El Demonio

Some WM's have found the truth about this VISA shit: And that is that the 3 stooges (IBill/CCbill/Epoch and also WSbilling) want to strong arm us.

The thing is that the world is divided in 6 banking regions, USA, Canada, Latin America& Caribbean, etc...this visa regulations WERE NOT accepted by all the bankinf regions, only the US, now, the 3 stooges have grown comfortably not developing banking relationships with other parts of the world, in other words, they only have US accounts, while other IPSP's do, they didn't do their homework, this is overconfidence.

In other words: The visa shit only applies to USA not the world, other IPSP's have bank relations in other countries and are not affected, read this:

"The new Visa rules in particular are directed against "aggregators" which specifically means companies such as ours in the third-party industry. The new rules are slated to come into effect very shortly within the US. These rules would make the third-party model prohibitively expensive for the industry. It would essentially be rendered impractical. Some billing companies such as Lancelot have decided to shut down rather than continue under the Visa/Mastercard regime.

However, not all regions of the world come under the new rules. The merchant banking industry is broken up into different regions such as North America, Europe, Asia etc. Each region can decide to opt in or opt out. While the US region has opted in, other regions have opted out. GloBill has decided to run its business with reputable banks in the opt-out regions. Not all billing companies have the capital, know how or foresight to set up merchant accounts with these particular banks and that is why I foresee some of these companies going under over the next few months.

With this move, GloBill feels it will emerge as one of the most stable companies in the industry.

Adrian Martin
Vice President
Glo-Bill.com "

It sounds to me like the big 3 (IBill, CCBill, Epoch) are trying to make us believe that this is a Visa International decision that all regions must follow, when in fact it is actually just a Visa USA decision.

Its also very suspicious how they made a joint announcement about this. Why would they do that?

They launched their announcement late this week, with a 4 weeks timeline, trying to make us believe it is an unavoidable fact, because they fear too much to loose all their client base, in fact it is a rumor (coming from an Ibill rep) that they have scramble to open bank accounts in other countries to avoid disaster. Just look now at the payment pages of WSB they now read that they are based in London, UK, when they are based in the USA.

i find the language in the 3 stooges emails too confusing, too much indeed, looks like thay want to hide something in order to get us tied up. i.e. they said:

"Under the new VISA USA regulations,"

OK this is USA

" an IPSP will only be permitted to
register Sponsored Merchants for processing if the Sponsored Merchant has
their corporation based in the same Country as the IPSP's Acquiring Bank for
VISA transactions."

What country then?, if it is VISA USA then it only takes cares for USA region.

Also pretty much confirmed in threads it is some global ruling - which it is not! Also introduced "countries" into the scenario to basically complicate the issue...

The joint announcement is the "club" giving no relevant notice to allow a smooth transition and causing panic in the hope that their recomendations that everyone open some US corp and get a Tax Code be adopted in a damage limitation exercise to retain their client base.

It is for the utmost importance to spread the word of this finding, we all have to know what kind of shit they are pulling to us, trying to deceive us, strong arm us, so we can stand together and tell them NO, they will be forced to solve the problem themselves, IT IS THEIR PROBLEM, NO OURS.

If we stand together, we can force them to fix it.

SPREAD THIS WORD, SO THEY WILL FIND US UNITED TOGETHER.

Here are some billers that are not affected by this VISA shit:

www.globill.com
www.multicards.com
www.globosale.com
www.2000charge.com
www.verotel.com

Also, VEROTEL has announced they will have a solution to switch over your REBILL database!, that is fantastic.

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Krome

That must have taken you ages to type in...dont mean to piss on your helpfulness but we already knew that about 10,000 times....

Krome

now that I do like

ozzymandius

it would be illegal for verotel to take a database of credit cards from another processor and then attempt to recharge those cards without hte cardholder's consent. Do you mean they have some kind of opt-in solution? I know that 2000charge and glo-bill have some automated program that makes it easier for webmasters to migrate their rebilling. It invoves emailing the user just before the next rebill, having them enter their cc# to continue with the membership etc. But they don't simply grab a cc database and start charging those cards. that would be highly illegal from what I understand!

Krome

Sorry if I was being rude, great informative post and a good summary of the last few days.

El Demonio

fine then Krome, the help srpread the word so we can force them to stand down.

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SunTzu

Where does it say that Verotel can switch over the rebill dbase? I have Verotel as a backup and haven't received any notices about that.

One more biller to add to that list - www.probilling.com.

Sunshine McGillicutty

Maybe.. but this issue needs to keep getting pushed on this and other boards. People have short memories.

El Demonio

Talk to [email protected]

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<IMX>

Thanks for the info. I suspected Visa aimed these new provisions at eliminating the 3rd-party billing model, this pretty much confirms it.

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El Demonio

Yes, we need to push it up, so they will face a cascade of resigns from us, that will scare the shit out of them.

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Krome

I can tell you now I am about as worried as a lamp chop at a vegan party..The bottom line is this, CCbill, Ibill and Epoch have fucked themselves with there strong arm tactic. I know for a fact that Globill have signed up over 2000 webmasters due to this and will be laughing there balls off...The big 3 will back down...

ozzymandius

A "lamp chop"? Would that be 60 watts or 100 watts?

El Demonio

We are going to win this, but together.

I'm posting this stuff in other boards, too, if i save your ass i'm saving mine.

Please support this initiative.

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tree

El Demonio

take this seriously tree

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UnseenWorld

I just hope GloBill's near perfect webmaster service doesn't go down the tubes along with the big rush in sign-ups.

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Nismo

right on sista!

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Nautilus

What exactly your initiative is? Posting the truth about big 3 lies on all boards? That isn't going to help. No more than posting truth about governement lies helps (people either do not hear or do not care).

I agree we otta keep our billing companies under control, but I'd prefer some realistic plan.

El Demonio

Ok, like which one?

I'm trying to make the WM community see that we can force them to stand down.

If you have other options i'm glad to hear and colaborate

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Nautilus

My question was - when you have the community, what exactly are you going to do?

El Demonio

We all telll the 3 stooges to find a solution for THEIR problem and leave us in peace with our fat rebills.

force them to solve THEIR problem it is not OUR problem, is THEIRS and they want to us to solve it for us.

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ControlThy

El Demonio,

I am not trying to sound negative or trying to discourage your current activity against Visa, however you must understand that the adult industry only accounts for a very small part of Visa's daily transaction totals.

Visa will not notice the lost amounts of transactions (if any) due to any actions taken by individuals or companies in the adult industry. Maybe putting more pressure on the billing companies will be more fruitful?

The adult industry is at the mercy of Visa and until alternative, widely used, payment methods are developed - we will stay dependant on them.

EscortBiz

Really pays to get my own merchant account if some of the things said are true

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steffie

bingo - we already knew this - but still there are lots of amateurs out there who are now joining this board. Look at all the new webmasters posting since 10/04

bump

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Nautilus

What are you going to do when they tell us to shut up and continue with their questionable practices?

NETbilling

EscortBiz,

We can get you all setup. You will be very happy with Netbilling, I promise.

Thank you, Mitch Farber

__________________


Mitch Farber
CEO - NETbilling, Inc.
Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456
Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!

El Demonio

I'm going to tell them that i'm passing all this info tho their competitors

Anyway, this is already working, got an email from Ibill a minutes ago, telling me to don't panic and *please* stop posting, that they will help me solve the problem, blah, blah....

It is working!!!

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ControlThy

That doesn't sound like IBILL at all.

Shoplifter

Ibill doesn't care about this at all. I have first person knowledge that they are treating $10 a day and $10k/ day guys the same way.

Post the email.

El Demonio

I'm not any small player at ibill, i'm premium acct. and a big one premium account.

I suppose their are having many emails by now

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IanUK

If anyone from IBill got back to you in under 2 days it would be a fucking miracle......

El Demonio

They actually reply to me very fast, i've heard this complaints before, but i know many people at Ibill since long ago.

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Nautilus

As far as I'm concerned the whole point of this thread is to put pressure on billing companies, not on VISA.
You're absolutely right, VISA is beyond our reach, and we're at their mercy until alternative payment solution is found.

But billing companies, flesh and blood of this undustry, are another story. We could and we SHOULD put pressure on them when they forget their money are OUR money. You've seen their attitude toward clients expressed on this board, and I don't think we should tolerate this, and I don't think there is nothing we could do about this.

They're big, but not as big as VISA. And while VISA do not depend on us, they almost 100% depend on our industry. Surely there are means to make them listen.

IanUK

Lucky you

I've been with them for about a year and seen my site go from $0 to hero in that time, but I'm switching to Globill.
I like someone to actually answer my questions when I ask them, not 2 days later - Ibill customer support is shit, the worst I've ever known (and living in the UK and putting up with BT means I know all about shit service, but they make BT look like support gods)

The rebills tho, they will be fuckin painful...

El Demonio

EXACTLY Nautilus!

You've got my point.

In fact, if we can force them this time, i think a whole new era will be opened for us, they will not dare to treat us the way they have the last times, never again.

I think it is our duty to uprise and make them know who's in charge, WE MEAN THE VERY LIFE to them, and what have they done?, being arrogant to us, trying to mock us, to deceive us?, that shows how much they care.

That is lack of IQ, you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

I think this assholes thinks they caught God from the balls when they reach success, when they sit in a comfortable office and lose contact with reality, they forget they are there because of us.

You see, back in 1996, Ibill attitude towards us was completely different than now, we have tolerated them so much, they have choked our biz with their irrational scrubbing, stupid downtimes and always hiding their failures from us.

No, no more, it is time to uprise and fight back.

And it is the best time to do it.

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Nautilus

2 El Demonio and others

My proposal is to signup with as many processors as possible and form a "pool" of webmasters. It's not really hard to have your system tuned to work with many processors, only requires some programming that most of us could afford. We for example currently use two billing companies, and looking for more.

The main idea of the pool will be to move our financial strength from one processor to another, but move on purpose, not at random. For example if one billing company fucked up confederation may decide to punish it and everyone from the pool move their money away from it.

You told you're going to "tell" them they otta do this or otta do that. I do not believe that is going to help. When wolf is in your barn talking to him will not help, you better start shooting and at least scare him away.

Futhermore - to avoid corruption we will decide only what billing company we're moving away from. But where to land everyone will decide on his own. Such a floating pool may become a substantial factor in this industry. Every billing company will know - if they fuck up they're going to get hit, and hit hard. People where jumping ships all the time, but since that was chaotic it didnt really hurt anybody. If several hundreds (or thousands) webmasters will jump ship at once with no warning, with one mouse click, I'm pretty sure that will tear a whole in their balance shit, and make them think twice before making smartass comments on public boards, or to fuck their clients in general.

Another positive factor - that floating pool may be a prize for all billing companies worth fighting for. As we have seen in the past several days companies' reactions on recent events were quite different. If we had such a pool by now we could reward those who expressed some interest in their clients and punish those popmous smartasses who were not going to lift a finger to help, in a matter of seconds.

steffie

dude i been trying to get a hold of you

icq me at 18314311

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Nautilus

I was going to say the same, but you posted it sooner

My idea to form a pool of wembasters and move money from one processor to another was meant as a tool to actually enforce what you were talking about.

I must repeat - I do not believe talking will help. They must know that if they fuck up they gonna get hit, hit hard and without warning. Any smartass CEO should know one arrogant comment may cost his company millions in processing fees seconds after he he hit "submit reply" button.

On the other side - companies trying to really do something for their clients would know their efforts will be rewarded, probably in very short time.

And another positive factor - these floating money will not only stimulate more competition among billing companies, they'll help to narrow the gap between the bigger and smaller guys (and we're interested to have several approximately the same in size companies competing for our money, not the current sitiation with three mammoth like billing companies and small fish trying to pick up what's left).

Scootermuze

Sounds like it could be a plan, but by the design, it would only work once..

If once leaving a billing company, everyone lands in different places, you've lost your strength. The pool has dissipated and the strength is gone.

To keep it strong, and with power, everyone would have to leap and land as a pool.

IMO

Nautilus

Idea of the plan is not to work only once, but not to work every day either. Was it Reagan who said "it's not intention but ability that matters"? Our ability to jump ship in the matter of second should matter for the billing companies. And our determination to do that if necessary.

If we will decide to process with this plan, for the first period it will lead only to the mass exodus from the big 3 since all the major fuck ups are currently comming from them. But those guys who got pool's money should know the button is still there and not going anywhere. If they supply us with good service now, they better not stop doing so in the future. We're not giving our money for free, they should earn them, and earn every day, not only one time to get us sign up with them.

So if one of the billing companies who scored recently eventually decided to go ccbill's or epoch's way, well... Red button is still there

rnicey

Let me see if I can put a few things to rest.

Yes WSB, IBill, CCBill, Epoch, Jettis talk to each other and discuss current issues. There is of course strength in numbers, but in this case it's not enough to go up against Visa. WSB is no coward when it comes to standing up for what we believe is right, sometimes to our financial detriment, but in this case it's been made very clear. Tow the line or get sunk.

WSB does have a U.K. presence. That's because we have an offshore banking relationship. It's not the only relationship, before you start getting edgy. We like to keep our options open, especially for our european webmasters.

From this standpoint let me tell you why I believe that the anger is misguided and why I personally wouldn't process offshore if I was in your shoes (a US company) right now. Three words, 'Cross Border Acquiring'. Visa International has made it really very clear that US webmasters need to process with a US processing company and so forth with each of it's regions.

If we could just process offshore and keep things the way they are, we would. Visa is no dummy, they'll be hunting and restricting cross-border merchants next. If any biller thinks they're going to be able to process US webmaster's transactions when they're not in the U.S., think again, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon the axe will fall.

My take on this: Basically Visa has had enough. Form a pool if you like. Demo in the streets and stick pins in effigies. They really don't care. They'd be quite happy in fact if the whole adult thing went away. Sure it'd be a short term drop in revenue, they might not be able to afford that fourth Picasso in the new New York office.

Think of us what you will. I firmly believe that continuing to process via 3rd party is the best combination of fees vs. productivity. Stagger through these mine fields on your own if you want. Personally I'd rather have a billing company that's on the bleeding edge of technology and communication with Visa/MC. WSB, IBill, CCBill, Epoch and Jettis will continue on, and I wish the others success also.

Nautilus

rnicey, you miss the whole point.

This VISA thing is the major reason why people feel pissed off now, but in fact it is just the last drop. We're tired from the arrogant and pompous attitude major billing companies practiced long ago before we first heard about new VISA regulations. And the way they handled current situation was so outrageous we feel we should intefere and put that to the end.

If you'd said just "guys we've got problems with VISA, and we're bleeding white trying to save as much as we can, but VISA is just stronger. we will help our clients at best of our abilities to come through this alive and in one piece, be that domestic or foreign clients" that would be the whole different story. But the godlike attitude some of your buddies seem to enjoy so much is absolutely intolerable.

ozzymandius

You took the words right outta my mouth Nautilus!!

El Demonio

Who do you think you fucking are WSB?, God?, ALah?

YOU ARE FUCKING DEAD IF WE ALL SWITCH TO GLOBILL OR MULTICARDS, OR EVERYTHING.

YOU EAT FROM OUR MONEY!

YOU STEP DOWN FROM THAT CLOUD AND ASK FORGIVENESS!

Ok, as Nautilus said, enough, i have a big rebill database and if i have to mail all my customers, no prob, i will.

I DID IT BEFORE AND WILL DO IT AGAIN, I DON'T FUCKING MIND START FROM SCRATCH IF I HAVE TO. But thing is clear here: WE ALL GOING TO REMEMBER YOUR ATTITUDE AND WE'LL SPREAD THE WORD AND YOUR BIZ WILL BE DEAD

WE ARE ALL ONE CIRCLE, NO BEGINNING, NO END.

Nautilus is rigth, this people is beyond redemption, just start the switch over.

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x582

For all US Foreign companies, I would rather do business with a IPSP who DOESN'T fall into that VISA USA bullshit.

You are saying that VISA INTERNATIONAL will not allow US companies to process in another juridiction than the USA. But guess what...

1. US webmasters just have to pay $1500 to open a company wherever the fuck is the other processor. Anyways, if we continue to do business with USA IPSPs we'll have to pay around $2500 for 2 processors (first and backup).

2. Canadians and Foreign webmasters can choose to go wherever the fuck they want, and if they want to be more carefull they just have to incorporate where the Aquiring bank is. It will be CHEAPER than paying the Visa USA fees and the incorporation fees in USA.

rnicey

There are two 'L's in Allah.

Jayson

I really dont feel the $750 is really an issue for most people, and to everyone in the US that is nice and easy.

But the requirements for us overseas webmasters are looking more and more ridiculous all the time. This is where I think you will find most of the anquish is coming from.

The billers involved really should have had a clear statement on EXACTLY what is required from non US webmasters before releasing anything and have options to allow them to keep processing.

You guys have known about this since late July. To be told in October is totally unacceptable.

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rnicey

Actually that's not entirely true. We knew something was coming, but as usual with the big V they didn't clarify until just recently.

For example there was a prety good attendance at the recent ETA show in Seattle for the Visa IPSP talk because there was still so much confusion and ambiguity about the drafts. As soon as we had a solid enough view of it, we passed it on.

I understand the frustration and the anger. You're not the only ones.

Jayson

I would still love to see in writing from all the billers a definitive definition of what is required in the way of US Company and US presense for international webmasters.

Do we just need an employee? Does that employee need to assume any risk like they would if we were to get our merchant accounts (requirements for someone with a US SSN to sign a guarantee).

I have been told several different things from you just need a tax ID and Post Office box(which I already have a US tax ID for my Australian company - so I wouldnt even need a US company), to I need to have someone own at least 1% of the company that is based in the US.

When are we going to see something like this?

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