[PHP] Hard Coded versus Template Engine - GoFuckYourself.com

Hansm · 07-27-2008, 07:00 PM

What would you prefer and why?

I started a iscript and know i hear my client wants hard coded content in the PHP File.

Im trying him to change his mind but he is sure.

I disagree on this because its a total mess and not easy to work with in the further.

Just checking what people use this days. Im using template engines since 6-7 years ago.

Linguist · 07-27-2008, 07:04 PM

I would recommend templates. If a customer is set on hard coded content, explain to them why it's bad.

If they still insist on it - they are the customers so you have to do what they ask. If it takes longer to maintain you just charge them by the hour.

Zorgman · 07-27-2008, 07:35 PM

We're left TEVS as hard code as it gives more freedom for webmasters to change it to how they want it. Some of the things iv seen I don't think you could ever use with a template system.

drocd · 07-27-2008, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorgman

We're left TEVS as hard code as it gives more freedom for webmasters to change it to how they want it. Some of the things iv seen I don't think you could ever use with a template system.

Sounds like you've never really used a template system.

arial · 07-27-2008, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorgman

We're left TEVS as hard code as it gives more freedom for webmasters to change it to how they want it. Some of the things iv seen I don't think you could ever use with a template system.

Wow

fris · 07-27-2008, 08:23 PM

i like a template system, easy to change the design(s)

Young · 07-27-2008, 09:31 PM

1) Give them hard coded files.

2) When it's time to update charge them an hour.

3) Client Bitches

4) Tell them you'll have to re-code it for a template system

5) Charge Them 10 hours

teg0 · 07-27-2008, 09:32 PM

It really depends on the amount of traffic the site is going to be getting. Template systems are costly to performance sometimes.

Lane · 07-27-2008, 10:35 PM

Somebody once said, PHP actually is a template system.

When you add another template system on top, you are creating an additional layer. With new syntax, additional learning curve and more limitations.

I haven't met a person who can learn a template engine syntax (like Smarty or whatever), but can't learn the php syntax.

p.s. I'm not personally against using template systems, I just have mixed feelings about it.

mrkris · 07-27-2008, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drocd

Sounds like you've never really used a template system.

I agree.

mrkris · 07-27-2008, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lane

Somebody once said, PHP actually is a template system.

When you add another template system on top, you are creating an additional layer. With new syntax, additional learning curve and more limitations.

I haven't met a person who can learn a template engine syntax (like Smarty or whatever), but can't learn the php syntax.

p.s. I'm not personally against using template systems, I just have mixed feelings about it.

PHP is a templating language, but at the same time, it doesn't prevent people from writing shitty code, such as mixing logic with display.

munki · 07-27-2008, 11:22 PM

A lot of schools of thought on this one...

Here's my take.

Good code is good code, bad code is bad code... and there's a shitload of variance in between.

Strip your function pages from your layout pages... That's just retard mode basics.

Beyond that if a templating system such as smartys is going to allow you better cache/delivery options (a lot of subsequent db calls, looping code, whatever), and quicker updates use it... If per the project it's not a necessity, why code for shit that doesn't need to be coded for?

Zorgman · 07-27-2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrkris

I agree.

I have over 500 clients using over 1000 domains and not 1 complaint with my system.
Im sure those people will disagree with you - par a few.

asl · 07-28-2008, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorgman

I have over 500 clients using over 1000 domains and not 1 complaint with my system.
Im sure those people will disagree with you - par a few.

Damn I remember someone being banned from you because he wanted to change some parts in the code and wasn't able because it was hard coded and you didn't wanted to change the code or give him access to what he needed

ro8in · 07-28-2008, 04:20 AM

We was doing hardcoded for many years until the greatness of template engines came upon us.. And you still thinking to do hardcoded???

Zorgman · 07-28-2008, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asl

Damn I remember someone being banned from you because he wanted to change some parts in the code and wasn't able because it was hard coded and you didn't wanted to change the code or give him access to what he needed

No, You failed!

He wanted the code to the admin files which we ZEND. The front end is raw (no template).

asl · 07-28-2008, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorgman

No, You failed!

He wanted the code to the admin files which we ZEND. The front end is raw (no template).

My bad

SirMoby · 07-28-2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorgman

I have over 500 clients using over 1000 domains and not 1 complaint with my system.
Im sure those people will disagree with you - par a few.

All the code that is customer presentation is hard coded and seems easy to modify as my PHP skills are lacking and I was able to make some mods. Upgrading may be a bitch but that's up to my mods and the newer version. It doesn't have to be terrible but it might be.

I don't see any reason to change the way TEVs is doing things.

tranza · 07-28-2008, 08:00 AM

Template Engine is good!

Zorgman · 07-28-2008, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirMoby

All the code that is customer presentation is hard coded and seems easy to modify as my PHP skills are lacking and I was able to make some mods. Upgrading may be a bitch but that's up to my mods and the newer version. It doesn't have to be terrible but it might be.

I don't see any reason to change the way TEVs is doing things.

Yes, the new version will be pretty easy to upgrade too. It's mostly admin controls that are updated, but some small changes on the front are needed. I will have detailed docs to take all webmasters thought this.

dready · 07-28-2008, 08:11 AM

Clean smarty templates are much easier to edit if you don't understand PHP at all.

Bird · 07-28-2008, 09:09 AM

Templating is the way to go if your using a CMS

Varius · 07-28-2008, 09:42 AM

Well Hans, I'm sure you already know my opinion

Smarty is the way I'd go for any PHP site I create. My main reasons:

- Multi-lingual sites become much cleaner/easier (esp. with a few custom hacks to the smarty class allowing you to use the {l} tag)

- Seperating code and html/design makes things cleaner and easier to work on in future.

- When you want to ship off your templates for a redesign, it's a lot easier to have a designer not screw up your few simple smarty tags than working through your php code

- WAP applications as well as other functionality is made much easier with Smarty's functions

I'm sure there are tons of other reasons I could think of if the above wasn't enough.

k0nr4d · 07-28-2008, 10:15 AM

I REALLY dislike template engines, and I prefer to create header/footer files and seperate my php code from the html as much as possible.

If a user can type {$title} in a template, they can just as easily type $row[title]. When doing loops, more people know and understand how to do them in PHP then in smarty.

bDok · 07-28-2008, 10:30 AM

there a couple questions involved before the decision of hard coded or template comes into play. There is a time and place for both.

shadowsdrop · 07-28-2008, 11:10 AM

I recommend templates. It's simple and can save lots of time.

brandonstills · 07-28-2008, 11:40 AM

Depends on what you mean. Generally design should be separate from code. This is a basic principle of MVC that has been established as a best practice for more than a decade.

However, just because someone doesn't use a template doesn't mean they aren't separating their design from their code. There are many more ways than templates to accomplish this.

In fact, I rarely use templates because I find them very inefficient (from a development standpoint), the only exception is when I need to expose template type functionality to an end user where they will be coming up with a different design on a daily basis (like email newsletters or something).

The books "The Pragmatic Programmer" or "Code Generation" have some good ideas of other ways to go about things. I highly recommend them.

brandonstills · 07-28-2008, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k0nr4d

I REALLY dislike template engines, and I prefer to create header/footer files and seperate my php code from the html as much as possible.

If a user can type {$title} in a template, they can just as easily type $row[title]. When doing loops, more people know and understand how to do them in PHP then in smarty.

For once I agree with you.

jwerd · 07-30-2008, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandonstills

Depends on what you mean. Generally design should be separate from code. This is a basic principle of MVC that has been established as a best practice for more than a decade.

However, just because someone doesn't use a template doesn't mean they aren't separating their design from their code. There are many more ways than templates to accomplish this.

In fact, I rarely use templates because I find them very inefficient (from a development standpoint), the only exception is when I need to expose template type functionality to an end user where they will be coming up with a different design on a daily basis (like email newsletters or something).

The books "The Pragmatic Programmer" or "Code Generation" have some good ideas of other ways to go about things. I highly recommend them.

Exactly!

07-27-2008, 07:00 PM	#1
Hansm Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 871	[PHP] Hard Coded versus Template Engine What would you prefer and why? I started a iscript and know i hear my client wants hard coded content in the PHP File. Im trying him to change his mind but he is sure. I disagree on this because its a total mess and not easy to work with in the further. Just checking what people use this days. Im using template engines since 6-7 years ago.

07-27-2008, 07:04 PM	#2
Linguist Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 1,706	I would recommend templates. If a customer is set on hard coded content, explain to them why it's bad. If they still insist on it - they are the customers so you have to do what they ask. If it takes longer to maintain you just charge them by the hour. __________________ 315-310

07-27-2008, 07:35 PM	#3
Zorgman Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 6,103	We're left TEVS as hard code as it gives more freedom for webmasters to change it to how they want it. Some of the things iv seen I don't think you could ever use with a template system. __________________ ---

07-27-2008, 08:23 PM	#6
fris Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 55,372	i like a template system, easy to change the design(s) __________________ Since 1999: 69 Adult Industry awards for Best Hosting Company and professional excellence. WP Stuff

07-27-2008, 09:31 PM	#7
Young Bland for life Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,468	1) Give them hard coded files. 2) When it's time to update charge them an hour. 3) Client Bitches 4) Tell them you'll have to re-code it for a template system 5) Charge Them 10 hours __________________ ★★★

07-27-2008, 09:32 PM	#8
teg0 Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Gringo in Puerto Rico Posts: 4,204	It really depends on the amount of traffic the site is going to be getting. Template systems are costly to performance sometimes.

07-27-2008, 10:35 PM	#9
Lane Will code for food... Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Buckeye, AZ Posts: 8,496	Somebody once said, PHP actually is a template system. When you add another template system on top, you are creating an additional layer. With new syntax, additional learning curve and more limitations. I haven't met a person who can learn a template engine syntax (like Smarty or whatever), but can't learn the php syntax. p.s. I'm not personally against using template systems, I just have mixed feelings about it. __________________ Last edited by Lane; 07-27-2008 at 10:36 PM..

07-27-2008, 11:22 PM	#12
munki Do Fun Shit. Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OC Posts: 13,393	A lot of schools of thought on this one... Here's my take. Good code is good code, bad code is bad code... and there's a shitload of variance in between. Strip your function pages from your layout pages... That's just retard mode basics. Beyond that if a templating system such as smartys is going to allow you better cache/delivery options (a lot of subsequent db calls, looping code, whatever), and quicker updates use it... If per the project it's not a necessity, why code for shit that doesn't need to be coded for? __________________ “I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best.” -Oscar Wilde

07-28-2008, 04:20 AM	#15
ro8in Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,542	We was doing hardcoded for many years until the greatness of template engines came upon us.. And you still thinking to do hardcoded??? __________________ ------ Offcourse its a dude posting here. Probably a fut ugly one too. Fuck still people falling for this 100 year old trick

07-28-2008, 08:00 AM	#19
tranza ICQ: 197-556-237 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: BRASIL !!! Posts: 57,559	Template Engine is good! __________________ I'm just a newbie.

07-28-2008, 08:11 AM	#21
dready Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 5,247	Clean smarty templates are much easier to edit if you don't understand PHP at all. __________________ ICQ: 91139591

07-28-2008, 09:09 AM	#22
Bird Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Stockton Posts: 4,365	Templating is the way to go if your using a CMS __________________ ICQ:268731675

07-28-2008, 09:42 AM	#23
Varius Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 6,890	Well Hans, I'm sure you already know my opinion Smarty is the way I'd go for any PHP site I create. My main reasons: - Multi-lingual sites become much cleaner/easier (esp. with a few custom hacks to the smarty class allowing you to use the {l} tag) - Seperating code and html/design makes things cleaner and easier to work on in future. - When you want to ship off your templates for a redesign, it's a lot easier to have a designer not screw up your few simple smarty tags than working through your php code - WAP applications as well as other functionality is made much easier with Smarty's functions I'm sure there are tons of other reasons I could think of if the above wasn't enough. __________________ Skype variuscr - Email varius AT gmail

07-28-2008, 10:15 AM	#24
k0nr4d Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 9,229	I REALLY dislike template engines, and I prefer to create header/footer files and seperate my php code from the html as much as possible. If a user can type {$title} in a template, they can just as easily type $row[title]. When doing loops, more people know and understand how to do them in PHP then in smarty. __________________ Mechanical Bunny Media Mechbunny Tube Script \| Mechbunny Webcam Aggregator Script \| Custom Web Development

07-28-2008, 10:30 AM	#25
bDok Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: SD/OC/LA Posts: 1,917	there a couple questions involved before the decision of hard coded or template comes into play. There is a time and place for both. __________________ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Warriors come out to plaAAaayyy! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

07-28-2008, 11:10 AM	#26
shadowsdrop Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Manila Philippines Posts: 170	I recommend templates. It's simple and can save lots of time. __________________ Sig too big http://www.gofuckyourself.com/gfy_faqs.html Want to use a large banner in your sig??? Contact Eric about getting on as an advertiser - eric AT adult.com

07-28-2008, 11:40 AM	#27
brandonstills Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Chatsworth, CA Posts: 1,964	Depends on what you mean. Generally design should be separate from code. This is a basic principle of MVC that has been established as a best practice for more than a decade. However, just because someone doesn't use a template doesn't mean they aren't separating their design from their code. There are many more ways than templates to accomplish this. In fact, I rarely use templates because I find them very inefficient (from a development standpoint), the only exception is when I need to expose template type functionality to an end user where they will be coming up with a different design on a daily basis (like email newsletters or something). The books "The Pragmatic Programmer" or "Code Generation" have some good ideas of other ways to go about things. I highly recommend them. __________________ Brandon Stills Industry and programming veteran [email protected] \| skype: brandonstills \| ICQ #495-171-318