Or maybeee MORE free porn?

True, but the 1000s are a just a mathematical abstraction - in reality these 1000s are just individuals, who must each on their own overcome the obstacles, which is left behind from each battle won against those who came before them - at some point the risk vs. reward curve will change, and slow down or even stop new individuals from taking over the place.

I don't think AVS traffic converts as good or better than TGP traffic. And when breaking down Tube traffic, if you pull just the US/CA/UK/AU traffic it converts damn near as well as AVS traffic.

You are talking about a massive difference in marketing. TGP's don't offer join forms on every page or gallery, but overall a large TGP creates a large amount of sales each day across the broad range of galleries/sponsors. Where an AVS is more focused into one billing backend of already filtered traffic.

Tubes contain no less quality buyers, you just have a lot more bad-quality countries to filter out. If you focus on the US/CA and such traffic and filter off other traffic sources to areas they can buy. Once the traffic is qualified it easily converts as well as all other traffic sources.

Things have changed in the past, things will continue to change. Just because your ratios aren't as pretty doesn't mean you can't get 10x the sales you once could.

Free porn didn't hurt us, it only helps, even full rips. What is killing is, is the Internet. 5, 8, 10 years ago people had very few things that could pull them away from porn. Now they have 1000's of things, social networks, tubes, rpg games, more focused internet users, and the list goes on and on and on.

The real threat to our business is the same thing it has always been. Bad companies fucking with surfers, spam, scams, toolbars, spyware, all the dirty shit that people have done. This is the real reason it's harder for everyone, not stolen porn.

I'm going to invent Free FREE PORN. Just need to figure out what that means.

I guess I could go the other way too... Paid FREE PORN.

Remember we said that about TGP's, and we still made money. We just have to adjust how we market things.

You can bet one thing, the ones giving away free porn to make a few bucks are not going away. They need the little change they are making!

Only lawsuits will get you where you want to be.

Or bullets.

The movie and music industry has tried this. They have spent hundreds of millions of dollars and didn't even put a .1% dent into the market. And they proved sales will go up with easily available free downloads.

I'm not saying don't go after the easy targets, but thinking that suing would be a solution is just wrong.

IMO, Cheap b/w also has been a major contributor to this problem we have. It's too cheap to be a tubemaster.

Kind of hard for a program to have a class action law suit against it's affiliates. Not to mention 95% of the TGP's these days use nothing but sponsor provided content or FHG's. So it's kinda hard to sue someone for something you gave them to use.

:thumbsup

btw I'm not against getting rid of free porn but lets get realistic. Personally I've made my move away from TGP's for the most part over to blogs. The bigger TGP's I still do run are set up so it's a minimal amount of content with a lot of pre-selling going on.

I'm all for the tried but failed TGP2 format, I think something like that would go a long way to helping, however as it was said. The "Free" genie is already out of the bottle.

I respectfully disagree. Dont tell me full free scenes lead to sales.People looking for free arent buying ask anyone who started a yahoo group built it up to 1000's of members and then tried to sell them something. Ive read your stuff and its great Ive learned alot but you come off like a lobbyist for the tube industry.

Unfortunately we can't turn back the clock. We can look to our past and learn from our mistakes. But we can't go back to the way it was.

I believe a lot of this is because of the low barrier to entry and the global nature of our industry. Obviously you (Dave) and I have high targets for what we want and expect to make. The same can't be said for people in smaller developing countries. For webmasters that live in countries where the average person earns $400 per month anything more than that is doing well for themselves. You ask any North American webmaster if they'd be satisfied with working full time and making $1000 profit a month and they would think you were crazy. However for every american that laughs at $1000/month profit there is a large amount of people that would bust their ass for that money in other countries.

Also, each country has it's own set of rules. While American tgps played by American rules TheHun played by a different set of rules. As a result he listed a lot content and links that many people would never touch. Making him one of the few to provide that content. Today (and for the past 5 years) He's the #1 tgp online.

Anything we are not willing to do for moral, financial or any other reasons there is always someone else willing to do it. Legal action would be a huge first step. The problem is we all wait for someone else to do it for us. Not only that as an industry we are used to seeing high returns on our investments usually high immediate returns. Legal action wouldn't provide that. Any legal battle would cost quite a bit of money and there would never be any quantifiable return on that money. For example if you and I went after Megarotic. There is no doubt it would cost us quite a bit of money to accomplish anything. Then even if we accomplished something we'd never see a financial return on it. I highly doubt we'd ever get a penny from Megarotic. And while ridding them from the web would be good for our industry would you and I see a direct benefit? Nope.

Btw there is another factor at play here.. most of the sites that give away the most content.. Tend to not give a shit about promoting that sponsor. 9 times out of 10 they are selling add space and pushing dating and webcam sponsors.

So you have sponsors whom are starting to cater to these tube sites and give them 3 to 5 min videos.. Yet in reality that tube site owner doesn't give a rats ass if he makes any says with that program.

Blogs started this trend. They would pick companies with the best content (like Dave and Myself) and use our content to push AFF and other companies. Obviously it's no surprise some of the illegal tube companies are former blog owners.

It will never happen,besides people still need to promote galleries to help try to get sales

**edit

** makes any sales with that program..


for my post above..

Seizing their assëts, which would be their domains, could be a nice pay off if turned into either legal tube site or simple PPC :2 cents:

No that wasn't blogs... that was babelogs there is a major diffrence. The fact is the sponsors are the ones letting it happen. You guys are the ones whom allow affiliates to use your content on pages with other sales links.

Personally if I ran a program and spent money on content.. an affiliate would not be aloud to use my content on pages with any other promo's. Meaning no text ads, or banners from other programs on the same page my content is being used.

Do that and Im' sure they will damn sure either stop using your content or start caring how well they convert on your program.

Thinking you as the content producer has to "change with the times" is utter BS. It's your content you make the rules.

I'm not in support of Tubes, I'm in support of logic.

Forums are far greater numbers than tubes, they are private, and they have scripts to mask referring urls. They post passwords and full length movies, entire photo sets, and so on. Paysites get hits from them, daily. I market on them and can and have produced 100+ sales from one single forum in a day.

People should start asking paysites how type-in traffic sales are doing. Man, it's damn hard to find many paysites that have had a drop in type-in sales. Even though webmaster traffic and sales are down.

If paysites takes the time to look, they will often find the sites with the highest stolen content counts, actually produce the most type-in sales and traffic. The more "free content exposure" from any traffic source a paysite gets, produces more type-in sales.

Paysites are pointing fingers because they can't explain why ratios/sales have slipped. The free content give aways and rips is what is holding them, they need to look in other areas to find what the problem is.

Regulation is the key.

I absolutely fucking hate blogs that just link every single post to a FHG. It wouldn't be THAT bad, except most of the blogs I see are only promoting one or two sites. So you end up with 500 FHG's promoting one site, which is more than enough for a freeloader to wack off to.

Come on you assholes, put two or three images up that lead to individual pages with the full-sized image, a banner, a text link, and some SEO.

I didn't read ANY of this thread before posting this, I'm too cool for school.

Nobody said AVS/AEN is dead or killed. We still do great. We just aren't growing the way we were years ago due to all the free shit. Visa had nothing to do with it.

I know, I remember. You bought the biggest house on your block but I won't get into that. :thumbsup

12.95 a month, over 100K sites to access with about 50 images each and an exclusive content, members are in the AVS is shafting the member. What are you on? :1orglaugh Not counting the Platinum sites that had to have over 100 Images each.

Thank you, very well said. Most of them are still members. :thumbsup

I agree, But the Genie is out of the bottle and met a nice lady Genie and had a shit load of baby's. But as the music business is learning trying to stuff that Genie back in the bottle is 1000 times harder than it was letting it out.

NosMo

Very true about the music industry.

Very true man...

This all free porn shit started with fucking TGPs and then MGPs asking for 3mb per clip to submit to their sites...

Now Tubes... And people like Fris aka "Serious Business" opening new Tubes on a daily basis...

We must kick out of the biz that kind of people. They are hurting the biz.

That's why there are so many 3rd world webmasters.

West European webmasters and North-American webmasters can't compete with 3rd world webmasters.

A 3rd world webmaster can work 20 hours a day and earn 800 dollars and live like a king. But a 1st world webmaster can't do shit with 800 bucks per month and thus quits and goes work for McDonalds while the 3rd world keep in the business. :pimp

Absolutely. I only realized this once I started TwistysCash. Most of our affiliates are non american.

I already explained that lol, the AVS sites I joined back in the late 90's didnt have anywhere near the niche stuff I was after (or was promised) - so it did kinda suck. Doesnt sound like it sucked for others though.

What am I on????? I dunno, some nostalgia trip for better days.

I didn't read your reply, my bad. Strike what I had said...:thumbsup

I'm not saying AVS/AEN is dead, just changed. But lets drop that.

I want to focus on this part if you would; "We just aren't growing the way we were years ago due to all the free shit."

Free shit, isn't what is slowing your growth. It's not even a measurable factor since it can be proven that it benefits your bottom line by providing sales you would have never previously had.

Let's say you do 1000 sales a day. What if I told you I could duplicate everything you have, and do another 1000 sales a day for you? What if it was 300 sales a day? What if I duplicated it 50 times, maybe each can do 50 sales a day, now we are at 2500 sales daily.

Now.. What if your goal as a company was to market each one in a unique direction than all the others. How many sales do you think you could get now? You would be able to move and saturate unknown traffic areas faster and larger than ever seen before.

Your problem isn't free content. Your problem is your thinking to small. The change was huge, our industry just didn't move forward at all. Think of your entire network, growing/working like compound interest and all your free content issues go away.

It all works around that idea. Stolen content can benefit you if learn how to make it work for you, rather than you working to stop it.

That's a good sized post :)

True, free porn on these tube sites is killing this pps business overall.:(

In a perfectly competitive market, Marginal Revenue = Price = Marginal cost.

With nearly infinite demand and a huge economy of scale, the marginal cost = price approaches zero.

Right now the only reason people are paying for porn AT ALL is because of asymmetrical information.

What you are suggesting is collusion, but game theory shows that there will always be someone with a business model built on giving away at least a certain amount of (legal) content for free.

So, long story short, besides all of the illegal business models (which will not persist in the long run), free models will always exist along side paid models and consumers will always pay for something they value.

Lol...Dave, site owners have promoted free porn since 1994 :-) free trailers, sample videos, pics, etc......and if your referring to tube sites, well, its a new revolutionary way of all the 1000's of MGP's with interaction with the consumers submitting their owns videos....oh thats basically the whole hype about everyone wanting to be the next American Idol .....its all good....when there are drastic changes, there is usually lots of mistakes also by people who may not know what their doing....it will all fix up by itself....this happened with p2p and other new changes in the past....

will never happen.

too many bros with free porn sites.

plus, imagine if every program said you cant use our stuff to give away. what you'd have is all the small people out there give up their content because the traffic guys with free porn still have the traffic.


you can't bring back the bullet once its been fired. its out there forever.

I agree about the tours, and a few sample pictures. That is what we do and what we allow our webmasters to do. But we never allowed hardcore and to see the real deal, they had to join. Now you type in Big Boob Blonde with a dick up her ass and bamn. It's all over the place.

But I agree, it's out there and just like the music industry, we need to adapt to it and find a way to work around it. I was just venting.