I don't like the content that Max produces, and were I a performer, I would certainly not work with Max. I'm not about to tell women which producers they can and cannot work with, however, just as I'm not about to argue that the fighters who climb into the octagon and get their brains kicked in during UFC matches need to be protected from their own judgment and decisions.

To me, it should work like this: adults of sound mind are entitled to make their own decisions, take their own risks, and face their own consequences. Those who wish to perform in Max's videos should be free to do so. Those that wish to view his videos should be free to do so.

No performer is required to work with Max, and if/when those who do work with Max feel that he has "crossed a line," then they are free to pursue criminal charges and/or civil relief accordingly. They do not need the government to intercede on their behalf in the form of an obscenity prosecution, and society at large will not crumble and fall into the sea if prosecutors choose to abstain from prosecuting producers like Max.

Do I "feel sorry" for Max? No way. He knows what the law says, knows the risks of what he's doing, and made a free and informed choice to shoot the content anyway. It's just that I think it is entirely pointless for the government to protect us from our own choices -- whether the choice is about what kind of sex to have, whom to have it with, whether or not to film that sex and distribute the resulting depictions commercially, whether to watch such videos... etc. etc.

Laws should serve a purpose; these particular obscenity laws do not, IMO.

hmm i just realized that using the 'sound mind' argument, we've just justified drug use; homeless etc

thats not what I'm saying. I'm saying as long as the acts in the movies are legal (two consenting adults, no matter how deviant or "obscene" some may find it), and there is a market for the content (obviously an attractive market), what the problem is? all the models are over the age of 18, sign the model release, consenting adults, yadda yadda yadda.

Did anyone attend the trial? Was Max not able to get the performers in to testify that everything was consensual and all acting?

spelled out into words, most of that is pretty common to a degree, maybe not all in one scene though....... using those descriptions as a guideline starts a pretty slippery slope of censorship I think :2 cents: and the 'please stop' thing pretty much describes 99% of japanese content I think

I didn't attend the trial, but there are pretty detailed articles about the trial on both XBIZ and AVN. Summer Luv (retired performer) testified for the defense, and it was made clear to the jury that it was all consensual.

Consent is not really a factor in obscenity trials, generally. If the issue was that the sex was non-consensual, and the government had evidence showing that and witnesses willing to testify to that effect, then presumably Max would have been charged with sexual assault, as well.

that design is obscene

:helpme

Lotsa laws exist to control the things consenting adults want to do.

what are the things Max is filming that breaks any laws?

Its up to a jury to decide whether it breaks obscenity laws, and I think thats bullshit.

I don't care for what he does, its not erotic or a turn on to me at all, but far be it from me to say he can't film that stuff provided the models agree to it and nothing illegal is going on.

The difference between porn producing, drug use, and homelessness is that you don't create problems for society through porn. Homeless people irritate you on the street and druggies can incapacitate themselves to the point of uselessness where they just leach off of the system somehow some way. Shitting porn has never asked me for change, nor is it fueling organized crime and keeping people from holding down a job. Of course I'm not all that opposed to drug use in the first place, so long as we have work camps for people who want to descend into massive abuse so they can support their own habit and stay off the streets.
Consenting adults of sound mind doesn't include activities that worsen the lives of nonconsenting people. Porn creates jobs and stimulates the economy. Therefore it must be good.

Why the girls did not walk out is not the issue. The issue is whether what he did is obscene? I don't think paying someone gives you the right to abuse them.

"According to the complaint, in the works there are explicit depictions of gagging, coughing, the expulsion of fluid from the mouth, crying, forceful face-fucking by grabbing a female?s hair, anal intromission of tubes, vaginal intromission of straws, use of straw to suck vaginal fluid contents, auto-felching, continuing sexually after a performer?s request to ?please stop?, and pig-tailed performers dressed in a pre adolescent fashion being picked up at a playground and used sexually..."

Now consider this. A person pays another person money to abuse them on film to publish. The abuse includes pouring urine and vomit into the model's mouth, forcing an object down the model's throat, while holding the model's hair and using force, so far he or she gags and vomits, slapping the model so hard they cry and carrying on the abuse after the model has asked them to stop.

Should that be legal or not?

Take out the porn element and leave only the abuse. do you consider this is something you think assault and abuse should be covered under the Freedom of Speech rights? Or do you think if you include the porn element it allows you to abuse and assault someone?

Did the jury find the abuse obscene or the porn?

Quote of the week ;)
I wonder how many people missed this :D

I think maybe you aren't considering that a LOT of people like to be what you call "abused". To them it isn't abuse at all. And yes...the crying and begging is all part of the sexual turn on for the person that you think is being "abused" I know it sounds crazy but it's true. Max's shit is nasty to ME. But that doesn't mean it's not an incredible turn on for both doms and subs. And basically that's what we're looking at there.
It's nothing more than light domination and subbing without the bondage and extreme S&M that is found on thousands of websites.
I was just at a swinger party that was held in Atlanta...but it wasn't the "normal" swingers party. This one was in a "dungeon" and full of people in the BDSM lifestyle.
There were men hung in the air being beaten by their women and vice-versa. Lots of crying, lots or very REAL pain, a lot of hyperventilating on the ground once the people were let free of their shackles.
Shit was INSANE...to ME. But to these people it was "normal" and in the violence + sex category it makes Max look like a boy scout.
I talked to these people afterwards, and you know what? They are just normal everyday people all week long. One of them was a school teacher!
None of them were "freaky" or had a shit load of piercings or anything and the age group was mostly mid 50's (which made looking at it that much more "ugghhh")
If I had whipped out a video camera and filmed it...I'm guessing that those jurists in Tampa would have convicted me too.
So in closing...I think you guys need to realize we are in the FANTASY business. What a guy like you or me looks at as "abuse" to a woman...is the exact thing that makes that woman have an orgasm when it's being done to them.
And yes...some women DO like to have a person piss in their mouths. I've met them. I didn't piss in their mouths...and I damn sure wasn't gonna kiss 'em LOL, but their are PLENTY of them out there.
And they aren't gonna come on here and proclaim that they like it.
But they are there. And the tears and shit in Max's movie? Again, I'm telling you that you're judging a sex act without understanding it.
I am at the point in life where I'm not interested in judging what does or does not turn people on. It's none of my fucking business. But the girls in Max's films don't show up there JUST for the money. Oh, they definitely do it for the money...but they also do it because it is their specialty to be gagged on cock and vomit and to drink piss.
If you don't believe me, then you need to get out more and see more things because it's true.

why are people debating this shit - OBSCENITY LAWS ARE NOT NEW!!!

move to another country, obscenity laws have withstood constitutional challenges - there is nothing to debate here. move to a country that doesn't have obscenity laws - good luck finding one!

Now, how would My stuff be anything like Max's? I don't have models that look or pretend to be underage. In my video everyone is clearly having fun and enjoying what they are doing. In my a lot of my video the model is talking directly to you explaining how things are done, how they feel and how much they are enjoying it. In my video the models are not be degraded. etc etc.

Those girls crying is not fantasy your not dealing with Meryl Streep here its a porn model. Just because a girl gets paid it doesn't mean its her thing and considering the number of girls Max has shot and the small small percentage of people who are actually into extreme behavior of max's degree.I highly doubt they were all just having a party,they were paying the rent.

would 12 jurors agree ?

Who knows. I don't see how someone can tell what 12 random people are going to say about anything.

The hardest thing on my site is the fisting. I don't do simulated rape, drugs, pissing, Face fulls of cum etc.

There is a reason the people I work with and have worked with continue to work with me. I treat the people I work with with respect and I don't try to push someone's limits. I have models that have worked on and off with me for the last 6 years... THAT says a lot.

I also try to present the stuff on my site as something fun. I want the people in my videos having fun. At the end of a shoot when everyone can kick back and laugh about the shoot and talk about what a crazy time it was or how they look forward to the next shoot... THAT says a lot.

Another thing that I have never done is VHS or DVD etc. My stuff is only available via the web. Not that that seems to matter anymore... but I always tried to respect the laws about shipping porn etc.

If there where a solid, in writing set of rules as to what can and can not be shot I would follow them without question. But, that just does not exist.

It is worth debating the fact that that the obscenity laws such as they are, are not only un-American but patently unfair and that the application of them is even more ridiculous.

Whether it was consensual or nor wasn't an issue, obscenity was, and the Feds chose a location for the trial where the material most likely would be viewed as "obscene". That's called "jury shopping". It HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OBSCENE, it has something to do WHAT SOMEBODY IN BUM FUCK IDAHO or wherever CONSIDERS to be obscene.

http://www.bartcopnation.com/dc/dcbo...8&topic_id=522

The case has an even scarier element to it than simple obscenity. One count was using a computer to distribute obscene material. Now, anybody who has ever uploaded a photo from a computer to the internet and got directly or indirectly paid has used a computer to distribute obscene material. If this verdict holds up in appeal some people in the US are going to have a big problem.

Also, server location was an issue, which is total bogus, but so are many things in this country. (Good thing Jenny rents out NL and DE based servers for a competitive price! Hint, hint! )

actually they were able to get a win in a pretty open minded place because it was so over the top,there are over 6 dozen adult video stores in tampa.

Fuck, I posted the wrong link, here is the right one

http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/6/d..._is_obscene _

And isn't it kind of Ironic that the same administration and DoJ that wants to crack down on the likes of Max Hardcore has gone out of their way to redefine torture so that things like waterboarding, etc are ok?

Jeff,
You?re a fucking moron and need to just go jump off a bridge. Shut your mouth and stop stirring the pot you fucking rip off artist
:thefinger

who the fuck are you?

Gee, might this be Donny Long? Fuck you. I don't even know you.

Must be another of my obsessed industry wannabe's just envious I guess... Who the fuck knows? And what exactly did I rip off? Exactly... fuck you.

Well, Jeff, I don't know you... yet you felt it was a smart thing to put my Site at the top of your list... Thanks.

I wrote clearly that the sites I listed are simply random selections to continue this very important debate. I also don't know you and certainly had no desire to single anyone out.

The greatest thing about forums like GFY is the free flow of ideas and open debate. It's simply a question... If Max got convicted, then that seems to lower the bar. Who is next? What types of content will the DOJ go after now?

I'm a huge supporter of free speech rights and think obscenity laws are unconstitutional. It's the only law that is purely subjective.

Rock on extremehole.com, I wish you nothing but the best and all the success in the world. Your site rocks.

This thread has shown how seriously worried some ppl are about the precident this case makes and how it affects them.

There is nothing wrong with a good debate.

I agree debate is good... BUT what was the reason to start tossing names. You don't think this board is read by the DOJ? Nothing like giving them targets for no reason. there are others on here that I'm sure would not want there sites plastered all over this "debate" in name.

(by the way, you link to your site in your signature. What is the difference?)

Hang on a minute... as if I am the only source that the DOJ needs to locate your sites? They can't find it without this thread?

Another site owner had GFY remove their site from my random list. Which says one thing... people are seriously worried. And that means that this case has a clear impact on free speech, especially sexual expressions.

This is my entire point. This is a big case and all the posts, save for the blatent personal attacks and name calling, are good posts with lots of valid points.

I don't even remember how I stumbled upon your particular site. I just thought it was a good example of what everyone is talking about and it relates directly to the discussion. If I didn't start a thread like this I'm certain someone else would have.

Am I the key to the DOJ finding sites? Maybe I should get hired by the FBI. Or maybe I already work for them? JK.

It seems absurd to fault me for simply listing random sites as examples for this very important adult industry debate.

orgish doesn't involves penises going into vaginas or anuses. Appeantly that matters.

as soon as I saw extremehole on the list, I knew dude was about to get flamed because I've seen the hole guy in here before and I know that he's very passionate about his site.

Jeff is a retard and a rat and a lot of people know it. Not his fault he was born like that.

Is that the best you can do? Fucking coward. Hiding behind a fucking anonymous nick. It's easy to talk shit when you're being anonymous. Everyone knows me and knows I'm a stand-up guy, so your childish rants bother me not. Keep it coming. Coward.

awww are your panties getting in a bunch? :1orglaugh

But is it a good example? There are many fisting sites. Some bigger some smaller... but in what what do they fit with what Max was nailed on? I guess with your logic, you could have listed any sites where guys gum on girls faces, Maybe some tranny fucking sites. What about all the Domination and bondage sites, The Beast sites. The Gay fisting sites and the list goes on an on.

I'm glad that my site made enough impression on you that you remembered me, but come on... exactly how to you see my site relating to the stuff Max was shooting and busted on in anyway?

Not in the least. Your posts only reveal your own shortcomings and insecurities.

I don't know who you are and don't care, but I do know that anonymous insults are the sanctuary of cowards. So kindly, fuck off.

And I should be. Do you know that Extremehole is my only site? Did you know that I came into this business from nothing, with no experience, no contacts and literally owned a 400 dollar computer and 150 dollar camera? I'm one of the last examples of the "little" guy actually making something that worked.

Did you also know that to my (ex) wife and I, nothing on our site was really that out there? It was really who we where and how we lived in real life. I had fun building the site and learning as I went. I've had the pleasure to shoot with a LOT of people over the years and have seriously enjoyed all of it.

I'm not a team of people... or a large company or mister deep pockets... I'm just 1 guy. Everything that has been done to build the site, from the shooting to the building to the running of it is just me.

I'm not ashamed to point the site out to anyone, but it does burn me when the "obscenity" talk starts and automatically someone thinks to lump me into it.

I hear what you are saying. I listed your site totally at random.

But what about your signature? You link to it yourself. What is the difference? Just making a point.

Yes I could have listed any one of hundreds or thousands of other sites. Which is why I started my thread by stating that the sites listed are simply random examples for this debate.

From my point of view, this moral crusade, and that's what it is, is a disgrace and is fueled by the religious right just as it was in the 70's. They are trying to impose their view of morality on the entire country. And that's not freedom. That can't be what all those who have fought and died in wars defending America died for. They sacrificed so that we can enjoy our freedoms. Freedoms!

There was a GREAT study done by the Stanford School of Law, there was a link to it from the FSC site a while back not sure if it's still there, but the findings of the study showed that as internet use went up in specific geographic areas, the number of sexual crimes went down. That makes total sense.

And what about the 1968 Presidential report on pornography? It found that not only was porn not bad, but it was actually beneficial and healthy in many cases. But the administration buried the findings. This was the only scientific study commissioned by the government to see what the effects of porn were. They buried it because it didn't conclude what they wanted. And they went ahead with their crack down anyway.

And the Meese Commission report wasn't even a scientific study, that report was based soley on testimony by a hand picked group of right wingers. 2257 came out of that.

There has to be some way to stand up for our rights. Shit, I would even settle for them being specific about what is and isn't obscene.

You know how you know you're speeding? Cause the sign says what the limit is.

No one knows if they've broken obscenity laws until a jury says so. How can that be constitutional?

We have much in common.

Any you know, I totally understand and agree with what your saying. I have been saying a lot of this for years on here and on other sites. Yes, I do link to my site. I want people to find it and enjoy it. But I don't link to it stating it's obscene. Somewhere my site, along with the others you listed seemed to strike a cord in you that was strong enough for you to think of listing it. I was just trying to understand what that cord might have been in your thoughts. You in this business, your a shooter and I have to say that I find that point of view interesting.

Also, I never meant to imply that ANY of those sites were obscene. I posed a question. And I think a good question at that.

What exactly is the point of view that you are referring to?

Hit me up on ICQ please. 130284355

I feel you and all I can say is: This guy is a asshole and a bunch of people hate him. This is what happens when people that have money that they did not work hard for enter the industry with very little knowledge of the biz. They hire people to build them stuff and piss off a bunch of peeps and run their mouth to much.

Funny thing is I see after he ran his mouth about Donny Long and got him ban he went on to open
Exclusive content production - www.WeShootContent.com and
Need music? We make it and sell it. www.AdultIndustryMusic.com
Trying to do what Donny does best but is still failing while Donny is shooting everyday :1orglaugh

This post goes to show you know nothing absolutely about me. LOL. Bite me.
So Mr. tough guy, why you posting anonymously? Coward. Let's see if you have the balls to reveal yourself. Probably not though. Nothing worse than a coward.

Um, I've been shooting content for 8 years. LOL...

Well, at least you're good for a laugh.

Donny got himself banned. I had nothing to do with it. Fuck man. Twisting the facts and shit. Show me where I bad mouthed Donny Long. One instance. And I'll apologize.

DonnyLongProductions.com - created Aug 2007
WeShootContent.com - created May 2006

oops try again...

What I find kind of funny is that the only few differences between his videos and say fear factor is sex, and the use of human sperm. Ok there is some fantasy acting but who cares about that really.

I could make you suck whale sperm with a straw and its fine.
I could make you eat sheep balls until you puke and its fine and hell I will even supply a puke bucket.
I can have others or myself make fake puking noises to try to encourage you to puke.
I can have you freeze your sack off just for shits and giggles.
I can make you crash a car.
I can have to try to walk across something and get your nads crushed.
I can place you in full on bondage and bury you with creatures of your worst psychological fear and force your partner to perform a task to help you escape.
I can do all that and much more and not even pay you for it however I can not have sex involved.

arnt these grey lines fun.