FACT: A table design will have Near Zero compatibility problems while a Tableless one always will have incompatibilties. Statistics prove it, The browsers prove it and you can cry till your stupid ass face turns purple. Fact is, Tableless Design still has many display problems and browser compatibility issues.

CSS is all about presentation, tables are about tabular data, what everyone is telling you would IMPROVE the presentation. If only you learn how to do it properly.

look up.. the sarcasm flew right over your head...
perhaps if you pulled it out of your ass once in a while, you wouldn't miss such things.

and to clear things up...
I stated earlier that I rarely use tables for anything anymore..
My point has been, tables worked just fine... and they still do.

Its not rocket science script kiddie.
I just like my designs to reach as many as possible with near zero to no display issues whats so ever in absolute control of a layout!

Just because Tableless is new and all the amateurs wear the shit on the cuff slinging it around like it is top shit does not mean it is. CSS/Layers still have a ways to go concerning display and precision.

Using it on tours is probably near suicide. There will be display issues on over 25% of your traffic.

Funny how none of my table-less pages have any display problems across browsers, i generally use one conditional comment (do you know what that is) to provide a stylesheet for ie to overcome any of it's quirks and it works on mac and windows in all major browsers.

You are way off, this might of been the case two years ago but it's not now. CSS is almost approaching CSS3 you really think they have things that fucked up still? You have no statistics to prove it because your pulling it out of your ass.

Ever tried viewing a table based site in a screen reader, or brail display? How about rendering a complex table on a mobile device? How about providing an alternate print layout to your table-based layout so they don't have to print all the crap w/ your data?

Ever do any of that? I know i have a ton of times using divs, positioning and all this stuff you say is wrong and so flawed.

True accessibility isn't only there when it's convienant for you.

http://www.workingwith.me.uk/table_f..._go_table_free maybe that link will help but i doubt it since your oh so right in your little world.

I was going to let this one ride out but felt obligated to finally step in and say something.

1. It's AlienQ's business, not yours. Let him run it as he sees fit.
2. Why are you wasting your energy on such a petty little argument.
3. Get back to work.

I vote for:

D) Who cares?

THERE ARENT ANY DISPLAY ISSUES IF YOUR NOT A FUCKING TOOL AND CODE IT PROPERLY.


get it? Using it on tours is good business, not suicide, using it on tours is suicide for your career because you can't adapt, don't put the blame on it for your shortcomings

brail porn sites?

Good point, if he wants to continue to produce bullshit, he's more then free to. The only reason i keep responding is because the misinformation he's spouting pisses me off. I'm the guy that gets stuck fixing the table crap people like him produce.

So i did indeed get carried away, AlienQ by all means code things however you see fit, i hope for your sake you understand the truth about the subject one day. Your business will benefit from it and your clients business will benefit from it. Quit being so damn stubborn and open your eyes.

I'll even be the bigger man and apologize. If i said anything that you took personal, i apologize. I'm very passionate about web standards and good code because i work with bad code all the time. I might not agree with you on anything you've said here but i have no personal beef with you.

I'm done with this petty bullshit, getting back to work.

Not to be a dick.. and point out comically ironic things in such a serious discussion...

http://www.scriptworkz.com/
This page is not Valid XHTML 1.0 Strict!
Result: Failed validation, 7 Errors


how'd you manage that?

It's funny that you bring that up.

Many of my clients appreciate the fact that I code things they can edit easily. They do not need to know anything more than basic HTML! WOW I build for clients that if they so desire do not have to message me set up date get charged to do one lousy update!

They like it simple! You can call them boneheads or tools all you want, but hey I am cashing checks not taking advantage of people without advanced coding knowledge that has display issues and more often than not they could not update themselves! My shit is easy to update because it is simple and highly cross browser compatible!

Did I mention I also supply the source PSD document, or that I even make specialised cuts so all they have to do is take a little document update it and upload it to the server? Woot!

It's win win win with me.
And I charge less!

I never tried to make it validate? I haven't even really began serious development as you can see, it's a one page site with a few paragraphs on it. I don't really use it for anything and it's more of a test bed for other stuff then any site i use to get work, etc..

And yes ScriptWorks many Display issues occur in Tableless design with numerous issues in veritiable browsers but you know so much maybe you should learn that yourself:)

Alienq has no skills whatsoever, he cant design, hes not a webmaster, its not like he has any traffic or pushes any sales. his main skill is crying like a little baby because people make fun of him on the internet.

yup, but my design skills have made a couple millionaires and on my clients list I got a few of them:)

However I do not sell that I am a programmer, or script wiz, or traffic guy, but I know how to hook those things up and do referrals often!

Only if coded improperly, every page i code in xhtml / css for a client renders the same across all major relevant browsers. That's what i've been telling you. There might of been major issues in the past but it's came a long way, it's not hard to get things to work right across browsers. Other then the box model, their mostly the same, there are a few other little quirks, but i hate to tell you box model display issues your most likely harping about effect tables too, just not as much because you have all those extra attributes and crap forcing them not too.

Your own site could easily be accomplished with a few divs and some background images, instead it's like 6 or 7 tables full of tr's and td's and crap to muddle the works.

Don't be afraid of change to the point it cripples your innovation. Using semantic markup and css to style / position things open the doors to alot of shit you can't use tables for, and are a reliable (yes, i said reliable, i don't care how many times you spout off about display problems, because i know from experience that that is from bad coding, not some insurmountable obstacle facing css) alternative to the ways of the past.

I used to use alot of tables before, i understand it's EASIER to lay shit out with them if you don't know css, and i used to make alot of the same arguments you do, but i was wrong.

Take it for what you want man, if you wanna keep believing that table-less layouts are evil and your tables are the best solution go right ahead, anyone with any sort of sense can see that's clearly not the case anymore. At the end of the day it's your damn business, run it how you want to.

As for your intended insult at the end, i do know alot, i'm an expert with php, xhtml, css, javascript and have various other skills. I know i'm right on this subject, regardless of how delusional you are, so your gonna have to find someone else to fight with i'm done.

For the question about the validation. It's fixed ;) all validates now, so there, no hate :)

No offence man, but this is a pretty narrow minded view ... CSS is newer, so of course at first there were problems ... dude ... not all sites done in tables look 100% the same in each browser either :)

Open your mind ... and ... do some CSS tutorials :) You may enjoy using it :)

Dude... I do use it... I have already said that.
I just do not use it as a major tool in the arsonal!

I believe in what works and is simple for people and has the widest acceptability amoung all the various browsers on the net.

Take alook around not even scriptwork dork has a campatible site yet he advocates its use. That should tell you something.

Shit man just look at ialien I have that fucker in the middle using a div. Alot of ways to go about the same purpose of things in design. I usually go for the simplest. I guess I suck because of it? Hardly!

The site has Zero errors in display except the PNG's if you use a browser older than IE6.

I'm pretty sure I'm off my rocker but: Form follows function and "pretty" doesn't = sales... unless you like making (and spending on) new "pretty" every couple of months as some have mentioned in this thread.

Example - I want to change font color:
1. Open up a local PSD file, provided I have photoshop, find the correct layer, highlight text and change it to color I want. Hopefully stuff's sliced up and I can just re-save the slice. Otherwise I'm fucked.
or
2. Open a CSS file, change color.

I'm probably grumpy and old or something at 32... *shrug*.
Apologies for even posting.

Look man, i tried to even apologize if you took anything personal. I have plenty of table-less sites i've coded that work well across all browsers. I am CHOOSING not to show them on this board, because i sure as hell don't need my mainstream clients finding me linking them here, If your talking about someone pointing out the failed validation of scriptworkz.com it's already been fixed, so beat a differant horse.

You can live in your little dream world, i don't give a fuck. Have a nice night, and just once and for all to prove the advantages of a tableless / tabled layout, try creating any layout that isn't organized into a grid of blocks with a table, betcha you can't! You can create any sort of layout with css but tables at the end of the day are just a grid, no matter how many oversized images you stuff into them.

For someone that claims to be an innovator and a trailblazer you sure are stuck in the past.

I am gonna quote you ScriptKiddieWorks.

"Only if coded improperly, every page i code in xhtml / css for a client renders the same across all major relevant browsers."

Relevant Browsers? Uhh... This is the adult industry punk we are concenred about ALL Browsers here and the most reliable display methods...

Oh and alting in a duplicate version of a site that has browser detection then forwarding to appropriate layout is for fucking morons. Why no just code it right the first time?

There is a market

Don't you get paid?

right from w3.org

Abstract and status
It has been advocated many times that tables shouldn't be use in HTML for layout purposes

Try and apologise to me? Fuck you bitch, you aint shit worthy of acception.

PS: Nothing wrong with Grids and tables dude. What does Grid conotate now? SOmething negative? Table based layouts are nothing more than a means to an end to display. Its not my fault All the browsers in the world are not the same! Cry me a river.

I want a layout that is strictly controlled, I set it up in tables and I suck?
Fuck you asshole. I already know how to design without tables, I will admit I am not an expert at it, and I sure as fuck wont go before a client and swear by tableless design as the best thing since shit hit the earth and I can tell them all with legitimate reason why tableless may infact be hazardous for thier business.

In Adult design layout is pretty integrel and it is important to build for the widest possible number of compabtible browsers.

So go home, its over shut up and die on the road fuck head.

Alien, you design good graphics...

but this thread is solid proof that you have no clue about SEO, CSS nor its advantages...

SE's DO see data different in div's and tables...

much differently...

and as far as ease of maintenance... With css and php(or even just css) you can change 1,000 pages at once instead of taking on all those tables ;)

adapt dude...

This Thread Is Like The Energizer Bunny, It Keeps Going, And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going

Surely you can absolutly! I do not need to adapt I know alot of this shit already. My work proves and speaks for itself over the years.
I am not saying CSS is bad for handling some display things especially text display or dynamic text display in layouts, Absolute position is problematic and the difference to SE's is again Apples to Apples its not much different. DIV CONTAINER DIV is no different than TABLE TR TD. However in absolute positioning in lAyers you still need to put down the position width and height! Which takes up many more Bytes than a table.

You still end up with near same amount of code! Why again does CSS work better for SEO? Its just the simple really that the SPider's index only so much information. Whether it is DIV or TABLE capsulations is pretty petty.

Ya want good text control go with CSS thats all good with me man. Fuck all I use them myself.

And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going And Going

actually content in tables IS different than divisions... experiment...

also, the widths n such have to be read once... as where each table is read everytime on every page.... once the first page loads a css fgile, its done.. cached...

again... you are wrong there... i still use tables, im not saying tableless all the way, but 95percent these days is best for serious clients wanting maximum potential...

Well, just to clarify ... I didn't say you sucked :)

But I just think you're generalising as much as some people are about tables ... you said tableless would always have incompatibilities, which I don't agree with. But it's all good man ... debates are cool. Just a little too much hate in the thread, from both sides of the argument :)

Wait wait:)

Thats funny. If you are doing PHP and you got 1000 pages in the application you are a moron. Use a template!
Maybe you should learn more yourself regarding SEO and Databases and dynamic information, data vulnerability to hacks.

You always got some stupid condecending shit to say to me...
Which is why I won't refer you business. I decided today I do not like you.
So Go Fuck Yourself.

I found a cool artical.

Pretty interesting! Again do not take my word on things but lets site other developers thoughts on the subject:)

http://www.ironspider.ca/webdesign102/tablesvscss.htm

Hot damn I can not wait to launch my blog there is much to consider in the design sciences and woot, it's good to know i am not to far off from the common thoughts of the matters at hand.

he is nothing but a pole smoker

Another fake nick?

table design came out to 1200+ lines

converted to css 45 lines

looks the same, works in every browser tested. and much cleaner code

why do you care about that article? you're 10x better than that guy, that page looks like designed in 1994, it's talking about NEWBIES
and guess what? the page advocating the use of tables is.... tableless :error

anyway, I'm out, gotta build more tableless tours :winkwink: