Europeans .... from an American point of view - GoFuckYourself.com

pimplink · 10-13-2002, 08:41 PM

From Plastic.Com
================

Why there will NEVER be a United States of Europe

I think it's clear that how each European country views the prospect of a united Europe is controlled by the history of their power as influencers of Europe in the past. Byatt notes the hesitation of the Norwegians to identify with Europe. Well, that's hardly surprising. Denmark and Sweden took turns ruling them for almost all of their history as a nation. Norwegians have a complex about their national identity as a result. Much worse than Canada in relation to the US, because Canadians don't have to endure Americans telling them that we gave them their ability to read and write, which is what the Danes tell the Norwegians.

France, on the other hand, is very enthusiastic about Europe because it sees the EU as the newest vehicle through which it can gratify its dreams of political hegemony. The French have always seen themselves as the true rulers of Europe, though, with the significant exception of Napoleon, they have had zero success at realizing that dream. They are also smart enough to know that their ability to influence the world merely as France ended at Suez - crushed at the hands of the United States. So they have conceptualized the EU as the new vessel for the expression of French power. Their Josef Conradian empire in west Africa is small consolation for those ambitions.

The English and Spanish are ambivalent because they see themselves as part of a wider world, and one that they helped make. Unlike the French, both England and Spain actually had the experience of ruling a huge chunk of the world, and so their amibitions remain turned in that direction. The so-called "anglosphere" of Canada, America, Australia, New Zealand and India beckons the English with an air of familiarity that they rarely feel in Europe proper. Likewise for the Spanish. Europe is to them actually an afterthought, as they have often been to Europe.

Add to this the xenophobia inherent in social democratic societies, and it seems that the formation of a unified European identity is far-fetched. Rather, what we will see is a unified administrative entity that is used, in succession, by a variety of thinly-veiled national agendas. We already see in the budget process that the old powers of Europe will simply refuse to honor their EU commitments when it conflicts with their national interests (as France has recently done with respect to EU limits on its budget deficit.).

The US has such a strong national identity because it was formed by people who were consciously, actively forsaking their old one. This is not the case of the EU, where the task is to somehow integrate a dizzying array of ancient national identities into one super-identity. It can only fail.

But that does not mean the EU will fail, or that it is a bad thing. It just won't be a United States of Europe. Indeed, one wonders if its formation does not herald an era of quiescence and introspection for Europe on the world stage, as it turns more and more inward on itself and its own dilemmas of identity. In that respect, the formation of the EU may in fact strengthen the ascendancy of the US and China as the powers of the 21st century, both countries unfettered by such preoccupations.

cream · 10-13-2002, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pimplink
... In that respect, the formation of the EU may in fact strengthen the ascendancy of the US and China as the powers of the 21st century, both countries unfettered by such preoccupations.

China is rising.

USA is falling.

Swap · 10-13-2002, 08:57 PM

The US is not the role model for Europeans... The EU will become a "superpower" in many areas, but never a "united nation".
Anyway in the year 2200 there will probably be more people calling themself "world citizen", than citizen of a specific country... National identity is not very old, when you look in the world history, and it will probably be unnecessary as humanity evolves.

Webby · 10-13-2002, 09:06 PM

*there will NEVER be a United States of Europe *

Thank God and it suits me just nice! :-)

[Labret] · 10-13-2002, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Swap

Anyway in the year 2200 there will probably be more people calling themself "world citizen", than citizen of a specific country... National identity is not very old, when you look in the world history, and it will probably be unnecessary as humanity evolves.

Bullshit.

cream · 10-13-2002, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by [Labret]

Bullshit.

$10 says it WILL happen like he says

But if I'm wrong, please come and collect your winnings. With interest if you like.

[Labret] · 10-13-2002, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cream

$10 says it WILL happen like he says

But if I'm wrong, please come and collect your winnings. With interest if you like.

"national identity" is as old as written history. So to say nationalistic feelings are not old is absurd. Oral traditions also pass it down. It is as old as man itself. If not at a state level, it functioned at a village and cultural level. That is not going away.

As if the ENTIRE world would ever allow itself to be governed by a single governing body. Puh lease. Take your hippy utopia bullshit and ram it up your granola eating ass.

Swap · 10-13-2002, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by [Labret]

Bullshit.

How many people thought of themself as Europeans 200 years ago - how many does today?

I know it sucks to hear that someday no one will care about your national anthem, but thats just the way things go...

cream · 10-13-2002, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by [Labret]

"national identity" is as old as written history. So to say nationalistic feelings are not old is absurd. Oral traditions also pass it down. It is as old as man itself. If not at a state level, it functioned at a village and cultural level. That is not going away.

As if the ENTIRE world would ever allow itself to be governed by a single governing body. Puh lease. Take your hippy utopia bullshit and ram it up your granola eating ass.

We'll still have identities -- it will just be us against those fuckers on Mars. Don't even get me started on them...

We keep fucking like we do ... we're going to run out of room ... unless we start a REALLY big war

Hmm, perhaps that's the master plan for Iraq

[Labret] · 10-13-2002, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Swap

How many people thought of themself as Europeans 200 years ago - how many does today?

Thats it? Thats your argument?

Borders change, bfd.

Remember why the EU was formed in the first place. To compete with the USA.

Even then, you are not all happy about it. Nationalism is alive and well all throughout Europe. You are all always whing about each other and crying about who should get let into your little EU club and who does not.

And after the EU fails all it will do is further fuel the fires of nationalism. Nationalism will never die.

Quote:

I know it sucks to hear that someday no one will care about your national anthem, but thats just the way things go...

Nations rise, nations fall. I graduated high school, tell me something I didnt learn in 9th grade Franco.

Swap · 10-13-2002, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by [Labret]

As if the ENTIRE world would ever allow itself to be governed by a single governing body. Puh lease. Take your hippy utopia bullshit and ram it up your granola eating ass.

Who says we will need to be governed at that time? You are forgetting about evolution and how fast it works.

Yourself = Important (can´t chance who you are)
Your Family = Important (they got you back no matter what)
Your City = Somewhat important (but you could always move)
Your Country = Less important (most of the time run by idiots)

Which one do you think has most chance of survival when man evolves and demands more freedom? And which ones keeps you trap and exploits you? You could make the choice today (do not have to wait 200 years to be free), but I bet they will do anything in their power to keep you, and use you for their own gains... thats why they will be extinct in 2200...

pimplink · 10-13-2002, 09:41 PM

Swap,

Good delineation of the ever decreasing circles of concern that radiate out from the SELF.

But here's a question: Do you think that if individuals focused to closely on how best to serve their families and their local communities [read: tribalism/regionalism] that national markets/national legal structures suffer?

This played out in the Caucasus, in Lebanon [after 1975], definitely in Africa, and in some parts of Burma/Myanmar.

Quote:

Originally posted by Swap

Who says we will need to be governed at that time? You are forgetting about evolution and how fast it works.

Yourself = Important (can´t chance who you are)
Your Family = Important (they got you back no matter what)
Your City = Somewhat important (but you could always move)
Your Country = Less important (most of the time run by idiots)

Which one do you think has most chance of survival when man evolves and demands more freedom? And which ones keeps you trap and exploits you? You could make the choice today (do not have to wait 200 years to be free), but I bet they will do anything in their power to keep you, and use you for their own gains... thats why they will be extinct in 2200...

Joe Sixpack · 10-13-2002, 09:58 PM

A persons social class has more to do with who they are than nationality or race.

[Labret] · 10-13-2002, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Swap

And which ones keeps you trap and exploits you? You could make the choice today (do not have to wait 200 years to be free), but I bet they will do anything in their power to keep you, and use you for their own gains... thats why they will be extinct in 2200...

Oh cmon, just come out and say "the Jews", Hitler.

Swap · 10-14-2002, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by [Labret]

Oh cmon, just come out and say "the Jews", Hitler.

Oh so you turn your argumentation to name calling... Just because you use arguments as a 7 year old would use, then it doesn´t make you look bad............. nope - not at all

funkmaster · 10-14-2002, 11:54 AM

... hahaha, it´s always the same how " my country is better than your country" threads end up .. so predictable ...

Sly_RJ · 10-14-2002, 11:58 AM

Oh Christ, I see this thread leading towards a global government. Bull shit.

Go get 'em, Labret.

Swap · 10-14-2002, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pimplink
Swap,

But here's a question: Do you think that if individuals focused to closely on how best to serve their families and their local communities [read: tribalism/regionalism] that national markets/national legal structures suffer?

Already today many people find more incommon with people in the same work area or who share the same philosophy, than people from their own country. Does this mean that the national structures/markets suffer... yes I belive so, but it doesn´t mean that the world will become "smaller" - instead there will be more options for everyone and freedom too choose these options.

Swap · 10-14-2002, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sly_RJ
Oh Christ, I see this thread leading towards a global government. Bull shit.

Go get 'em, Labret.

Who wants to replace the tyrants with new tyrants? World goverment will not happen in the shape or form you think of it...

Ron2k1 · 10-14-2002, 12:47 PM

This year 12 countries of the European Monetary Union decided to replace their own national currency for a european coin called the 'euro'.

Nobody could ever expect that to happen 50 years ago.

So you never know what will happen in the European Union in the next 50 years

KingK7 · 10-14-2002, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pimplink
Byatt notes the hesitation of the Norwegians to identify with Europe. Well, that's hardly surprising. Denmark and Sweden took turns ruling them for almost all of their history as a nation. Norwegians have a complex about their national identity as a result. Much worse than Canada in relation to the US, because Canadians don't have to endure Americans telling them that we gave them their ability to read and write, which is what the Danes tell the Norwegians.

The Danes suck. Those bastards are sorry they let us go now that we have all the oil and money in the world. All they got was fucking Greenland.

We might just buy Denmark and Sweden, I am thinking turning Sweden into a parking lot, and Denmark into a cotton plantation.
They may stay on to work as valet parkers or cotton pickers if they want though.

insidethegame · 10-14-2002, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron2k1
This year 12 countries of the European Monetary Union decided to replace their own national currency for a european coin called the 'euro'.

Nobody could ever expect that to happen 50 years ago.

So you never know what will happen in the European Union in the next 50 years

Oh yes we do? they will quarrel and squabble over the stupidest things...all revolving around some dopey socialist idea and they will FAIL MISSERABLY!;)

clickpimp · 10-14-2002, 01:06 PM

Look, once more people actually attend Starfleet Academy, more will come to know and respect the Federation.

10-13-2002, 08:41 PM	#1
pimplink Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Closer than you think Posts: 9,535	Europeans .... from an American point of view From Plastic.Com ================ Why there will NEVER be a United States of Europe I think it's clear that how each European country views the prospect of a united Europe is controlled by the history of their power as influencers of Europe in the past. Byatt notes the hesitation of the Norwegians to identify with Europe. Well, that's hardly surprising. Denmark and Sweden took turns ruling them for almost all of their history as a nation. Norwegians have a complex about their national identity as a result. Much worse than Canada in relation to the US, because Canadians don't have to endure Americans telling them that we gave them their ability to read and write, which is what the Danes tell the Norwegians. France, on the other hand, is very enthusiastic about Europe because it sees the EU as the newest vehicle through which it can gratify its dreams of political hegemony. The French have always seen themselves as the true rulers of Europe, though, with the significant exception of Napoleon, they have had zero success at realizing that dream. They are also smart enough to know that their ability to influence the world merely as France ended at Suez - crushed at the hands of the United States. So they have conceptualized the EU as the new vessel for the expression of French power. Their Josef Conradian empire in west Africa is small consolation for those ambitions. The English and Spanish are ambivalent because they see themselves as part of a wider world, and one that they helped make. Unlike the French, both England and Spain actually had the experience of ruling a huge chunk of the world, and so their amibitions remain turned in that direction. The so-called "anglosphere" of Canada, America, Australia, New Zealand and India beckons the English with an air of familiarity that they rarely feel in Europe proper. Likewise for the Spanish. Europe is to them actually an afterthought, as they have often been to Europe. Add to this the xenophobia inherent in social democratic societies, and it seems that the formation of a unified European identity is far-fetched. Rather, what we will see is a unified administrative entity that is used, in succession, by a variety of thinly-veiled national agendas. We already see in the budget process that the old powers of Europe will simply refuse to honor their EU commitments when it conflicts with their national interests (as France has recently done with respect to EU limits on its budget deficit.). The US has such a strong national identity because it was formed by people who were consciously, actively forsaking their old one. This is not the case of the EU, where the task is to somehow integrate a dizzying array of ancient national identities into one super-identity. It can only fail. But that does not mean the EU will fail, or that it is a bad thing. It just won't be a United States of Europe. Indeed, one wonders if its formation does not herald an era of quiescence and introspection for Europe on the world stage, as it turns more and more inward on itself and its own dilemmas of identity. In that respect, the formation of the EU may in fact strengthen the ascendancy of the US and China as the powers of the 21st century, both countries unfettered by such preoccupations.

10-14-2002, 11:58 AM	#17
Sly_RJ Live Hard - Die Hard Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ready to leave... Posts: 17,042	Oh Christ, I see this thread leading towards a global government. Bull shit. Go get 'em, Labret. __________________ PHAT SERVERS - Quality dedicated hosting at a quality price! sly AT phatservers DOT com - 147479144

10-13-2002, 08:57 PM	#3
Swap Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25	The US is not the role model for Europeans... The EU will become a "superpower" in many areas, but never a "united nation". Anyway in the year 2200 there will probably be more people calling themself "world citizen", than citizen of a specific country... National identity is not very old, when you look in the world history, and it will probably be unnecessary as humanity evolves.

10-13-2002, 09:06 PM	#4
Webby Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Far far away - as possible Posts: 14,956	there will NEVER be a United States of Europe Thank God and it suits me just nice! :-)

10-13-2002, 09:58 PM	#13
Joe Sixpack So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 3,793	A persons social class has more to do with who they are than nationality or race.

10-14-2002, 11:54 AM	#16
funkmaster So Fucking Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: shell beach Posts: 7,938	... hahaha, it´s always the same how " my country is better than your country" threads end up .. so predictable ...

10-14-2002, 12:47 PM	#20
Ron2k1 Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,573	This year 12 countries of the European Monetary Union decided to replace their own national currency for a european coin called the 'euro'. Nobody could ever expect that to happen 50 years ago. So you never know what will happen in the European Union in the next 50 years

10-14-2002, 01:06 PM	#23
clickpimp Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,159	Look, once more people actually attend Starfleet Academy, more will come to know and respect the Federation.