The other idea Ive thought of is an overlay that somehow embeds the user name on your site, and their ip into the video, or somehow creates a watermark righ on the video itself for every download. Video gets downloaded and ends up on any tube site or torrent without permission that user gets their account canceled and then maybe a way to blackball that member from signing up, or else allow signups but have restrictions. These are all things that can be done, but require it to be done industry wide, and to have a large financial backer to get them implemented. It isnt easy to close pandoras box... :Oh crap
Oh and 50 solutions that no one will adapt to cause they are scared to change...

Its chargeback hell.
And the only way to avoid this is to make it very clear that the member area is drm and what drm does before the surfer signs up and well you dont have to be an Einstein to realize that will greatly decrease your signups.

I think there are other solutions to be had. :2 cents:

Why do you say things that you have no data or knowledge on, to back up what you are saying? Not to be a dick, but you have no clue what you are talking about.

If you don't tell them the videos are downloadable, you don't have to tell them they are DRM protected. Once they get inside you 'could' offer downloadable videos as a bonus feature, that expires. Members won't cb because of that.

Just like they won't CB if you stop doing updates and your tours say you update.

99% of cb's are fraud transactions that never log in. The other 1% forgot they had the membership.

the video streaming just sucks for international - and yes, all the reality stuff is exclusive

I think you were right the first time.

No amount of explaining to users is going to free you from the burden from chargebacks in that scenario.

Yes you are right man, once again thats why all the big companies dropped them after they found out the lost sales of that drm crap. And that had nothing to do with shitty technology and had everything to do with surfers wanting to own the video instead of leasing it.
If its such a miracle then why doesnt every company have this now or better yet why did they all drop it? How much clearer do you want it?

What you mean the first time? Point me out threads where im not right? Im always right.

I never really felt much threatened by p2p, and here is my view on that:

I will admit - on a college I had a 8mbps connection and was downloading like crazy, I did download a lots of porn too (well studying cybernetics is not like hot chicks all around the place waiting to suck a hard unsatisfied cock).

But it took me more than 2 years to download a decent collection of porn (say 140 good movies) because you also deal with lots of shit that's badly marked, renamed and you have a hard time to find you cup of tea, everything takes ages etc.

So the time / accesibility factor is what speaks against p2p in my opinion.

p2p are NO WAY that much of a threat to me than TUBE sites, where you can view way more, thousands of movies and scenes and jerk off immediately..

$$$ my friend, the $$$.. I won't go to DRM because I can't afford it. I would rather spend the $5-$20k on something I can know/track that will earn me $100k. It 'could' cost up to $500k, depending on your needs.

Cheap solution it isn't - but it works like a freakin champ. The flash drm solution is much cheaper, but it still takes a power machine to run that crap.

That's the "real" problem with it. Yeah, back in the day it sucked.. But today, its the money and programs really don't make as much as people think.

I actually agree with Franck on this one, for whatever that's worth. In my experience, the reasons for charging back are more variant.

You still didnt explain why all the companies who already spent 1000's on it, 10's of 1000's all dropped it after a while...

Nevermind, we all know the answer.

You guys have no clue how big Fundorado is, and there is noone else more entitled to talk about this here than Madalton.

Tell me, how many programs can afford to pay 44 - 50 EUR per sign up?

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Oh boy... :1orglaugh

I'd oblige you, but there are only 24 hours in the day, man. :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

At any rate... not "for the first time"... but "the first time"... when you said it'd be chargeback hell. I don't think your plan to avoid it would avoid all that much. People don't read much... and what they read, they often soon forget.

This is simple.. Just look at your cb's you have now. CB's don't happen because of technical errors. Besides real fraud, most CB's never log in and the few that do only did it once and burned no bw.

The majority of refunds happen due to login issues and/or video play issues (streaming or download). More technical issues.

The answer is simple, the solution really sucked back then. 4, 5, 8 years, ever how long it has been is a great deal of time for a product to improve.

And not all companies went drm, not even 5% - but 90% complained like they did.

Are we talking in fucking circles here or what?
Once again it has nothing to do with improving anything...surfers dont wont to LEASE movies, no matter how fucking nice the technology is. The fact that they dropped it was because of that and nothing else.

Please dont let me repeat this again because i mentioned this 3 times now.

But you are wrong.. surfers don't have to lease a movie, actually surfers wouldn't know the difference. They could own it forever, if the site owner wanted that, and the movie could be shut down remotely if uploaded to tubes/torrent.

You know what an amazing thing about drm is.. check this

You can burn one movie (the full movie), the drm software will offer it in clips, with thumbnails to select from, you can jump to scenes, with little to no buffer time.

You could offer open streaming movies for all logged in members, but add in a level of "password protection" to stop pw leaks from viewing movies.

You could charge an extra $1 or say $10 for perm download movies (dvds). You could charge $5 for a 180 day download and move past the cb/refund periods.

You can shut movies off from a remote location, and offer an upsell.

You could get all canceled members that have downloaded to have a ad/promo/upsell in the video, that streaming and/or active members don't get.

Nothing needs to be downloaded/upgraded to make it work, normally at least.

You can stop/allow multi streams of the same or different videos from one user or limit the over all mbps they can get.

If you need a blowjob, or want to fuck a hooker, drm won't protect you.

Apple iTunes embeds your user data in the songs you download so they can be tracked if redistributed.

So basically the original Subject of this entire thread is not correct. There is no "easy solution" Either stuff doesn't work. OR it's too expensive. Neither is an "easy" or even practical solution for a members based paysite. :(
Of course we all knew that already or else everyone would be doing it. The DRM thing sounds great but it's just too expensive. The streaming vids wouldn't stop a 12 year old kid. And I can see where it might slow down a script that is ripping your members area out. But so far my main culprits have been guys from different big tit and interracial forums who actually buy memberships, download every video one-by-one and then upload them so their buddies can all pat them on the back. And of course once ONE guy does that....then all the other tube sites and torrent sites end up getting that vid from that one guys original download...since it's up on a tube or torrent site at that point and then everybody steals it and shares it.
So in my humble opinion there is NO "easy" solution YET. But the guy who comes up with a way for members to download a vid and be unable to share it with others....and does it at a practical and cheap cost. That guy is gonna be one wealthy motherfucker. :)

DRMnetworks.com is not outrageously expensive. It doesn't stop video theft, just makes it harder for any member to upload it for the props from his internet buds. Macs can't play WM DRM'd clips so that knocks out some surfers too.

I haven't used it yet, but netflix has a download movie option, and I bet you can't just share that anywhere you want. Perhaps you can, but I bet not. But Robbie you are right, there isn't a real easy answer.

Netflix is a streaming solution. Checks connection speed then buffers accordingly. There are a LOT of ways this can be done. Just have to get over the scared to change thing. :2 cents:

Yeah, but MakingItPay just said they have a DOWNLOAD OPTION. Sounds like a completely different thing.
And the streaming solution just will NOT work...hell, right now I'm going through the second week of a HUGE DDOS attack that the guy keeps adapting to the changes we make. I can ony imagine the pure disaster that would be taking place if all my members area was some sort of a streaming thing. I've delayed putting up my completed VOD section of my content just because of the nightmare of the DDOS.
That is just one of many real life complications that aren't being taken into account (and of course the aforementioned free software that CAN download streaming vids...making it useless)

I may have said it wrong. It is watch movies instantly on your PC, so it could very well be and most likely is a streaming solution.

Streaming CAN be done. www.adultrental.com does it no problem, www.videobox.com does it. (speedwise at least) Cant look at what was done before, have to look what can be done now. :2 cents:

You say people would lose members, ok that is short term. Imagine if a system was developed to stop say 80% of all content from being leaked industry wide. Once the floodgates are mostly closed and then you start sending out dmca's etc it would actually be worth it to sue people infringing on your content. Right now trying to sue or get content removed from sites is like trying to fill a bucket with piss that was used for shotgun target practice.

Everyone that cries about content theft mostly cries about stopping it post theft. Its like herding cats, its like trying to catch fleas with chopsticks, pissing in the wind etc etc etc Have to stop it from going out the door in the first place, or at least try to slow it. Until that leap is made not a damn thing will stop it period.

Then on top of that there will be new laws that are going to crack down on us 10 times harder if we dont keep it off kids computer monitors. Think about that when everyone cries about some members not liking drm, or a derivative thereof. :2 cents:

Ya watching The Italian job full screen on my second 22" monitor right now. It buffered right at the begining for about 2 to 3 minutes, as good of quality as if I was playing it from a downloaded file on my desktop if not better. No stops no buffering nothing.

How many people have a TOS for their paysites? Find a user sharing content, he is blackballed. Ya this will fall into a CB area unless we could get the processors to get on board with it. This can be done, its just not easy and quick.

well, your solution could be CDN - they handle the streaming, you just upload your content. bandwidth is just a little more expensive. you should contact CCBill about that - or ask your host

From a secret source.... http://eurorevenue.com Uses DRM, and prob does some sales too.

Legal Note: If you use DRM and anyone breaks it, rips your content, ect.. It is straight illegal and you can use that pressure on registrars to lock up domains and/or get injunctions, and expand into the EU, as it's straight theft at that point. It's something that is being used to attack torrents. The legal gates open wide, well past - country level copyright/trademarks.

I get very few surfer/member emails, since my sites are easy to navigate, the members area, too. So over 50% of my surfer emails are about the same "Can I download your movies?".

tube sites have good porn though

Exactly. The current model is similar to having a one month subscription to BlockBuster and being able to own ever movie that you can download in that month. In the past streaming wasn't an option so downloading was the only option. Things have changed and the business model needs to change.

What is the incentive to rebill? I downloaded X amount of your content for $24.99 for the first month. This month you updated 0.04 X amount of content (the actual percent isn't important, its the fact that the update every month is substantially smaller than the total content). Is that worth the rebill? Fuck no.

That doesn't really apply to sites like mine. It's a solo girl site with plenty of interaction on the inside. The guys that join her site are freakin' in love with her. They stay forever. And they look forward to each new update and make suggestions for it in the members forum. Plus as members they have the opportunity to actually do a shoot with her.
Now if I were running a site full of bought content or one of the big DVD rip sites....I would be damn worried about that.

The surfer has been taught (and is now used to) content from a membership site ending up on their hard drive for use beyond the membership period. Its time to teach the old dog new tricks - and to be honest I'm not overly concerned if a percentage are adverse to not being able to download or at least making it very difficult to do so, until a "solve all" solution presents itself at a good price.

Its my job to make sure the content is "can't miss" so they stay (and rebills are good when they can't keep it) I have less to police and for every email I get wanting to "how come I cant download the vids" I get way more from people enjoying themselves regardless.

I'm not using full drm right now but what I do makes it a real pain in the butt to keep the movies. Most members wouldnt know how to get around it and many don't have the time - way less content leakage to police too.

excellent post :thumbsup

What exactly are you doing? And how many members do you have? I'd love to hear something that would help. :)

Not that keen on going into it here lol - too many non industry. I'm not even saying its foolproof, just difficult and a bigger step in the right direction.

You can get me on ICQ though: 474701548 and ill be more than happy to see if any of it helps you.