God Lets Girl Die in Wisconsin

[fuzzylogic]

Madeline Kara Neumann is shown working on chalk art last summer during downtown Wausau's Chalk Fest.


Weston, Wisconsin: 11 year old Madeline Neumann died after her parents refused to take her to a doctor for her progressing illness; instead, they turned toward prayer as the solution. An autopsy determined the girl died from a treatable form of diabetes.

The girl's parents attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith." They believed "it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray." The mother still believes the girl can be resurrected.

The girl has three siblings still living in the home. So far, police find no reason to remove them. The girl's death remains under investigation and findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges.

Source: www.foxnews.com

[fuzzylogic]

An old joke refers to this blind faith problem. A town has been having rain for days and the river on the outskirts of town has begun overflowing its banks. The mayor issues an evacuation order, but the overly religious family refuses to leave saying, "God will protect us". The National Guard comes by in amphibious trucks to help the family leave once travelling by car is impossible. Again they refused saying, "God will protect us" The flood waters rise and the family is forced to seek high ground on the roof of their home. A volunteer rescue worker comes by in a small boat offering rescue. The family again refuses saying "God will protect us" As the flood waters rise and the father is holding his children above the water which nearly covers him a helicopter comes and offers to save them. They again refuse saying "God will protect us" Of course the family drowns and meets their maker. Obviously upset that god didn't protect them the Father demands to know why to which god replies "I had the mayor issue an evac order. I had the National Guard come by and offer rescue. I had a volunteer rescue worker offer help from a boat. I had a helicopter offer to pluck you from the water. How much help do you need?"

[Scott McD]

I think this was posted yesterday.

Fucking idiots though. Send them to jail !!

[fuzzylogic]

Originally Posted by Scott McD

I think this was posted yesterday.

thx for the heads up.
i wont post in this thread anymore.


cheers

[CDSmith]

Sounds like the parents let her die, not God.

[C_U_Next_Tuesday]

good ol christian zealots at their finest...hang em high.

[Lycanthrope]

...and last year at the Christian "life fest" in Wisconsin a girl died on the "Air Glory" ride.

Different circumstances yes, but "God's will" none the less (in these peoples' eyes).

The point is, I live with whackos.

[who]

She looks about 30 in that pic

[Pleasurepays]

you can't defend christianity or islam and not argue that it was the will of god that she died. if anything, it could be argued that her parents were being far less hypocritical than others of their faith.

[fatfoo]

Originally Posted by fuzzylogic

"I had the mayor issue an evac order. I had the National Guard come by and offer rescue. I had a volunteer rescue worker offer help from a boat. I had a helicopter offer to pluck you from the water. How much help do you need?"

Yeah... god helps those who help themselves

[fatfoo]

Originally Posted by who

She looks about 30 in that pic

don't get too excited

[tony286]

thats so scary its like an addiction.

[Iron Fist]

Originally Posted by fuzzylogic

An old joke refers to this blind faith problem. A town has been having rain for days and the river on the outskirts of town has begun overflowing its banks. The mayor issues an evacuation order, but the overly religious family refuses to leave saying, "God will protect us". The National Guard comes by in amphibious trucks to help the family leave once travelling by car is impossible. Again they refused saying, "God will protect us" The flood waters rise and the family is forced to seek high ground on the roof of their home. A volunteer rescue worker comes by in a small boat offering rescue. The family again refuses saying "God will protect us" As the flood waters rise and the father is holding his children above the water which nearly covers him a helicopter comes and offers to save them. They again refuse saying "God will protect us" Of course the family drowns and meets their maker. Obviously upset that god didn't protect them the Father demands to know why to which god replies "I had the mayor issue an evac order. I had the National Guard come by and offer rescue. I had a volunteer rescue worker offer help from a boat. I had a helicopter offer to pluck you from the water. How much help do you need?"

[woj]

there are some fucked up people in this world :-/

[Blazed]

He moves in mysterious ways

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

you can't defend christianity or islam and not argue that it was the will of god that she died. if anything, it could be argued that her parents were being far less hypocritical than others of their faith.

Ever hear the story of the man caught in a flood?

There was a certain pious man who lived by the river. The river began to flood so he prayed to God to save him.

The water level rose and he went upstairs to avoid the water. A boat passed and offered to rescue him. The man refused saying he had prayed to God and he had perfect faith that God would answer his prayer.

The water level rose and the man, still full of faith, clung to the chimney pot on the roof of his house. A helicopter flew down and offered to take him off. He refused. He had his faith in God.

The water arose above his head and he drowned.

When he got to Heaven the pearly gates were shut.

'Why are the gates shut?' he asked, 'I have been a pious man all my life.'

God said they were shut because the man had rejected him.

The man denied it. How had he rejected God. God said, 'I sent you a boat, and you rejected my help. I sent you a helicopter and you rejected my help.'


Maybe in this case the readily available cure = the boat, the doctors = helicopter.

Food for thought.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Ever hear the story of the man caught in a flood?

There was a certain pious man who lived by the river. The river began to flood so he prayed to God to save him.

The water level rose and he went upstairs to avoid the water. A boat passed and offered to rescue him. The man refused saying he had prayed to God and he had perfect faith that God would answer his prayer.

The water level rose and the man, still full of faith, clung to the chimney pot on the roof of his house. A helicopter flew down and offered to take him off. He refused. He had his faith in God.

The water arose above his head and he drowned.

When he got to Heaven the pearly gates were shut.

'Why are the gates shut?' he asked, 'I have been a pious man all my life.'

God said they were shut because the man had rejected him.

The man denied it. How had he rejected God. God said, 'I sent you a boat, and you rejected my help. I sent you a helicopter and you rejected my help.'


Maybe in this case the readily available cure = the boat, the doctors = helicopter.

Food for thought.

People are not taught in the bible that God works in such ways. They are taught about miracles, water turning to wine, dead raising from the grave, blind learning to see again, lepers being cured and about the power of prayer to solve lifes problems.

furthermore, they are taught that God decides who lives and dies, about everything being "the will of God" and so on.

It's not unreasonable for someone who is listening to this their entire life to expect God to cure her diabetes. The traditional view of God and healing doesn't involve insulin shots or antibiotics or long hospital stays.

Once you cross that barrier of accepting that "God works in mysterious ways" and that anything and everything can be explained as "Gods work"... then you have to start questioning the negatives and babies dying in a plane crash and then to questioning your very own beliefs and whether or not God exists.

The bible depicts God working in a very direct and personal way and responding to prayer and performing miracles... even when curing disease or saving "believers" from plagues or whatever.

[Pleasurepays]

Islam was much more clever btw to encourage the injection of that little caveat into every sentence that people say practically ... "allah willing..." "if allah wills it" ... "if its the will of allah"..

why would it be unreasonable for a person after having that beat into their brain their entire life think it that cause and cure are both the "will of Allah"

[CDSmith]

Pleasurepays, you have some very misguided and too-literal views of what you think "people are taught in the bible" dude. Maybe you ought to head over to a christian forum for answers, or perhaps a church. To me, much of the bible is symbolic in nature, written not to amaze you with some grand magic act but to illustrate solid precepts for living one's life with a modicum of honor and integrity. It is a guide, not a promise of cures if you pray hard enough.

All I'm saying is that people are all too quick to blame it on God, or place any blame on anything for that matter, other than themselves (where it all too often belongs).

Christians are as fallible as anyone else. Some of them have misguided faith, as is obvious in this case. Anyone who sees things clearly (in their faith) realizes that while there are miracles being worked all over the planet they aren't so obvious as "abbracadabra" and their kid is magically cured through prayer. If that were the case there would be no athiests, all you'd need do is pray and *poof*, the genie grants your wish.

Conversely, if all people of faith were as misguided as this couple seems to be then christians all over the world would contantly be dying because of their faith and neglecting treatment. That isn't the case though is it? Most Christians believe but part of that faith is in knowing that the very cures, although man-made, were waiting to be discovered but were possible because of God.

I've been in a church or two in my life, and although I don't claim to believe as the masses do or agree with the policies of organized religion, I have gathered some knowledge on their beliefs.

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

People are not taught in the bible that God works in such ways.

Actually, yes they are. Plenty of examples of it marbled throughout it. It's the very essence of what the phrase "The lord works in mysterious ways" was intended to mean.

But I'm not going to go looking for examples for you. For one this isn't the forum to hold a sermon, and for another... I know they're there but I just don't want to. :D

Seriously, pose this question on a christian forum and you'll get all kinds of examples.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Pleasurepays, you have some very misguided and too-literal views of what you think "people are taught in the bible" dude. Maybe you ought to head over to a christian forum for answers, or perhaps a church. To me, much of the bible is symbolic in nature, written not to amaze you with some grand magic act but to illustrate solid precepts for living one's life with a modicum of honor and integrity. It is a guide, not a promise of cures if you pray hard enough.

well.... i did go to a private christian school... and was raised around this sort of insanity. its not "the bible" generally as much as it is the church and what they are taught or how a person chooses to interpret the "messages" and which ones they choose to ignore and which they choose to live by.

i am not defending what she did. its absurd and its murder.

who decides which messages are just parables or symbolic and which are records of actual events that actually occurred? did jesus wake up and walk up to heaven? you can't say no to that because that is the very foundation of christianity... but did he turn water to wine? no? really? is that somehow less silly and "just a symbolic message"?

who decides where to draw those very subjective lines?

people do. are those lines different today than they were 1000 years ago? of course. was there somehow less symbolism 400 years ago? its all very subjective and open to interpretation...

i am simply saying that its not all that unreasonable to see someone thinking "God will heal her"..

maybe you need to go to church and watch 1000 people pray to make someones cancer go away? thats no less retarded.

[Jake the King]

God didn't let her die . . . he killed her.


Why???? He has a plan.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Actually, yes they are. Plenty of examples of it marbled throughout it. It's the very essence of what the phrase "The lord works in mysterious ways"

do you realize you are quoting a british author and not the bible? i can send you a bible.

[Jake the King]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

maybe you need to go to church and watch 1000 people pray to make someones cancer go away? thats no less retarded.

YES!!! Pray for cancer to go away!!! HA HA HA HAAAAA HAA ha ha ahaahaa!!


If God didn't want you to get cancer, he wouldn't have GIVEN IT TO YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE!


If you have cancer . . . GOD wanted it that way. Now die like God wants all you cancer fuckers!

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

well.... i did go to a private christian school... and was raised around this sort of insanity. its not "the bible" generally as much as it is the church and what they are taught or how a person chooses to interpret the "messages" and which ones they choose to ignore and which they choose to live by.

i am not defending what she did. its absurd and its murder.

Agreed, so far so good.

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

who decides which messages are just parables or symbolic and which are records of actual events that actually occurred? did jesus wake up and walk up to heaven? you can't say no to that because that is the very foundation of christianity... but did he turn water to wine? no? really? is that somehow less silly and "just a symbolic message"?

who decides where to draw those very subjective lines?

That's what pastors, preachers and ministers are for I suppose. Of course no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to believe what they telll you, but some of them are quite good at advising others on such matters. (and some are God-awful)

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

its all very subjective and open to interpretation...

Very much so.

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

i am simply saying that its not all that unreasonable to see someone thinking "God will heal her"..

It's also not unreasonable for others to point out that their faith is misdirected.

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

maybe you need to go to church and watch 1000 people pray to make someones cancer go away? thats no less retarded.

Actually I don't see where it hurts for them to pray. Is it retarded or are they exploring all options? I've known plenty of people with life-threatening cancer including several members of my own family, and have some understanding in me about why they would choose to pray for help.

I stand by my initial statement in this thread. I think the title is wrong and it's the parent's who "let the girl die in Wisconsin". Jehovah witnesses do the same thing, they are notorious for refusing certain treatments, such as blood transfusions, and many of them do die because of it. THAT to me is retarded.

[tony286]

I dont understand how they didnt take the other childen.

[Angry Jew Cat - Banned for Life]

fuck christians are stupid...

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Actually I don't see where it hurts for them to pray. Is it retarded or are they exploring all options? I've known plenty of people with life-threatening cancer including several members of my own family, and have some understanding in me about why they would choose to pray for help.

ok... i know i am very cynical, but i was being serious.

just like the congregation that is praying for someone to get better... they are doing so because they believe God will hear their prayers and heal the person. thats the very point of it. thats what prayer is. thats why people pray.

the idea and basic appeal of all of this is that you now have some indirect control... "you do XYZ and things should work out just find because God loves you"

the difference is that reasonable, rational people ALSO realize that its not going to be the deciding factor.

my point was this

1) she murdered her kid. sucks.

2) its also not that big of a stretch in reasoning for her to think God will heal her based on the teachings of christ and christianity.

i wasn't trying to defend it.. i was more pointing out that its a very scary consequence of religion and it presents some interesting arguments "there is no god", "well God will help, but only if you do xyz", "your faith just wasn't strong enough or God would have cured her diabetes" etc etc. i think is quite logical for her to believe god will take care of her child and heal her because they are good and honest christians, living according to the word of God. its "logical" but religion has been forced to also infuse a little reality into the situation to account for the fact that bad stuff happens to bad people and tweak the message a little to say that "God helps those who help themselves" to blur the God line a little more.

the problem with religion is that religion is often the device that people use to make sense of the world around them. it provides a lot of very simplistic, cut and dry answers to overwhelmingly complex questions. I dont think we can hold people morally accountable for how they interpret that message. its huge, its complex, its confusing, its often contradictory, it doesn't jive with real life or science, but at the same people are being unfairly told that their eternal salvation depends on it

totally reasonable to expect a hic-up here and there

[Pleasurepays]

i was sent to a private christian school when i was young. it was a harsh lesson in denial and absurd human behavior...

imagine listening to a sermon before school starts and the guy saying he got out of the shower, bent over and the voice of God told him to stand up and then gave him instructions (this guy really said that)

picture everyone just staring at him in awe... thinking quietly "god spoke to this guy"

then imagine a second grader slowing and innocently raising his hand and innocently asking "how do you know it was god"

everyone is totally disgusted and upset

he scrambles to answer and expresses a little dissapointment that i would even ask such a thing.

i had just watched The Amityville Horror (1979) and asked "well, how do you know it wasn't satan... or how do you know your not just crazy like guy in The Amityville Horror who killed his family"

i was quickly escorted out and got my ass beat with no explanation given. but i was serious. really serious. in fact, i was a little scared that some guy was proudly telling us he was hearing voices... i was thinking about crazy people and that crazy people always hear voices.

[Jake the King]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

i was quickly escorted out and got my ass beat with no explanation given. but i was serious. really serious. in fact, i was a little scared that some guy was proudly telling us he was hearing voices... i was thinking about crazy people and that crazy people always hear voices.

Grown man, naked, shower, wet . . . . . telling young kids about his naked, shower, wet meeting with GOD sounds about right. Did he ever TOUCH you?


At least you NOW realize that all, "Christians" are genuine whack jobs!


God will kick your ass for doubting him you dummy!!!! Now get naked and wet and wait for god's instructions!!!

[Jake the King]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Actually I don't see where it hurts for them to pray. Is it retarded or are they exploring all options? I've known plenty of people with life-threatening cancer including several members of my own family, and have some understanding in me about why they would choose to pray for help.

Look dimwit, if GOD didn't want you to die of cancer, he wouldn't give it to you (in the first place). How dumb are you?


Tell those "plenty of people" that GOD has chosen them to die of cancer. That should ease their worries about an early death.

Die cancer fuckers!

[Missy]

This whole idea of "God will take care of me" really struck a nerve with me. I too was raised in a very strict Christian home, attending a very uptight Baptist school through 8th grade, having to go to church every Sunday, Bible Study every Wednesday, Bible camp every summer, blah blah blah. I have since learned to think for myself and not take everything I was taught in church and school as fact simply because "the Bible says so" (as most of my family believes).

The part that really irks me about all of this is that my mother is exactly the way that joke describes. In other areas of her life, she seems normal and practical. However, she is one of those who firmly believes that "God will provide" even if she does nothing to help herself. She and my stepdad are very poor, barely scraping by every month. But when she is offered a job she turns it down, saying "God will provide". So instead she allows people from her church to pay their bills when they can't afford them, give them used vehicles when theirs break down, etc. This is her idea of God providing.

I love my mother dearly, but sometimes I just want to smack her on the forehead and tell her "God IS providing you by putting that great job opportunity right in front of your face! Get off your lazy ass and help yourself for once!" She, and most of her/my family, so firmly believe that if it's God's will, he'll provide the way... to the extent that they seem to have forgotten that God helps those who help themselves, and may not hand them everything they need, but will hand them opportunities that will allow them to work and earn what they need.

This is a very sensitive subject for me. It's all about brainwashing.

[starpimps]

saw this on nancy grace she was extra pissed about it.
charge em with negligence causing death

[bhutocracy]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

I stand by my initial statement in this thread. I think the title is wrong and it's the parent's who "let the girl die in Wisconsin". Jehovah witnesses do the same thing, they are notorious for refusing certain treatments, such as blood transfusions, and many of them do die because of it. THAT to me is retarded.

Of course your first statement is correct.. but only because there is no such thing as god and it makes the thread title no different from "An invisible pink unicorn let this child die".. of course the thread starter was being facetious...

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

i was sent to a private christian school when i was young. it was a harsh lesson in denial and absurd human behavior...

imagine listening to a sermon before school starts and the guy saying he got out of the shower, bent over and the voice of God told him to stand up and then gave him instructions (this guy really said that)

picture everyone just staring at him in awe... thinking quietly "god spoke to this guy"

then imagine a second grader slowing and innocently raising his hand and innocently asking "how do you know it was god"

everyone is totally disgusted and upset

he scrambles to answer and expresses a little dissapointment that i would even ask such a thing.

i had just watched The Amityville Horror (1979) and asked "well, how do you know it wasn't satan... or how do you know your not just crazy like guy in The Amityville Horror who killed his family"

i was quickly escorted out and got my ass beat with no explanation given. but i was serious. really serious. in fact, i was a little scared that some guy was proudly telling us he was hearing voices... i was thinking about crazy people and that crazy people always hear voices.

I told you, Christians are just as fallible as anyone else, and in some cases much moreso. I've run across plenty of hypocrisy and misguided faith in my 45 years, much of it inside the walls of churches (mostly when I was a kid). It turned me off of organized religion completely, but did not sway me from keeping my mind open where one's personal faith is concerned (both my own and that of others).

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by Missy

This whole idea of "God will take care of me" really struck a nerve with me. I too was raised in a very strict Christian home, attending a very uptight Baptist school through 8th grade, having to go to church every Sunday, Bible Study every Wednesday, Bible camp every summer, blah blah blah. I have since learned to think for myself and not take everything I was taught in church and school as fact simply because "the Bible says so" (as most of my family believes).

The part that really irks me about all of this is that my mother is exactly the way that joke describes. In other areas of her life, she seems normal and practical. However, she is one of those who firmly believes that "God will provide" even if she does nothing to help herself. She and my stepdad are very poor, barely scraping by every month. But when she is offered a job she turns it down, saying "God will provide". So instead she allows people from her church to pay their bills when they can't afford them, give them used vehicles when theirs break down, etc. This is her idea of God providing.

I love my mother dearly, but sometimes I just want to smack her on the forehead and tell her "God IS providing you by putting that great job opportunity right in front of your face! Get off your lazy ass and help yourself for once!" She, and most of her/my family, so firmly believe that if it's God's will, he'll provide the way... to the extent that they seem to have forgotten that God helps those who help themselves, and may not hand them everything they need, but will hand them opportunities that will allow them to work and earn what they need.

This is a very sensitive subject for me. It's all about brainwashing.

Brilliant post. It really does sound like your mother needs a smack in the forehead.

Your stepdad too for that matter.

[Angelo22]

Originally Posted by Scott McD

Fucking idiots though. Send them to jail !!

I agree...

[Michaelious]

Yeah i think they should go to jail

[Sex9]

Originally Posted by Missy

This whole idea of "God will take care of me" really struck a nerve with me. I too was raised in a very strict Christian home, attending a very uptight Baptist school through 8th grade, having to go to church every Sunday, Bible Study every Wednesday, Bible camp every summer, blah blah blah. I have since learned to think for myself and not take everything I was taught in church and school as fact simply because "the Bible says so" (as most of my family believes).

The part that really irks me about all of this is that my mother is exactly the way that joke describes. In other areas of her life, she seems normal and practical. However, she is one of those who firmly believes that "God will provide" even if she does nothing to help herself. She and my stepdad are very poor, barely scraping by every month. But when she is offered a job she turns it down, saying "God will provide". So instead she allows people from her church to pay their bills when they can't afford them, give them used vehicles when theirs break down, etc. This is her idea of God providing.

I love my mother dearly, but sometimes I just want to smack her on the forehead and tell her "God IS providing you by putting that great job opportunity right in front of your face! Get off your lazy ass and help yourself for once!" She, and most of her/my family, so firmly believe that if it's God's will, he'll provide the way... to the extent that they seem to have forgotten that God helps those who help themselves, and may not hand them everything they need, but will hand them opportunities that will allow them to work and earn what they need.

This is a very sensitive subject for me. It's all about brainwashing.

I was also raised christian(roman catholic to be exact, italian family--I am now a proud athiest) but I have a major issue with what you said...and I mean no disrespect what-so-ever...but you say "god helps those who help themselves" truly bothers me. Having the notion that there is a man in the clouds who is actively helping you would imply that "he" is actively involved in our lives(or supposedly the lives of the people that believe in him.) So if your god is involved in the lives of the faithful and giving them help.. that could only mean that he/she/it is ignoring helpless christian children who are in true desperate situations. Although being poor is not fun, around the world, or even in your neighborhood there are tons of people that are in a far worse conditions and with no options...there are kids dying of starvation in africa, there are kids right here being severely abused, there are millions of people with no options like your mother. So if your all loving/all powerful god is actually giving your mother these great options for work which she seems to be ignoring...what does that say about his/hers/its priorities?

[Missy]

Originally Posted by Sex9

I was also raised christian(roman catholic to be exact, italian family--I am now a proud athiest) but I have a major issue with what you said...and I mean no disrespect what-so-ever...but you say "god helps those who help themselves" truly bothers me. Having the notion that there is a man in the clouds who is actively helping you would imply that "he" is actively involved in our lives(or supposedly the lives of the people that believe in him.) So if your god is involved in the lives of the faithful and giving them help.. that could only mean that he/she/it is ignoring helpless christian children who are in true desperate situations. Although being poor is not fun, around the world, or even in your neighborhood there are tons of people that are in a far worse conditions and with no options...there are kids dying of starvation in africa, there are kids right here being severely abused, there are millions of people with no options like your mother. So if your all loving/all powerful god is actually giving your mother these great options for work which she seems to be ignoring...what does that say about his/hers/its priorities?

No disrespect taken. I can't answer your questions though, since I have asked those very same questions myself many a time. The point I was trying to make in my post was not so much that I believe there is a God sitting up there deciding who to help and who not to help. I was more saying that I get so tired of the people who believe that everything will be handed to them on a silver platter simply because they have faith.

I don't even know what I believe about religion anymore. The only thing I do know is that I can't take everything I was taught as fact. Growing up I was taught not to question the Bible and the things I was told in church and school. As I have gotten older though, I question everything. The tough part is that I haven't found the answers.

I do believe that faith in religion is a good thing though... whether I believe in that religion or not. I think it gives people something to believe in, something to look forward to, and helps keep many people on this earth in line because of their fear of retribution.

[bhutocracy]

Originally Posted by Missy

She, and most of her/my family, so firmly believe that if it's God's will, he'll provide the way... to the extent that they seem to have forgotten that God helps those who help themselves, and may not hand them everything they need, but will hand them opportunities that will allow them to work and earn what they need.

This is a very sensitive subject for me. It's all about brainwashing.

Kind of like the brainwashing that so waters down any kind of divine intervention as to make "the ways" god works indistinguishable from the person's own efforts but still attributes this to god?

How is a blind faith in a miracle healing any different from a blind faith that god orchestrated a boat or a helicopter during a flood to save believers? What kind of faith does it take to water god's power down to that of the local disaster authority?

Why is it any different for your family to think god will take care of them financially, and for you to think that he's busy setting up opportunities for them if they get out there and try to find work? Which is the more god-like belief? The god of the bible and creator of all things providing for his adherents.. or the slacker god that after your family have taken it upon themselves to do nightclasses.. and after they've excelled in whatever further study your family might have done.. and after they've crafted a great resume and sent it out to 100 people.. the god that er... kinda stands around and says "You go girl!" and waits for inevitable random chance to ensure that at least 1% of the resumes get accepted? Oh yes, thats right.. god "inspired" them on the path that led them to do nightclasses and so on.. yeah?
He's pretty amazing.. about as great as the 29 other people in the class that just decided to do it of their own volition..

Even though it is a joke, that modern day parable is very distressing in it's irrational nature. It goes something like this:

1. God creates a flood. He's a mysterious guy and loves playing these kind of practical jokes that kill people.
2. The local disaster authority swings into action, over long and tedious decades the local people and bit by bit perfected their operations through trial and error to have a plan to save the most amount of people as possible. They do this because no one else is going to help or intervene to save their fellow humans.
3. Line by line the plan is followed, they do grid searches of the town. Nothing guides them in certain areas except their own skill and training because humans have free will, and can't be co-erced by supernatural forces - they are just doing what they've been trained to do.
4. They find all the people except for some idiots who refused to be saved.
5. People imagine these people going to an afterlife and god saying "I very specifically tried to kill you directly with my awesome flood powers, not only that but I am all powerful and all knowing so I knew i'd kill you.. people often call this 'My Divine Plan' but I'm going to take this opportunity to rub your nose in the fact that I killed you because you could also say I tried to save you by sending so many floods previously trying to kill you guys that I've forced humans to develop flood disaster plans in reaction to me, like antibodies to a virus (hey theres some handy info I left out of the bible!) which could have saved you if you'd taken any of the several rescue options that I knew you wouldn't take. Here have a cookie"

Oh yeah.. those blind faith people are WAY crazier than the "Mysterious Ways" watered down, suspiciously-and-co-indidentally-no-more-powerful-than-humans god people that kind of deny him any real glory but still try and slip him into the smallest of Occam's cracks like a thief in the night. The kind that in the aftermath of the Enlightenment, recieve all the benefits that man has provided but still spit in the face of reason and human achievement by ascribing these efforts away to a higher power without a second thought.

Where were god's helicopters saving flood victims 100 years ago? Records show he didn't keep his floods a house floor lower until "He" guided us to invent them.. I suppose we can know the will of god was to kill more of us back then and less now even though there are times more of us.
Why is it that at every step in human history it is a human achievement, the development of penicillin.. chemotherapy.. airbags.. that keeps the capricious foot of god off our throats? And yet there are people at every step praising the lord and not the doctors? At least the doctor cures patients.. he doesn't make them ill in the first place and ask someone else to clean up the mess..

It's all so superfluous as to be amusing. So yes chide away at the fundamentalists. The reality is Post enlightment/liberal christians are just as irrational, but because they've reduced got to being a god of the gaps they're very rarely if ever called on it.

[Missy]

Originally Posted by bhutocracy

...So yes chide away at the fundamentalists...

Hmmm... call me ignorant, but I'm not sure what your point was. I'm not chiding away at anybody except for those who believe that everything will be provided for them because of their faith in God. (You also completely lost me with your reference to night classes. Where did that come from?)

Whenever something good happens in their lives, they accredit it to "God's Will". Yet when something bad happens, they blame in on man-kind or their lack of faith. I am speaking in terms of those who have that kind of faith... not those who don't. Those who don't, know better.

[Jake the King]

God is, "all powerful," and will destroy you for fun!


Never question God . . . . . or he will rip out your soul and leave you to rot!

[qxm]

will this turn out in yet another "frivolous lawsuit" against God?????????

[CDSmith]

All I know is some athiests sound about as hate/judgemental/anger-filled as the fire-and-brimstone-spitting "religious nuts" they rant about.

I'll be happy continuing to keep an open mind on the subject.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

All I know is some athiests sound about as hate/judgemental/anger-filled as the fire-and-brimstone-spitting "religious nuts" they rant about.

I'll be happy continuing to keep an open mind on the subject.

everyone tends to tell themselves what they need to hear to survive. we are all the best liars we know.

[Sex9]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

All I know is some athiests sound about as hate/judgemental/anger-filled as the fire-and-brimstone-spitting "religious nuts" they rant about.

I'll be happy continuing to keep an open mind on the subject.

"nuts" as you say come in every variety, you cannot judge a viewpoint by a few "nuts" that may support it...you can only look at what they are saying and use your own logic skills to deduce if what anyone is saying has any validity. it is very scary to me that in todays society, with all of our technological advancements...that most of society still believes in fairy tails, it's really very sad... and as far as keeping an open mind...science is an open mind - it changes based on new facts and new evidence...faith is a closed mind-it requires you belive regardless of the facts

[morningstar]

This was posted already, but the first one has no image of the girl.

[Ivan Fuckalot]

This is no fun. I've lost my mother and my father. They died at age of 55 and 59. Shouldn't happen. Well, life is life

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by Sex9

"nuts" as you say come in every variety, you cannot judge a viewpoint by a few "nuts" that may support it...you can only look at what they are saying and use your own logic skills to deduce if what anyone is saying has any validity. it is very scary to me that in todays society, with all of our technological advancements...that most of society still believes in fairy tails, it's really very sad... and as far as keeping an open mind...science is an open mind - it changes based on new facts and new evidence...faith is a closed mind-it requires you belive regardless of the facts

Still, in all that science and "facts", the fact is not one of the leading scientists (nor anyone else) has ever been able to conclusively prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no God. Some will try to tell you it's been proven...it hasn't.

I'm simply not a fan of throwing ridicule in either direction, neither towards those who believe in a God or those who don't. The scorn and ridicule to me in itself is narrow-minded if not outright close-minded, and both traits foster ignorance and intolerance. Keeping an open mind however, fosters knowledge and understanding.

Some people of faith do keep an open mind and are tolerant and understanding of the beliefs (or lack thereof) of others. They are just a rare breed is all.