) people who want them eliminated...want to go after them.

If there's one thing I think that is a big mistake it's people coming on this message board talking about HOW things work.

10 years ago a surfer didn't even know there was such a thing as an affiliate program. They visited a website and it was presented to them as a person shooting porn and sharing it with them for a price.

But now thanks to GFY and others...they know every goddamn thing about affiliate programs, how they work, business tricks, etc. ,etc.

As I said earlier...car salesmen sure don't go out of their way to tell you how you are going to end up spending $100,000 on a $30,000 vehicle before they get done with you.

But for some reason...some people in adult just can't wait to reveal everything to our customers. I'm sorry, but that is just not good business.

mattsbeachhouse 08-06-2008 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 14570769)
That's the problem with these kind of posts...they draw surfers like mattsbeachhouse and further expose how our business works.

You know, I have no idea how the banking industry REALLY works, or the auto industry, or ANY industry. We all have generalizations. And most of them are public companies so there are stock meetings.

But NONE of them reveal the true inner workings of their business...as in what goes on in the office of the top people. It would make them weak and open to failure once competitors or (in our case) people who want them eliminated...want to go after them.

If there's one thing I think that is a big mistake it's people coming on this message board talking about HOW things work.

10 years ago a surfer didn't even know there was such a thing as an affiliate program. They visited a website and it was presented to them as a person shooting porn and sharing it with them for a price.

But now thanks to GFY and others...they know every goddamn thing about affiliate programs, how they work, business tricks, etc. ,etc.

As I said earlier...car salesmen sure don't go out of their way to tell you how you are going to end up spending $100,000 on a $30,000 vehicle before they get done with you.

But for some reason...some people in adult just can't wait to reveal everything to our customers. I'm sorry, but that is just not good business.
Back to the manifesto, an educated adult customer is a customer no longer. And America is getting smarter by the minute.

mattsbeachhouse 08-06-2008 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12clicks (Post 14570582)
did you cut and paste this from 1997?
The sky is always falling for some.
Show me where I am wrong? Visa raising its start up costs was only the first shot across the bow. VISA has the adult industry EXACTLY where it wants them. If they came out tomorrow and said that it would only cost $5k to start, how many would that eliminate? How many would or could afford to continue?

Adult is such a small part on VISA's business side. VISA controls online adult. And mark my words, the government is about to put pressure on Visa for processing adult in the USA.

Matt 26z 08-06-2008 10:00 AM
The only people who have to make the ethics vs. money decision are those incapable of producing ethical money.

Let's face it, the typical adult industry worker be it anyone from models to designers to paysite owners didn't exactly come here from the upper echelons of society. The people who work in adult usually "ended up here" from a less than ideal situation. That in itself is responsible for the environment where an above average number of webmasters are willing to profit at the unjust expense of others.

I have much more respect for the guy flipping burgers at McDonalds to feed his kid than the "successful" webmaster who skirts the law to make his money.

If you deal in stolen content or rely on cross sale deception (or affiliate with this behavior), you are not making an honest living. You are not a real man. You deserve the respect of nobody regardless of how much money you make.

But whatever is said in this thread probably doesn't matter to the snakes. They have already made the decision to do whatever it takes to make their money.

mattsbeachhouse 08-06-2008 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt 26z (Post 14570903)
The only people who have to make the ethics vs. money decision are those incapable of producing ethical money.

Let's face it, the typical adult industry worker be it anyone from models to designers to paysite owners didn't exactly come here from the upper echelons of society. The people who work in adult usually "ended up here" from a less than ideal situation. That in itself is responsible for the environment where an above average number of webmasters are willing to profit at the unjust expense of others.

I have much more respect for the guy flipping burgers at McDonalds to feed his kid than the "successful" webmaster who skirts the law to make his money.

If you deal in stolen content or rely on cross sale deception (or affiliate with this behavior), you are not making an honest living. You are not a real man. You deserve the respect of nobody regardless of how much money you make.

But whatever is said in this thread probably doesn't matter to the snakes. They have already made the decision to do whatever it takes to make their money.
Have you ever paid your rent with honesty? Bought a steak dinner with honesty? I hate to say it, honesty is an intrinsic value and a nice one but it doesnt pay shit!

Karupted Charles 08-06-2008 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt 26z (Post 14570903)
The only people who have to make the ethics vs. money decision are those incapable of producing ethical money.

But whatever is said in this thread probably doesn't matter to the snakes. They have already made the decision to do whatever it takes to make their money.
True and I could not agree more with this part. Just know the one thing that gives me solace. We can not change the snakes but maybe we can change the stakes. What matters is that people like you are starting to be heard and maybe just maybe the few voices of legitimate business can join together and work to identify and deal with those that actually do care about long term legitimate money making.

Karupted Charles 08-06-2008 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsbeachhouse (Post 14571012)
Have you ever paid your rent with honesty? Bought a steak dinner with honesty? I hate to say it, honesty is an intrinsic value and a nice one but it doesnt pay shit!
You have made your point. You don't even work in the adult industry your just another clingon. Do us all a favor and go back to your kiddy table while the adults talk.

sltr 08-06-2008 10:28 AM
ironic nic for the op. lol

mattsbeachhouse 08-06-2008 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karupted Charles (Post 14571028)
True and I could not agree more with this part. Just know the one thing that gives me solace. We can not change the snakes but maybe we can change the stakes. What matters is that people like you are starting to be heard and maybe just maybe the few voices of legitimate business can join together and work to identify and deal with those that actually do care about long term legitimate money making.
Dude, are you fucking Alice in Wonderland? Cuz what you are envisioning is a fucking fairytale.

mattsbeachhouse 08-06-2008 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sltr (Post 14571039)
ironic nic for the op. lol
I was waiting to see if someone caught on to that. Perhaps if he learned to market better and work his ass off to maximize his profits, he wouldn't come begging for people with ethics. You want ethics, go be a school teacher.

Karupted Charles 08-06-2008 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsbeachhouse (Post 14571059)
I was waiting to see if someone caught on to that. Perhaps if he learned to market better and work his ass off to maximize his profits, he wouldn't come begging for people with ethics. You want ethics, go be a school teacher.
:1orglaugh your right let me go back to my moms basement and change before I have to go get in my 99 honda accord and drive to my day job thanks for showing me. :thumbsup

As for the nic the comp name is Karups hence the Karupted Charles name. It is no indication of our morals or ethics.

OG LennyT 08-06-2008 10:44 AM
always ethics and good karma will bring results I want

Paco, of Large Cash. 08-06-2008 10:52 AM
For me it is always about ethics. If I was at all concerned about cake I'd not be working 3-5 hour/days, 4, sometimes 5 days a week!

As for ""the company""/bosses..


Money, money money mo_ney..

..MAH_NEH (of course).

klaze 08-06-2008 10:56 AM
Karups got to where he is with Good Ethics and a Strong Moral Standing, He's a community leader, a big brother and donates his free time to the sick and elderly...

Infact he doesn't even drive a sports car or own a nice house.. He donated all of his profits to charity!
(and not just for taxes)

ethics? it's all perspective.

Robbie 08-06-2008 10:56 AM
mattsbeachhouse....Charles and Karups have been a huge player in online adult since I started in the mid 90's

You really are talking smack to a guy who can buy and sell you a thousand times over. When the teen and amateur niches were king in the late 90's up 'til around '02 there was nobody bigger.

And Charles is right...you're not in this industry and you don't know who you're talking to or what you're talking about. Nothing wrong in and of itself...BUT, you should show some respect and stop making all these definitive statements about things you don't know.

Please accept that as friendly advice. I wouldn't walk into the boardroom of GE and start trying to tell them how to run their shit. And you shouldn't come on here and join in with the other surfers trying to "fix" multi-million dollar businesses.

The successful people on here don't need to be fixed. We kinda know what we're doing. And Charles wasn't whining or crying...he simply is expressing a view (a wrong-headed one in my opinion). Believe me, Karups doesn't need to whine or cry about anything.

StuartD 08-06-2008 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsbeachhouse (Post 14571059)
I was waiting to see if someone caught on to that. Perhaps if he learned to market better and work his ass off to maximize his profits, he wouldn't come begging for people with ethics. You want ethics, go be a school teacher.
Karups needs to learn to market better???
Wait, you are new to the industry, right?

klaze 08-06-2008 11:16 AM
Edit: nm cartoon is too large

sltr 08-06-2008 11:23 AM
charles has been a player in adult since the mid 90s?

karups was a powerhouse long before charles was there.

Phoenix 08-06-2008 11:25 AM
Ethics is the word of the day

i see the word in every thread now..lol

kudos charles

klaze 08-06-2008 11:27 AM
If i owned a "illegal" tube site because I love porn and I want a community of people to share what they have found hidden deep in the burrows of the internet.

Because they just love porn and want to share the best of what they have found.

I'm just doing this to help the surfer grow as a pornissuer... When I say best off I don't mean entire members areas..

How are my ethics?

Is this thread just about Karups being bitter about the possibility of losing sales? Is his profits and bankroll what decides what Good ethics are?

Karupted Charles 08-06-2008 11:32 AM
Wow I forget how easily a topic can get derailed in this place.

1. Klaze, I don't know who told you all that but only about half of that is true.

2. I started in the business in 98 not with karups. I have been with them since 2001.

Robbie thanks for your comments its nice to see that people can still get along even when opinions differ.

StuartD can you email me I have something I would like to discuss with you.

Robbie 08-06-2008 11:37 AM
I was using the earlier date because that's when I first started making money with Karups as an affiliate. No disrespect to you Charles :) My real point was that karups doesn't need mattsbeachhouse or anybodies advice. Why in the world anybody would try to tell you how to run your business or imply that you don't know what you're doing completely astounds me.

RP Fade 08-06-2008 11:37 AM
Dont waste your time with the trolls Charles..

Karupted Charles 08-06-2008 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaze (Post 14571406)
If i owned a "illegal" tube site because I love porn and I want a community of people to share what they have found hidden deep in the burrows of the internet.

Because they just love porn and want to share the best of what they have found.

I'm just doing this to help the surfer grow as a pornissuer... When I say best off I don't mean entire members areas..

How are my ethics?

Is this thread just about Karups being bitter about the possibility of losing sales? Is his profits and bankroll what decides what Good ethics are?
First off were not talking about surfers doing this for the good of humanity we are talking about people that are directly creating issues for those of us who do good business. The issue is not tube sites or prechecks those are examples and only the tip of the icberg compared to some of the things i have been hearing.

Most important Karups is not bitter. We have a loyal following of members that buy our subscriptions because they know what we offer. We don't have to rely on shady tactics to make a few dollars more because we do good with long term business practices.

If you didn't catch it or I was not clear enough before this post was as a way of finding some of the people I did not know about that think like we do. Those who care more about long term business and the choices they make then fucking a surfer so hard he never comes back.

VIPimp 08-06-2008 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karupted Charles (Post 14565209)

We are working on some projects and only want people that have left dirty money on the table by not doing shady things to make money. If you are an affiliate that believes in long term money making or a program owner that believes in the fair treatment of both surfers and webmasters drop me a line.
Lets do some business together... FreakBucks is clean.

StuartD 08-06-2008 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karupted Charles (Post 14571427)
StuartD can you email me I have something I would like to discuss with you.
Email's away :thumbsup

Robbie 08-06-2008 11:53 AM
Charles, what kind of business did you have in mind? Other than members area upsells I'm in the dark as to what we could do for one another.

Or is the thread more directed to the handful of real affiliates with traffic rather than to other programs?

Karupted Charles 08-06-2008 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 14571600)
Charles, what kind of business did you have in mind? Other than members area upsells I'm in the dark as to what we could do for one another.

Or is the thread more directed to the handful of real affiliates with traffic rather than to other programs?
There are lots of things I have in mind and I'm looking for like minded individuals to brain storm with also. This is for program owners and affiliates. Will you be in Atlanta?

crazies 08-06-2008 12:03 PM
Ethics all the way and that's why we are where we are today.

Too many trolls and newbs talking smack in here for me to waste precious minutes of the day.

Chuck you know where I am and that I am with you 100%

BTW, Anybody knocking Karups either has not been in the business very long or are plain stupid :1orglaugh

Robbie 08-06-2008 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karupted Charles (Post 14571624)
There are lots of things I have in mind and I'm looking for like minded individuals to brain storm with also. This is for program owners and affiliates. Will you be in Atlanta?
Yes SoloSlutCash is one of the sponsors so I will be there. I fit both your criteria as an affiliate and a program owner. But I have to tell you that I am not in agreement over x-sells. Just because they are the "flavor of the week" here on GFY. They have been in place for many, many years with the majority of programs and the GFY "detectives" just found out about them and of course screamed to the high heavens.

But I have taken proactive measures to defend myself against tubes and torrents. I probably have no brilliant ideas that you haven't thought about yourself, but I'd be happy to sit down with my laptop and show you what I've done to protect my content and what I'm doing into the future.

I also see that you guys have a new affiliate program login. I finally got frustrated with the old one and just kinda forgot about it. It was a real pain signing up for each site separately and that old stats set up made CC Bill look modern. LOL

But this new one looks nice. I'm in the process of closing a deal on a new home in Las Vegas. So I'm a little reluctant to sign up with my current address, etc. When I make the move I'm going to have to go through over 500 affiliate programs and change my info

But your Milf site looks good. I could work with that. So as soon as I get my ass moved across country I'm gonna sign up and start promoting you again.

Dirty D 08-06-2008 12:05 PM
This is a great thread...
Good mix of opinionated trolls and successful business owners.

For the record, Dirty D is an ethical pornographer, slinging porn since '99
We are in this game for the long haul...
Never screwed anyone (except sexually) and never plan on it!

Running a affiliate program requires you to be fair with many thousands of business partners or you will never get ahead.

Owning a popular website requires you to be fair with many thousands of surfers or you will never get ahead.

We are always ready to do business with ethical webmasters and we cancel fraudulent affiliates with a quickness.

Robbie 08-06-2008 12:07 PM
Dirty D, did you get that package I mailed you?

Karupted Charles 08-06-2008 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 14571708)
Yes SoloSlutCash is one of the sponsors so I will be there. I fit both your criteria as an affiliate and a program owner. But I have to tell you that I am not in agreement over x-sells. Just because they are the "flavor of the week" here on GFY. They have been in place for many, many years with the majority of programs and the GFY "detectives" just found out about them and of course screamed to the high heavens.

But I have taken proactive measures to defend myself against tubes and torrents. I probably have no brilliant ideas that you haven't thought about yourself, but I'd be happy to sit down with my laptop and show you what I've done to protect my content and what I'm doing into the future.

I also see that you guys have a new affiliate program login. I finally got frustrated with the old one and just kinda forgot about it. It was a real pain signing up for each site separately and that old stats set up made CC Bill look modern. LOL

But this new one looks nice. I'm in the process of closing a deal on a new home in Las Vegas. So I'm a little reluctant to sign up with my current address, etc. When I make the move I'm going to have to go through over 500 affiliate programs and change my info

But your Milf site looks good. I could work with that. So as soon as I get my ass moved across country I'm gonna sign up and start promoting you again.

Cool man then lets meet up.

FYI X sales are not an issue with us if done right. Pre checked hidden cross sales or cross sales not not even on the join form buried in someone's TOS is the trend that is what concerns us. We offer X sales but we also pay the affiliates on them also.

Sands 08-06-2008 12:11 PM
Fuck your ethics, raaaaaaaaa! I own 7,821 tube sites. Suck it, losers! Ahahahaha!


Just kidding, I only have blogs and bills. :disgust

mattsbeachhouse 08-06-2008 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustman (Post 14571718)
This is a great thread...
Good mix of opinionated trolls and successful business owners.

For the record, Dirty D is an ethical pornographer, slinging porn since '99
We are in this game for the long haul...
Never screwed anyone (except sexually) and never plan on it!

Running a affiliate program requires you to be fair with many thousands of business partners or you will never get ahead.

Owning a popular website requires you to be fair with many thousands of surfers or you will never get ahead.

We are always ready to do business with ethical webmasters and we cancel fraudulent affiliates with a quickness.
Dirty D, how about outdated tests or lack of tests? Is that ethical?

Robbie 08-06-2008 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karupted Charles (Post 14571752)
Cool man then lets meet up.

FYI X sales are not an issue with us if done right. Pre checked hidden cross sales or cross sales not not even on the join form buried in someone's TOS is the trend that is what concerns us. We offer X sales but we also pay the affiliates on them also.
Then we're not that far apart. I don't think a pre-check is bad at all as long as it's in plain site, the customer gets a sales email explaining what it is and how to cancel it in a timely manner and explaining what happens if they don't AND a link to a cancel form.

Quite frankly that is what the vast majority of folks do. But I'm seeing a proliferation of trolls who are going out of their way to check peoples join pages and then if they see a pre-check they start screaming about it and putting them on "shit lists" and all kinds of craziness.
They are taking and generalizing ALL companies with x-sells and lumping them together with the couple of well-known offenders. It's not right and it hurts everybody for them to be doing that. Surfers read this shit and think they are getting "screwed". Of course the trolls raising all the hell don't care because they aren't in this business anyway. They just like hurting people and causing trouble :disgust

Robbie 08-06-2008 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsbeachhouse (Post 14571804)
Dirty D, how about outdated tests or lack of tests? Is that ethical?
See? Another example of someone not trying to be in this conversation...but rather trying to stir up drama. :disgust

mattsbeachhouse 08-06-2008 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 14571835)
See? Another example of someone not trying to be in this conversation...but rather trying to stir up drama. :disgust
Its a question about ethics? Is it ethical to lie about testing or being testing?


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