Additional Info about this Visa crap - GoFuckYourself.com

AnnihilaT · 10-11-2002, 10:48 PM

Hi,

Im new to this board so set your phasers to stun, please.

Im looking for some feedback on some info and ideas we are working on right now.

Im real interested in who read this article and what everybody's take on it is.

http://www.avnonline.com/issues/2002...002_lead.shtml

There werent many reponses to the the last post about this article by a different poster and im just curious if not many of you read it all the way thru or what.

According to the article in the link above a "presence in the country of your IPSP" has been clarified by VISA to mean that you must have a physical location and staff in the USA. This means to me that any foreign operation currently processing with ccbill, ibill, epoch and others will lose all their rebills from Nov. 1 forward unless they can get a US corporation, a building, and some staff over there before the 24th of Oct. (the deadline for completing the registration process). Am I misunderstanding this? Why does it seem that not many of you are very concerned about this?

I just learned yesterday (from a european processor) that all the big processors have known about this for at least 6 months and still waited till the last minute to let us know leaving us with few weeks to explore our options and figure out what we want to do. I also find it very strange that all the "big guys" got together and released a joint statement. Smells funny to me...one can come to their own conclusions what this implies.

I think the following might be interesting information for some of you as well:

Any processor you use now MUST release to you a list of your clients and their payment info on request. This to me is significant because if you have a merchant account already(european based) and decent software to process your transactions, it becomes trivial to import the payment info of your current EPOCH(for example) clients into your own database and begin processing your own rebills.

Stay tuned on this. Im looking at the feasibilty of having a system ready for this very thing before the registration deadlines at which point I would be willing to consider processing rebills for anyone switching to a european biller and wanting to migrate their US based rebills without paying the 750 and going thru the process of releasing every last detail about themselves to Visa, IRS, US GOV, and who knows who else.

Anyone would have any interest in something like this?

pr0 · 10-11-2002, 10:54 PM

AnnihilaT · 10-11-2002, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pr0

??? :/

clarification?

psyko514 · 10-11-2002, 10:58 PM

he's shooting you cause this topic has already been covered, and your link has been posted several times.

pr0 · 10-11-2002, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514
he's shooting you cause this topic has already been covered, and your link has been posted several times.

thank you

AnnihilaT · 10-11-2002, 11:02 PM

my apologies then...as i said im new to the board and havent been able to read everything and what i have seen covering this hasnt mentioned the option of taking your rebills with you from another processor to a new one or your own. Has it been mentioned already ?

quiet · 10-11-2002, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnihilaT
my apologies then...as i said im new to the board and havent been able to read everything and what i have seen covering this hasnt mentioned the option of taking your rebills with you from another processor to a new one or your own. Has it been mentioned already ?

a hundred times. you can not 'move' your rebills. the members would need to be canceled, and then sign up under your new processor.

it sucks very large donkey balls.

pr0 · 10-11-2002, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnihilaT
my apologies then...as i said im new to the board and havent been able to read everything and what i have seen covering this hasnt mentioned the option of taking your rebills with you from another processor to a new one or your own. Has it been mentioned already ?

It's ok im pretty high tonight so i'll let it slide

welcome to the board brutha

AnnihilaT · 10-11-2002, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by quiet

a hundred times. you can not 'move' your rebills. the members would need to be canceled, and then sign up under your new processor.

it sucks very large donkey balls.

Where do you get this information? I agree that you probably wont find a processor to "move" them for you BUT if you are doing your own processing and have a list of all current subscribers and their payment info then why couldnt you process them. From what i understand, they will all be canceled anyway if you choose not to complete the registration process by Oct 24th. Nov 1 comes and the US based biller simply doesnt send any more rebills to the auth bank.

where am i wrong?

AnnihilaT · 10-11-2002, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pr0

It's ok im pretty high tonight so i'll let it slide

welcome to the board brutha

thanks, man ;)

quiet · 10-11-2002, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnihilaT

Where do you get this information? I agree that you probably wont find a processor to "move" them for you BUT if you are doing your own processing and have a list of all current subscribers and their payment info then why couldnt you process them. From what i understand, they will all be canceled anyway if you choose not to complete the registration process by Oct 24th. Nov 1 comes and the US based biller simply doesnt send any more rebills to the auth bank.

where am i wrong?

what the hell are you talking about? you can't move rebills. they belong to the processor, not you. end of story. email any of the 3 party processors and ask lol.

i have over 12000 monthly rebills with ibill. they can not be moved - or i'd be moving them.

Shoplifter · 10-11-2002, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnihilaT

According to the article in the link above a "presence in the country of your IPSP" has been clarified by VISA to mean that you must have a physical location and staff in the USA.

This has not been clarified in any way. Considering that most operations are single proprietor the notion of staff is absurd.

I have a USA corp and I contract "staff" for the services I need in several physical locations. If Visa expects you to have your servers at your registered address someone is not thinking clearly.

AnnihilaT · 10-11-2002, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by quiet

what the hell are you talking about? you can't move rebills. they belong to the processor, not you. end of story. email any of the 3 party processors and ask lol.

i have over 12000 monthly rebills with ibill. they can not be moved - or i'd be moving them.

You are misinformed as most ppl are. They are YOUR CLIENTS. Not Ibills nor anyone else. They will certainly tell you that they cant give you the info when you call but informing them that they will be hearing from your attorneys will change their tone. The information is yours, man. You have just authorized them to hang on to it for you. I know 2 people here in .EU that have gotten their rebills list from IBILL with all relevant payment info already. Of Course they will tell you they cant give it to you. Those rebills are their bread and butter. Call your attorney have him draft a letter if they dont respond to you with verbal arm twisting. It can be done.

psyko514 · 10-11-2002, 11:34 PM

12000 rebills... holy fucking shit... that's for how many sites?

at $20 a rebill, minus 15% commission, that's about 200k a month. (i used guesstimated round figures to make the calculation easier)

wow.

AnnihilaT · 10-11-2002, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shoplifter

This has not been clarified in any way. Considering that most operations are single proprietor the notion of staff is absurd.

Or in my case I contract for services, so where is my staff?

If Visa expects you to have your servers at your registered address someone is not thinking clearly.

Ok you are right in a sense. I guess according to the article which i quote below, they have not yet clarified what they mean by staff. But the logical deduction would be that if you are a staff of one then YOU would have to be located in the USA. right?

(We have since been told that VISA has clarified its "presence" requirement to mean that all companies must actually have staff in the United States, though VISA has not yet confirmed this to us, or explained what exactly constitutes a "staff.")

btw, the your servers are not considered staff so it's irrelevant where they are located.

AnnihilaT · 10-11-2002, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514
12000 rebills... holy fucking shit... that's for how many sites?

at $20 a rebill, minus 15% commission, that's about 200k a month. (i used guesstimated round figures to make the calculation easier)

wow.

Yes. Thats why this is a major issue for so many of us. when i have thousands of rebills to consider it kinda limits the idea of moving to another country unless you can take those rebills with you and I beleive that you most certainly can i you put the effort and money into it.

btw, we arent all on 15% commission and some of us charge $40 per rebill. ;)

The Machine · 10-11-2002, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnihilaT

You are misinformed as most ppl are. They are YOUR CLIENTS. Not Ibills nor anyone else. They will certainly tell you that they cant give you the info when you call but informing them that they will be hearing from your attorneys will change their tone. The information is yours, man. You have just authorized them to hang on to it for you. I know 2 people here in .EU that have gotten their rebills list from IBILL with all relevant payment info already. Of Course they will tell you they cant give it to you. Those rebills are their bread and butter. Call your attorney have him draft a letter if they dont respond to you with verbal arm twisting. It can be done.

hmm...interesting.

psyko514 · 10-12-2002, 12:01 AM

i know that... i was just saying average prices...
at that volume, the commission is obviously lower. and if your rebilling at $40, then that's well over 400k a month, which is well over 3.6mil a year, which is well over the amount of cash i'll see in my lifetime.

and i'm only 12.

AnnihilaT · 10-12-2002, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Machine

hmm...interesting.

so perhaps this thread wasnt so useless after all? <g>

The Machine · 10-12-2002, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnihilaT

so perhaps this thread wasnt so useless after all? <g>

if you're right, this could be huge. if you're right...

Shoplifter · 10-12-2002, 12:16 AM

I wonder, if it is clear that you are going to go down and that you have no alternatives would your processor release your user database as a courtesy?

AnnihilaT · 10-12-2002, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Machine

if you're right, this could be huge. if you're right...

Yuh well...you gotta remember when you are large and have your own account manager at a biller then they make a commision from your volume as well and of course they want to keep those rebills and will tell you..."Oh no! Thats impossible!" But....these are your customers. You didnt "refer" them to ibill and take some kind of commission on the sale. You allowed Ibill to process the transaction and gave THEM a commision on the sale.

Anyone seriously interested in doing this and needing someone that can process the rebills they "take" from their old processor...please email me. Lets talk. I dont want to be a primary biller but i think i can run your rebills and at a MUCH better rate.

AnnihilaT · 10-12-2002, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shoplifter
I wonder, if it is clear that you are going to go down and that you have no alternatives would your processor release your user database as a courtesy?

I dont think its about courtesy. I think its about obligation.

Webby · 10-12-2002, 12:56 AM

AnnihilaT:

Interesting post. I never ever considered a webmaster was some kinda "affiliate" of a processor, but noticed this introduction of the term "Sponsored Merchant" to whom the processor pays "commission". Since when?

I only started reading the VISA form, (the one you pay em to give info about yourself), and just laughed. Going to have another look now - it may be that by signing this (which I sure as hell ain't!), you are entering into this "Sponsored Merchant" and "commission" deal and passing rights over that you currently have. Don't know... but I would not trust em with a dime..

Perhaps some processor can comment? But hell.. for the moment I may listen to opinions from a processor, but would still be sleeping with my lawyer till it was clarifed.

MikeEP · 10-12-2002, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnihilaT

You are misinformed as most ppl are. They are YOUR CLIENTS. Not Ibills nor anyone else. They will certainly tell you that they cant give you the info when you call but informing them that they will be hearing from your attorneys will change their tone. The information is yours, man. You have just authorized them to hang on to it for you. I know 2 people here in .EU that have gotten their rebills list from IBILL with all relevant payment info already. Of Course they will tell you they cant give it to you. Those rebills are their bread and butter. Call your attorney have him draft a letter if they dont respond to you with verbal arm twisting. It can be done.

Agreed, and to be honest, i can't believe you guy haven't gone this route with your legal teams yet. To much is at stake.

Have the "laws" changed since the DMR issue? We got our databases from them when they folded, and the "big 3" sure seemed happy to take them without any question back then.
Things that make you go hmmmm.....

Anyway, carry on..

Shark · 10-12-2002, 05:21 AM

AnnihilaT,

These rebills that you are talking about moving, are you referring to sales made through your own merchant account at the third billing companies ?

My understanding was that if you use a third party billing company with your own merchant account details then you own the rebills and can move them but if you use a third party biller in the usual fashion, they own the rebill info as it is attached to their merchant account.

AnnihilaT · 10-12-2002, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shark
AnnihilaT,

These rebills that you are talking about moving, are you referring to sales made through your own merchant account at the third billing companies ?

My understanding was that if you use a third party billing company with your own merchant account details then you own the rebills and can move them but if you use a third party biller in the usual fashion, they own the rebill info as it is attached to their merchant account.

Regardless of whether you have a merchant account or not, they are your customers and the information has to be released to you if you request it. There are no exceptions.

Calvinguy · 10-12-2002, 06:48 AM

AnnihilaT,

What european thirdparty billers have you good experience with?

AnnihilaT · 10-12-2002, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Calvinguy
AnnihilaT,

What european thirdparty billers have you good experience with?

Cant help you there...Always dealt with the big guys in the past.
Im in the same boat as the rest of you but i dont think that switching to a european biller is the longterm solution.

Im leaning towards running all my old rebills from ibill and ccbill thru my own merchant account and sending new business to a european third party biller. I think eventually europe will follow in the footsteps of america in which case it would be smart if you have a solution in place already for when this happens. As people have mentioned before, under these regulations it makes no sense to pay the exorbitant fees the processors charge and be forced to abide by more stringent guidelines than you would have to if you were doing your own processing via your own merchant account. It's ridiculous.

"We are gonna treat you worse than VISA would if you were a merchant, charge you up to 300% more in fees, report everything about you to the US GOV, spring all of this on you with 3 weeks notice, and we hope you understand this is in all of our best interest", say the IPSP's and wonder why we all start looking for better options.

Can i at least get a reach around while im getting my ass pounded?

djeez!

-Anni

Chris Mallick · 10-12-2002, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shark
AnnihilaT,

These rebills that you are talking about moving, are you referring to sales made through your own merchant account at the third billing companies ?

My understanding was that if you use a third party billing company with your own merchant account details then you own the rebills and can move them but if you use a third party biller in the usual fashion, they own the rebill info as it is attached to their merchant account.

You are correct in your description of the handling of transactions billed through your own, versus an IPSP's merchant account. If an IPSP were to give you credit card numbers, as someone on this thread said that iBill has done, they would be terminated as an IPSP and a Merchant. l bet that IF iBill transferred card data it was because they were billing for a merchant with his / her own account.

It is plain and simple: Card numbers and cardholder data must be held by the Merchant of record in a secure (read: encrypted) environment and may not be passed between merchants.

Chris
CEO
EPOCH

cherrylula · 10-12-2002, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by quiet

a hundred times. you can not 'move' your rebills. the members would need to be canceled, and then sign up under your new processor.

it sucks very large donkey balls.

hahahahaha quiet..... sucks big donkey balls, we say that all the time over here!

Indeed it sucks very large donkey balls.

quiet · 10-12-2002, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Mallick

It is plain and simple: Card numbers and cardholder data must be held by the Merchant of record in a secure (read: encrypted) environment and may not be passed between merchants.

Chris
CEO
EPOCH [/B]

gee, someone who actually know what they're talking about.

apparently, you can transfer third party rebills to your own merchant account, provided that the merchant account is processed through the same biller.

one 3rd party biller to another - nope.

10-11-2002, 10:48 PM	#1
AnnihilaT Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: GPS OFFLINE Posts: 249	Additional Info about this Visa crap Hi, Im new to this board so set your phasers to stun, please. Im looking for some feedback on some info and ideas we are working on right now. Im real interested in who read this article and what everybody's take on it is. http://www.avnonline.com/issues/2002...002_lead.shtml There werent many reponses to the the last post about this article by a different poster and im just curious if not many of you read it all the way thru or what. According to the article in the link above a "presence in the country of your IPSP" has been clarified by VISA to mean that you must have a physical location and staff in the USA. This means to me that any foreign operation currently processing with ccbill, ibill, epoch and others will lose all their rebills from Nov. 1 forward unless they can get a US corporation, a building, and some staff over there before the 24th of Oct. (the deadline for completing the registration process). Am I misunderstanding this? Why does it seem that not many of you are very concerned about this? I just learned yesterday (from a european processor) that all the big processors have known about this for at least 6 months and still waited till the last minute to let us know leaving us with few weeks to explore our options and figure out what we want to do. I also find it very strange that all the "big guys" got together and released a joint statement. Smells funny to me...one can come to their own conclusions what this implies. I think the following might be interesting information for some of you as well: Any processor you use now MUST release to you a list of your clients and their payment info on request. This to me is significant because if you have a merchant account already(european based) and decent software to process your transactions, it becomes trivial to import the payment info of your current EPOCH(for example) clients into your own database and begin processing your own rebills. Stay tuned on this. Im looking at the feasibilty of having a system ready for this very thing before the registration deadlines at which point I would be willing to consider processing rebills for anyone switching to a european biller and wanting to migrate their US based rebills without paying the 750 and going thru the process of releasing every last detail about themselves to Visa, IRS, US GOV, and who knows who else. Anyone would have any interest in something like this? __________________ Mmmm.......spam!

10-11-2002, 10:54 PM	#2
pr0 rockin tha trailerpark Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: ~Coastal~ Posts: 23,088	__________________ __________ Loadedca$h - get sum! - Revengebucks - mmm rebills! - webair (gotz sErVrz)

10-11-2002, 11:02 PM	#6
AnnihilaT Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: GPS OFFLINE Posts: 249	my apologies then...as i said im new to the board and havent been able to read everything and what i have seen covering this hasnt mentioned the option of taking your rebills with you from another processor to a new one or your own. Has it been mentioned already ? __________________ Mmmm.......spam!

10-11-2002, 10:58 PM	#4
psyko514 See sig. Join Epic Cash. Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec. ICQ: 214702014 Posts: 22,366	he's shooting you cause this topic has already been covered, and your link has been posted several times.

10-11-2002, 11:34 PM	#14
psyko514 See sig. Join Epic Cash. Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec. ICQ: 214702014 Posts: 22,366	12000 rebills... holy fucking shit... that's for how many sites? at $20 a rebill, minus 15% commission, that's about 200k a month. (i used guesstimated round figures to make the calculation easier) wow.

10-12-2002, 12:01 AM	#18
psyko514 See sig. Join Epic Cash. Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec. ICQ: 214702014 Posts: 22,366	i know that... i was just saying average prices... at that volume, the commission is obviously lower. and if your rebilling at $40, then that's well over 400k a month, which is well over 3.6mil a year, which is well over the amount of cash i'll see in my lifetime. and i'm only 12.

10-12-2002, 12:16 AM	#21
Shoplifter Richest man in Babylon Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Posts: 10,002 Posts: 5,726	I wonder, if it is clear that you are going to go down and that you have no alternatives would your processor release your user database as a courtesy?

10-12-2002, 12:56 AM	#24
Webby Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Far far away - as possible Posts: 14,956	AnnihilaT: Interesting post. I never ever considered a webmaster was some kinda "affiliate" of a processor, but noticed this introduction of the term "Sponsored Merchant" to whom the processor pays "commission". Since when? I only started reading the VISA form, (the one you pay em to give info about yourself), and just laughed. Going to have another look now - it may be that by signing this (which I sure as hell ain't!), you are entering into this "Sponsored Merchant" and "commission" deal and passing rights over that you currently have. Don't know... but I would not trust em with a dime.. Perhaps some processor can comment? But hell.. for the moment I may listen to opinions from a processor, but would still be sleeping with my lawyer till it was clarifed.

10-12-2002, 05:21 AM	#26
Shark Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 205	AnnihilaT, These rebills that you are talking about moving, are you referring to sales made through your own merchant account at the third billing companies ? My understanding was that if you use a third party billing company with your own merchant account details then you own the rebills and can move them but if you use a third party biller in the usual fashion, they own the rebill info as it is attached to their merchant account.

10-12-2002, 06:48 AM	#28
Calvinguy Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: European Union Posts: 1,752	AnnihilaT, What european thirdparty billers have you good experience with?