*The biggest problem for Iraq is that they are sitting on a shitload of oil and N.Korea isn't(and that is why they are not beign targeted). Screw the idea of Iraq beign a threat for the US, they'll lose before the war even started should they decide to attack. It's comes down to oil. Iraq has it, the US wants it.*

Some basic honestly instead of full blow hypocracy using words like "freedom" and "values" would be in order - yea, nobody *actually* gives a damn about Iraq. Only the US with an interest in oil.

There are many countries who have leaders we may "not like" - the difference is they have no oil or assets - hence are left to follow their regime knowing there are not going to be subjected to "US interference".

A recent example of a county with assets.. Venezuela.. it was only a few months ago the US was messing there (third largest oil supplier to the US). They did not like Chevez and tried yet another "change of regime" but it bounced back on Bush and he "don't like to talk about it" no more...

All this very transparent motivation for messing in others peoples business is kinda sad and reflects the poor quality of US leadership - hell.. is there *any* quality there at the moment?

North Korea? You think they give a fuck about attacking the US or have plans to attack? Kinda doubt it...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mika
Assumptions

1. Iraq is threatening USA
2. USA believe that the Iraqi threat is a threat against US interests and sovereignty
3. USA has a right for "preventive" attacks against Iraq
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Irag is not threatening the USA, but is and has been taking overt actions against the USA.

#1 Iraq was defeated in battle and to obtain a cease fire agreed to terms. Terms which they have been in violation of virtually since they agreed to the terms in 1991.

#2 Iraq has been firing upon US and British military forces, ever since the "no fly zone" was established.

#3 Iraq attempted to assasinate a former American President.

#4 Iraq has repeatedly called for Americans to be killed where ever they are found through out the world.

Any one of the reasons outlined above is a legitimate reason to resume military action against Iraq.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, further assuming, that all nations have a right to sovereignty, you would assume that North Korea and Iraq have right to develop nuclear weapons. But USA is threatening these countries because of their (possible) nuclear weapons. Thus, we have

[QUOTE][B]
1. USA is threatening North Korea
2. North Korea believe that the USA threat is a threat against North Korea sovereignty
3. North Korea has a right for "preventive" terrorist attacks against USA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



#1 The war is not over in Korea. There was an agreement to a cease fire (a truce).

#2 North Korea has repeatedly violated the terms of the truce over the past 49 years. There have been military incursions by the North into the South. There have been military skirmishes fought, with loss of life on both sides (including the loss of American lives), multiple times,

#3 North Korea has an oppressive dicatator, that many of the worlds leaders believe to be certifiably insane.

#4 North Korea violated a treaty that it made with the USA as regards the persuit of Nuclear Weapons. Because of the treaty the USA provided them with aid.

Any one of the reasons outlined above is a legitimate reason to contain North Korea and its military capabilities.
You speak of "rights" which is an abstract term and is open to subjective definition. The fact is, this is not a perfect world, and idealism is not alive and well, and I suspect that it never will be. Any country has the "right" to act as it chooses to. Any country has the "right" to respond to another countries actions as it chooses to. In the real world it pretty much boils down to "might makes right". Countries play by the "golden rule", the "man with the gold makes the rule". Grow up, and learn to accept the world as it is, not as you would prefer it to be. I will repeat idealism is not alive and well.

theking:
*You speak of "rights" which is an abstract term and is open to subjective definition. The fact is, this is not a perfect world, and idealism is not alive and well, and I suspect that it never will be. Any country has the "right" to act as it chooses to. Any country has the "right" to respond to another countries actions as it chooses to. In the real world it pretty much boils down to "might makes right". Countries play by the "golden rule", the "man with the gold makes the rule". Grow up, and learn to accept the world as it is, not as you would prefer it to be. I will repeat idealism is not alive and well.*

Mmm.. I was not speaking of "rights", but now you mention, yes, any country does have a "right" to respond/react to actions of others and each are entitled to their opinions.

I find it amusing that the "man with the gold makes the rules" *g*.. The truth is this stance is arrogant and it takes so little for the mighty to fall by adopting this attitude. I never knew arrogance and interference in other peoples business was a virtue!

This ain't "idealism'.. ya just need to look at some history...

what the hell kind of reasoning is this?

(1) people are starving everywhere
(2) why is mika always seeming to attack america?
(3) is it just me or does there seem to be a lot of ignorant racists on this board? other boards don't contain nearly as many racist comments as this (unless you're looking at KKKYourself Board or FuckColoredPeople.com)?

anyway, i was born in the states and i am entirely ignorant about political affairs, and i doubt anyone on this board can know the whole story about what's been going on between the US and other countries, and i hold that partial ignorance is even worse than total ignorance because partial ignorance leads to incorrect views while total ignorance at least is impartial.

Now that is a sport I could get into.

theking:

North Korea has it's faults and broke another treaty... the "management" there, depending on who you speak with, may be "insane" or not, - but just take a look at the US Admin.. they are pretty nutty as well and have broken some rules... we ain't all perfect! NA.. this is "realism" :Graucho

If you will read what I posted above, please point out to me step by step how we are interferring in Iraq's or North Korea's business.

By the way... shit, I did not know this till recently... these "no fly zones" have no credibility under International law... they were "just enacted" by the US and UK. Think there was probably good reason at the time. However, what if a couple of countries decided to do the same with the US?? You reckon you would not shoot the patrolling aircraft?

Be amused then, because it is a fact, has always been a fact, and I suspect will always be a fact. Wrong, it does not take "so little for the mighty to fall by adopting this attitude", it takes someone more powerful, which requires a lot, not a little. I know certain history quite well, thank you very much.

You do not get it do you? Iraq was defeated on the field of battle, primarily by US forces. We intend for them to stay defeated. After Iraq agreed to the cease fire terms, Sadam used his gunships to target the Kurds in the North and the Shiites (spelling) in the South. The US imposed the "No Fly Zones" to stop him from killing his own citizens. International law does not come into play.

theKing:

*g* Oh hell.. that is a long one!! :-) ... We would be here all today! ...

This is something that has nothing to do with Iraq/Korea... it stems from a belief in some "superiority" that the US always is on the "right side" and only does good - complete fallacy.

It also involves "deals" of US "globalization" which have over serveral decades created bad feeling in many countries - hence the "why do they hate us" stuff? Generally nobody "hates" the US as such. This is just the effect of a never ending catalog of disasters where the US (for whatever reasons the admin claimed), has "interfered" in other people's business.

Part of the "globalization" involved "US aid", another fallacy. US aid in the vast majority of cases involved given aid in return for some arms supply agreement where the values of aid equal the arms values. (Israel is typical example). Other types of aid are, say $40M to some third world country who has assets and the result is these assets are stripped to the value of $50M - tis hard to call that aid! :-)

There are many "experiences" of countries dealing with the US where it has cost em a lot. Basically, many just don't trust the US any more... that is not just in the third world, but also "allies" as well. I've lived in a good few places around the globe and listened to "their side" as well (some justified, some not) but I've "smelt" this distrust in almost all of em. The US has a global problem in being "understood" - and that is nothing to do with the chosen excuse, jealously.

If you analyse the US dealings with Middle East/Iraq and North Korea... you will find this historical backdrop of a "little" distrust there. Basically ya reap what you sow - I only wish the US admin were not so fucking greedy and arrogant and actually genuinely used the word "peace" on the odd occasion :)

theKing:

*You do not get it do you? Iraq was defeated on the field of battle, primarily by US forces. We intend for them to stay defeated. After Iraq agreed to the cease fire terms, Sadam used his gunships to target the Kurds in the North and the Shiites (spelling) in the South. The US imposed the "No Fly Zones" to stop him from killing his own citizens. International law does not come into play.*

I did say "with good reason".. and you explained this in your comment above. I agree!

International Law supercedes *anything* the US may "impose" and certainly does come into play. If that were not the case, any asshole under the sun can then attack whoever (including the US) and justify it to themselves and say to hell with the law....

EURO Idiots at their best again. Man how can you be so stupid? Oh, maybe that's why your taxes are so high and your economy sucks.

drew:

Europe?... I ain't from Europe :Graucho

Also.. check your stats!.. US taxes are actually a few points higher than those in Europe!

International law is almost meaningless, just as the UN is almost meaningless. Countries on a large scale have violated, and continue to violate international law, as well as UN resolutions, at will. You are to much of an idealist and do not have a good grasp on the way things are and have been throughout history. Your rhetoric sounds good, your idealism sounds good, but this is a real world and idealism is not alive and well. Grow up and learn to live with what is real, or dedicate your life to becoming a world leader, or spokesman, and attempt to make changes. That goal will not be accomplished on a board full of smut peddlers.

Webby
Ya right, you must be smoking good shit. hehehe
Euro commie Union is overtaxed and their economy sucks. And That's it.

drew:

*lol*.. Oh boy.. whose ecomony sucks?? No comment needed!

I see we got the "superior intellect" at work - ie ingore the point and trash all others... sad :-)

drew:

Take em blinkers off and get *some* education - it can be useful!

whose ecomony sucks??
Maybe try Germany hehehe That commie Schroeder (not sure about spelling) dont know what to do about his nazi economy. And BTW what is Unempl.rate in Europe on average? I am sure it's a lot more than 6%.

theking:

Sadly for the US.. the UN is not "meaningless". And still yet, International law prevails - and is not based on what Bush thinks today.

Webby
Why dont you tell us what shithole you call your home.

drew:

Thery ya go again! *g*... Them blinkers are causing serious blindless! Got anything other than your "doctine" to utter?:Graucho

drew:

I live in the heart of Bagdad!:Graucho That give ya some ammunition to make still more stupid remarks? *lol*

webby common please tell me Unempl.rate in Europe?
It's a simple question for your simple mind.
And still you didnt tell me where you are from?

Our Presidency in this country is really very limited in power. A President cannot act as a dictator. We have three co-equal branches of government, as well as the will of America's citizens. No President can or would act without being in compliance with all three branches of the American government as well as having the support of America's citizens. When a President acts he has plenty of company, with or without UN approval and with, or without, being in violation of International Law. The real world does exist, even though you seem to think that it doesn't.

drew:

This simple mind cannot possibly comprehend your questions and has not got the time to waste with other simple minds.

I'm trying real hard at middle school... ya should come along with me - tis fun! *g* Bring the President along too - he would enjoy it! *lol*

theking:

I agree .. there are "barriers" to acting alone... and in the "no fly zone" stuff.. yea, it is the right thing to impose em under these cicumstances.

I have lived in the US as well.. get the "general" idea.. but seems lately all the current admin wish is to have this blank check to do *whatever*.. I just get the feeling this ain't so good for the US people, or other countries.

webby, are you ashamed of your country?
It must be, when you dont wanna tell us where you are from
BTW I lived in your Euro land. NO Thanks, not again.
EU Unites Europe with High Taxes and Red Tape.
Man, is this true? unemployment in France is 11.4 percent WOW. That's almost double than here.
What about Germany? WOW 10.7 percent unemployment.
They are rocking. You know I am glad that our economy doesnt do as well as theirs.

Average Europeans surrender 42 percent of their incomes in taxes (versus 29 percent in the US), according to Swedish Taxpayers' Association president Bjorn Tarras Wahlberg.

drew:

Asshole... countries have little to do with it... I got a brain that may be a fraction bigger than a peanut, but even that knows there is more to this world than garbage about "this country is better than that" blah...

As for taxes.. na.. I don't pay any! How much do you pay?:BangBang:

I didn't read this whole post, but to simply answer your question, it's because we give N.Korea $6,000,000,000 in free money every year, which means we can tell them what to do and when to it!
:Graucho

Webby
you dont pay taxes, I know, stupids on welfare dont pay any. Still, where are you from?
It's the third time I am asking the same question.
I am from US, I am not ashamed to say that.Now it's your turn.

Wizzo:

Add to that $6B (??) of aid the basic facilities to engage in a nuclear research program...

drew:

*lol*... Shit.. hold on I gotta hop down and collect my welfare check!

This Mika guy is really obsessed.......

Mika, can you not understand that 500 years ago the same crap existed? 2000 years ago the same crap existed.......

Those who can, impose their views. End of story. Today it is America. Yesterday it was the Soviet Union. The day before it was the Ottoman Empire, Napoleon, the Romans, Alexander the Great or Kaiser Wilhelm and Hitler ...... the British empire. The list goes on and on.

There is little doubt that America seeks to control everything.
There is little doubt that anyone else in America's position has done and will do the same.

What goes up must come down. Eventually America will fade as a global empire (the downfall is already visible). If it doesn't fall from an outside cause it will crumble from within as did the Soviets and other empires before them. So freaking what? As far as empires go, America was one of the "nicest" I thank God I lived under the American Empire and not under the Ottomans or Soviets.

You Mika, Mr. Finland over there, will have the new empire to contend with. The EU. It is all the same bullshit over and over and over and over and over......

Instead of writing your same tired crap from different angles open a fucking history book and you will see what has happened and what will happen because........ the only certain thing is, as many say, "History repeats itself."

footguy:

Agree! Tis nothing new!:thumbsup

Webby, that you are nothing more than anonymous stupid bitch from some third world country making stupid points
about US high taxes and weak US economy.

drew:

*Webby, that you are nothing more than anonymous stupid bitch from some third world country making stupid points
about US high taxes and weak US economy.*

*lol* .. There ya go still again with them blinkers and loads of assumptions! You raised some stupid comments about taxes, not me. As long as you are happy who gives a fuck? :Graucho

Common webby, tell me, you are from??
I promise I will not laugh. Or you dont have a balls?
BTW you are the one who said that US taxes are higher than EU taxes.

Drew:

Bagdad.. told ya already! :-) I just love the environment Saddam has created here... palm trees, white sandy beaches, no taxes, healthcare superior to that in almost any "civilized" country, and a *genuine* example of democracy in action with one of the most stable and peaceful governments on the planet. Ya can't beat it! *g*

We even have "escapees" from the US here and many come for some decent healthcare if that is a clue? *s*
Ideal for any webmaster that was fortunate enough not to be born a US citizen and have the IRS chasing em around the globe!
But got plenty US webmasters here as well :-)

Now.. I gotta dine! I ya *really* want to know.. I might even tell ya one day!

webby, I am not wasting more of my time on some idiot, who is ashamed to say where he lives, yet feels it's OK to attack other country on this board. I guess you dont have a balls after all.
Did you cut them off so you can fit in those tiny sexy gay looking Speedos?

drew:

Maybe you did not get the message already?... Tried to be nice but obviously your peabrain is smaller than mine.. so Go Fuck Yourself and try an enjoy it!:BangBang:

Drew

Your questions about the EU are not really relevant.....

In the UK unemployment is at 3.1%
Our economy is strong.... in the top 5 and considering our tiny country fits inside one of your states.....

Our Income tax starts at 10%... for low earners upto 22% for average salaries and upto 40% for high earners. It depends how much money you earn.

You can't take the EU as a whole as each country has an independant tax system and economy. There's a difference between a union of countries operating under seperate tax systems, you can't compare it.

DJRCyberAVS
Whatever I said about EU, I didnt mean UK.
I think UK is cool country not run by those
Euro pink commie idiots. Not yet anyway.

DJRCyberAVS:

*s* Sometimes there is a problem in what folks "want" to think than any fact :-)

Yup.. agree with you!:thumbsup

drew:

*Whatever I said about EU, I didnt mean UK.
I think UK is cool country not run by those
Euro pink commie idiots. Not yet anyway.*

Oh fuck.. I give up!! *lol* ... Got a life to lead and more relevant stuff than bother the babblings of idiots!

I'm off to see that Commie Commissar - he's got a good meal waiting! *lol*

webby, not my fault that you are stupid without the clue. EU and UK is still two things.
Yes I know they are in, but they are much different then continental Europe.
How different? Let's see, low taxes, good economy,
low unemployment and real money, not that fake Euro dollar wanna be.
Same can be said about Ireland. Maybe they are
lucky that there is awater between them and the old continent.

drew:

Give it a break and shut the fuck up!.. UK is part of the EU or is that something else that escaped you?...

I ain't responding to any more of your shit.. do some work or attend that middle school.. urgently!
:BangBang:

drew:
*. EU and UK is still two things*

That is.. according the drew! *lol*

Webby
Again it's not my fault that you are dumb fucking idiot. I know they are in, but so far they are different.