This is pissing me the FUCK OFF. Rude clients. - GoFuckYourself.com

dropped9 · 02-09-2008, 09:08 PM

I am tired of clients coming to me, asking me for a quote, and then telling me to wait 15 minutes.

15 minutes later, they come back and tell me...

"If you can make a quick design right now and I like better then other guy I pay you"

Are you fucking serious? Get a fucking clue. I am not going to be pinned up agaisnt another design like that...

Lately I have been running into the most rude and obnoxious people on icq about designs.

Fucking unbelievable!!!!!!!!!

dropped9 · 02-09-2008, 09:09 PM

I am tired of clients thinking they can piss all over us.

Yes I expect some sort of payment up front.

Do I look like a n00b?

Spunky · 02-09-2008, 09:20 PM

Can I get a quote?

dropped9 · 02-09-2008, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunky

Can I get a quote?

Spunky · 02-09-2008, 09:23 PM

Gordon G · 02-09-2008, 09:32 PM

Maybe its because your designs suck.

Miguel T · 02-09-2008, 09:33 PM

That sucks buddy, gone through the same things a few months ago with some douchbag..

Dirty F · 02-09-2008, 09:34 PM

Backless, can you make me a banner for 5 bucks right now?

PornMogul · 02-09-2008, 09:38 PM

If you can make a quick design right now and I like better then other guy I pay you

Big_D · 02-09-2008, 09:38 PM

just hit you up on icq for some real work and no bullshit

Silly Guy · 02-09-2008, 09:43 PM

i think we had quite a good and quick convo about banners about 6 months ago...

worked out more than fine

Deej · 02-09-2008, 10:19 PM

I take a ton of clients on without money up front...

It ALL depends on who and what I know...

Dirty Danza the other day, quick job, paid after...

One client that i had never heard of their program and all i found was an announcement of their launching... they got their work done in a day with watermarks for approval and got the good shit when i got my cashed check...

If i have heard of the client and have seen any clout in my couple years at gfy then they get their goods...

if I dont or ive seen anything bad on the boards, you get the prey pay option... ran chaldoray off for 20 bucks once...

congeniality ...

it helps in most cases...

I dont have any outstanding debts to take up with anyone... well... theres a couple... ( YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE ) (just kidding)

i can understand your issue at hand though...

I just pass on those... I dont compete unless were both paid for drafting ...

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 02-09-2008, 11:05 PM

I tell about 80% of people that want me to design for them to piss off.

This does them the favor of...

A: Wasting my time and thiers.
B: Unable to afford it anyways.

I always doa glance at who the company is and do not take no names.

This is how I do business.

Ninja Frank · 02-10-2008, 12:03 AM

Dude, i want a gnarly tour, the best ever, flash videos, built in content manager.. but i have no money, come on man... do it for 75% off your price and i promise once we have more sites in a year you'll get the job on those i swear. Can you have it ready by tomorrow morning? Come on, this other guy said he can do it for $2.99... why do you need to charge $1000? Whatever.

GAMEFINEST · 02-10-2008, 12:41 AM

that sucks man...

Barefootsies · 02-10-2008, 01:02 AM

A lot of rip offs on both sides of the tracks. I have had designers flake, or rip me off in the past. It's like babysitting.

Now, if it's a smaller gig. I 'may' consider putting down a small portion on the project. But you are not going to get 75% until it's completed.

On larger projects that I know are going be lengthy in time frame, and tweaks, modifications, and ongoing support... you will get NONE down. I will put a percentage in escrow so you can look at it if you like. But that's it.

If you do a good job, keep your time table, and hit the benchmarks mutually agreed to when we started. I MIGHT break you off some % at the half way point. But even then, it will depend on you actually keeping the time commitments prior to that point. No delays of any kind.

On any project now, I ask for REAL TIME LINES and tell you this up front. If it's going to take a month because of your work load. Tell me that. Not a week. If you blow your week, do not expect me to pay you the 100%.

Again, I get this all out in the beginning now a days. Too many flakes and scammers. I do not look for the cheapest. Only the best. I want real time lines, and work done AS SPECIFIED and AS AGREED prior to starting work.

Always be willing to walk away from a bad deal. It will save you a million times over when dealing with designers and programmers. I am paying. I am the boss. I give you the guidelines, and you can meet them or not. If not, no skin off my balls. I move on to the next one.

fluffygrrl · 02-10-2008, 02:56 AM

Problem with designs is this : Any human being can, in principle, design as well as any other. It's a matter of talent, not of speaking english or having been born anywhere in particular.

As such, you can find just as good a designer in India, Canada, Pakistan, Australia, Germany, Egypt etc.

Just, some people pay 2000 a month in rent and some others 1200 and some others 500 and yet others 50 or 20.

This, however, IS a function of what language you speak and where you been born etc.

In short. Get a real job or compete for conditions on the global market.

Sad, innit ?

Red Ezra · 02-10-2008, 02:58 AM

fuck that

mrwilson · 02-10-2008, 03:02 AM

that sucks dude, i know the feeling.
There are so many dicks about these days its unreal.

DjiXas · 02-10-2008, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headless

I am tired of clients coming to me, asking me for a quote, and then telling me to wait 15 minutes.

15 minutes later, they come back and tell me...

"If you can make a quick design right now and I like better then other guy I pay you"

Are you fucking serious? Get a fucking clue. I am not going to be pinned up agaisnt another design like that...

Lately I have been running into the most rude and obnoxious people on icq about designs.

Fucking unbelievable!!!!!!!!!

Haha, that sucks and you are right.

dropped9 · 02-10-2008, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

A lot of rip offs on both sides of the tracks. I have had designers flake, or rip me off in the past. It's like babysitting.

Now, if it's a smaller gig. I 'may' consider putting down a small portion on the project. But you are not going to get 75% until it's completed.

You see I am talking about orders under $100.

We arent talking about thousand dollar orders here... LOL

BVF · 02-10-2008, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headless

You see I am talking about orders under $100.

We arent talking about thousand dollar orders here... LOL

Kinda sucks doing lowball design jobs when you had all of those 'sites' with all of that 'uber traffiks' that you were bragging about before....

Oracle Porn · 02-10-2008, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headless

Do I look like a n00b?

your designs look like they have been done by one thats for sure.

Barefootsies · 02-10-2008, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headless

You see I am talking about orders under $100.

We arent talking about thousand dollar orders here... LOL

I hear ya bawla. But i have small fry, and bigger jobs I need done. Hence, I covered both bases. I did not know you were just doing the low end.

dropped9 · 02-10-2008, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

I hear ya bawla. But i have small fry, and bigger jobs I need done. Hence, I covered both bases. I did not know you were just doing the low end.

I am not just doing the low end. I am saying that the low end is what usually complains the most.

dropped9 · 02-10-2008, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BVF

Kinda sucks doing lowball design jobs when you had all of those 'sites' with all of that 'uber traffiks' that you were bragging about before....

Go fuck a crack whore loser.

k0nr4d · 02-10-2008, 07:48 AM

I've had to fire a few clients myself for being rude

dropped9 · 02-10-2008, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oracle Porn

your designs look like they have been done by one thats for sure.

If these look noobish to you, then hell yes!!!! I design like a n00b!

BVF · 02-10-2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headless

Go fuck a crack whore loser.

It sure is more profitable than making banners and whining about orders under $100....

Chump..

Klen · 02-10-2008, 08:01 AM

Headless howmuch do you charge for 640x480 banners ?

dropped9 · 02-10-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BVF

It sure is more profitable than making banners and whining about orders under $100....

Chump..

Actually I am not whining about an order. I am point out how cheap fucks are usually the ones to bitch about everything.

dropped9 · 02-10-2008, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KlenTelaris

Headless howmuch do you charge for 640x480 banners ?

I pinged you on icq... hit me back

LadyMischief · 02-10-2008, 08:40 AM

Honestly, I don't know why you're surprised lol. There are jerks out there all the time trying to get something for nothing. Just avoid those types of clients and find the ones that will keep coming back again and again and paying on time. It takes a while but I'm sure you'll get there as long as you deliver.

dropped9 · 02-10-2008, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

Honestly, I don't know why you're surprised lol. There are jerks out there all the time trying to get something for nothing. Just avoid those types of clients and find the ones that will keep coming back again and again and paying on time. It takes a while but I'm sure you'll get there as long as you deliver.

It's not that I am surprised... I was just venting last night about it...

Spyce · 02-10-2008, 09:11 AM

Take 50% up front and 50% upon delivery - that way, once you commit to do the work for them, they're also committed to finish paying the bill.

BVF · 02-10-2008, 09:29 AM

I have to admit the banners ain't bad...However, that doesn't excuse you from further ridicule from myself.

CyberHustler · 02-10-2008, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BVF

I have to admit the banners ain't bad...However, that doesn't excuse you from further ridicule from myself.

BAKO · 02-10-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headless

If these look noobish to you, then hell yes!!!! I design like a n00b!

Barefootsies · 02-10-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headless

I am not just doing the low end. I am saying that the low end is what usually complains the most.

Oh, I would concede your point there.

I come across it on many things in the online game. The no money piss ants bitch the longest and loudest. Always trying to low bid you assuming you are desperate enough to accept.

It's WAY worse in mainstream, but you get it in the content game as well. People with no loot giving you laughable, insulting offers.

candyflip · 02-10-2008, 11:24 AM

For every rude one you have, you've got one who was unsatisfied and just didn't say or do anything because it wasn't worth the hassle.

dropped9 · 02-10-2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by candyflip

For every rude one you have, you've got one who was unsatisfied and just didn't say or do anything because it wasn't worth the hassle.

You also have the clients who provide crappy content with no logo psds too. I always love those kind.

You have to try to get lemon aid from lemons sometimes.

;)

Hazlewood · 02-10-2008, 10:26 PM

you are fuckin headless, why would someone buy something that isnt finished or good? get a fuckin clue

Barefootsies · 02-10-2008, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by candyflip

For every rude one you have, you've got one who was unsatisfied and just didn't say or do anything because it wasn't worth the hassle.

CDSmith · 02-10-2008, 10:56 PM

cheapass19 (12:31 pm): "Can u give me a quote? on ____ # of banners"
Headless (12:31 pm): "Sure hang on"
Headless (12:32 pm): "I can do it for $75 bucks"
cheapass19 (12:47 pm: "If you can make a quick design right now and I like better then other guy I pay you"
Headless: (12:47 pm): "It doesn't work that way, talk to me when you're serious."
cheapass19 (12:48 pm): "so..that a no?"
cheapass19 (12:51 pm): "hello?"

HEADLESS HAS LEFT THE BUILDING

That's how it needs to go down man. :D

Barefootsies · 02-12-2008, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

HEADLESS HAS LEFT THE BUILDING

That's how it needs to go down man. :D

CDSmith · 02-12-2008, 11:26 PM

oooooh.... got me good. :D

D Ghost · 02-12-2008, 11:29 PM

damn dude sorry to hear that

Dagwolf · 02-13-2008, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headless

Oh no, not Spidey!

Violetta · 02-13-2008, 01:38 AM

just keep telling them to fuck off

Angry Jew Cat - Banned for Life · 02-13-2008, 01:49 AM

i hate all my clients, but that's what they are there for. to be irritating, hound you over insignificant little things, ask a million dumb newb questions, and fuck you around. But you gotta love them for it, THEY ARE PAYING YOU AFTERALL. If you're not used to dealing with any of this by now you deserve to get screwed around. If someone isn't serious, you turf them early and don't let them bother you anymore. go find good repeat clients who aren't a pain in the ass and make sure you keep them happy...

02-09-2008, 09:08 PM	#1
dropped9 Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Your moms box Posts: 26,727	This is pissing me the FUCK OFF. Rude clients. I am tired of clients coming to me, asking me for a quote, and then telling me to wait 15 minutes. 15 minutes later, they come back and tell me... "If you can make a quick design right now and I like better then other guy I pay you" Are you fucking serious? Get a fucking clue. I am not going to be pinned up agaisnt another design like that... Lately I have been running into the most rude and obnoxious people on icq about designs. Fucking unbelievable!!!!!!!!!

02-09-2008, 09:20 PM	#3
Spunky I need a beer Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ♠ Toiletville ♠ Posts: 133,944	Can I get a quote? __________________ *YOUR INFORMATION HERE*

02-09-2008, 09:23 PM	#5
Spunky I need a beer Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ♠ Toiletville ♠ Posts: 133,944	__________________ *YOUR INFORMATION HERE*

02-09-2008, 09:33 PM	#7
Miguel T ♦ Web Developer ♦ Industry Role: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Full-Stack Developer Posts: 12,472	That sucks buddy, gone through the same things a few months ago with some douchbag.. __________________ Full Stack Webdeveloper: HTML5/CSS3, jQuery, AJAX, ElevatedX, NATS, MechBunny, Wordpress

02-09-2008, 10:19 PM	#12
Deej I make pixels work Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: I live here... Posts: 24,386	I take a ton of clients on without money up front... It ALL depends on who and what I know... Dirty Danza the other day, quick job, paid after... One client that i had never heard of their program and all i found was an announcement of their launching... they got their work done in a day with watermarks for approval and got the good shit when i got my cashed check... If i have heard of the client and have seen any clout in my couple years at gfy then they get their goods... if I dont or ive seen anything bad on the boards, you get the prey pay option... ran chaldoray off for 20 bucks once... congeniality ... it helps in most cases... I dont have any outstanding debts to take up with anyone... well... theres a couple... ( YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE ) (just kidding) i can understand your issue at hand though... I just pass on those... I dont compete unless were both paid for drafting ... __________________ Deej's Designs n' What Not Hit me up for Design, CSS & Photo Retouching Icq#30096880

02-09-2008, 09:09 PM	#2
dropped9 Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Your moms box Posts: 26,727	I am tired of clients thinking they can piss all over us. Yes I expect some sort of payment up front. Do I look like a n00b?

02-09-2008, 09:32 PM	#6
Gordon G So Fucking Banned Join Date: May 2006 Location: Seems To Be Here Now Posts: 646	Maybe its because your designs suck.

02-09-2008, 09:34 PM	#8
Dirty F Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 59,204	Backless, can you make me a banner for 5 bucks right now?

02-09-2008, 09:38 PM	#9
PornMogul Confirmed User Join Date: May 2007 Location: LA Posts: 1,495	If you can make a quick design right now and I like better then other guy I pay you

02-09-2008, 09:38 PM	#10
Big_D CRAZY MOFUKKA Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,296	just hit you up on icq for some real work and no bullshit

02-09-2008, 09:43 PM	#11
Silly Guy Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,421	i think we had quite a good and quick convo about banners about 6 months ago... worked out more than fine

02-09-2008, 11:05 PM	#13
AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE best designer on GFY Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IALIEN.COM - High Definition Video and Photographic Productions -ICQ 78943384 Posts: 30,307	I tell about 80% of people that want me to design for them to piss off. This does them the favor of... A: Wasting my time and thiers. B: Unable to afford it anyways. I always doa glance at who the company is and do not take no names. This is how I do business. __________________ NAKED HOSTING FTW!11 I'm On The INSANE PLAN $9.95/mo! \| The Alien Blog Adult News Worth Reading Updated Daily \| Content For Sale! 641 PICS 216 MINUTES OF VIDEO $350.00 \|ICQ: 78943384 \| Last edited by AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE; 02-09-2008 at 11:07 PM..

02-10-2008, 12:03 AM	#14
Ninja Frank Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 108	Dude, i want a gnarly tour, the best ever, flash videos, built in content manager.. but i have no money, come on man... do it for 75% off your price and i promise once we have more sites in a year you'll get the job on those i swear. Can you have it ready by tomorrow morning? Come on, this other guy said he can do it for $2.99... why do you need to charge $1000? Whatever.

02-10-2008, 12:41 AM	#15
GAMEFINEST Make STACK$ Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: sexy time Posts: 14,437	that sucks man... __________________ Compound interest.

02-10-2008, 01:02 AM	#16
Barefootsies Choice is an Illusion Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Land of Obama Posts: 42,635	A lot of rip offs on both sides of the tracks. I have had designers flake, or rip me off in the past. It's like babysitting. Now, if it's a smaller gig. I 'may' consider putting down a small portion on the project. But you are not going to get 75% until it's completed. On larger projects that I know are going be lengthy in time frame, and tweaks, modifications, and ongoing support... you will get NONE down. I will put a percentage in escrow so you can look at it if you like. But that's it. If you do a good job, keep your time table, and hit the benchmarks mutually agreed to when we started. I MIGHT break you off some % at the half way point. But even then, it will depend on you actually keeping the time commitments prior to that point. No delays of any kind. On any project now, I ask for REAL TIME LINES and tell you this up front. If it's going to take a month because of your work load. Tell me that. Not a week. If you blow your week, do not expect me to pay you the 100%. Again, I get this all out in the beginning now a days. Too many flakes and scammers. I do not look for the cheapest. Only the best. I want real time lines, and work done AS SPECIFIED and AS AGREED prior to starting work. Always be willing to walk away from a bad deal. It will save you a million times over when dealing with designers and programmers. I am paying. I am the boss. I give you the guidelines, and you can meet them or not. If not, no skin off my balls. I move on to the next one. __________________ Should You Email Your Members? Link1 \| Link2 \| Link3 Enough Said. "Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

02-10-2008, 02:56 AM	#17
fluffygrrl So Fucking Banned Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,187	Problem with designs is this : Any human being can, in principle, design as well as any other. It's a matter of talent, not of speaking english or having been born anywhere in particular. As such, you can find just as good a designer in India, Canada, Pakistan, Australia, Germany, Egypt etc. Just, some people pay 2000 a month in rent and some others 1200 and some others 500 and yet others 50 or 20. This, however, IS a function of what language you speak and where you been born etc. In short. Get a real job or compete for conditions on the global market. Sad, innit ?

02-10-2008, 02:58 AM	#18
Red Ezra redezra.com Industry Role: Join Date: May 2004 Location: Vegas Baby! Posts: 4,680	fuck that

02-10-2008, 03:02 AM	#19
mrwilson mrwilson 2.0 Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: ICQ: 465406783 Posts: 5,122	that sucks dude, i know the feeling. There are so many dicks about these days its unreal.

02-10-2008, 07:48 AM	#27
k0nr4d Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 9,229	I've had to fire a few clients myself for being rude __________________ Mechanical Bunny Media Mechbunny Tube Script \| Mechbunny Webcam Aggregator Script \| Custom Web Development

02-10-2008, 08:01 AM	#30
Klen Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Little Vienna Posts: 32,235	Headless howmuch do you charge for 640x480 banners ?

02-10-2008, 08:40 AM	#33
LadyMischief Orgasms N Such! Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oakville, Ontario Posts: 18,135	Honestly, I don't know why you're surprised lol. There are jerks out there all the time trying to get something for nothing. Just avoid those types of clients and find the ones that will keep coming back again and again and paying on time. It takes a while but I'm sure you'll get there as long as you deliver. __________________ ICQ 3522039 Content Manager - orgasm.com [email protected]

02-10-2008, 09:11 AM	#35
Spyce Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: US Posts: 335	Take 50% up front and 50% upon delivery - that way, once you commit to do the work for them, they're also committed to finish paying the bill. __________________ Spyce Our content feeds, your design - now starting at only $0.49 per gb - NO MINIMUMS!

02-10-2008, 09:29 AM	#36
BVF Black Vagina Finder Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Midwest Posts: 13,975	I have to admit the banners ain't bad...However, that doesn't excuse you from further ridicule from myself. __________________ Black Pussy Click On Mr Cosby..CCbill, 60/40, 136 FHG's....The Cos Loves Black Ghetto Pussy!!

02-10-2008, 11:24 AM	#40
candyflip Carpe Visio Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: New York Posts: 43,064	For every rude one you have, you've got one who was unsatisfied and just didn't say or do anything because it wasn't worth the hassle. __________________ Spend you some brain. Email Me

02-10-2008, 10:26 PM	#42
Hazlewood Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,555	you are fuckin headless, why would someone buy something that isnt finished or good? get a fuckin clue __________________ Skype: hazegsm

02-10-2008, 10:56 PM	#44
CDSmith Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: My network is hosted at TECHIEMEDIA.net ...Wait, you meant where am I located at? Oh... okay, I'm in Winnipeg, Canada. Oops. :) Posts: 51,460	cheapass19 (12:31 pm): "Can u give me a quote? on ____ # of banners" Headless (12:31 pm): "Sure hang on" Headless (12:32 pm): "I can do it for $75 bucks" cheapass19 (12:47 pm: "If you can make a quick design right now and I like better then other guy I pay you" Headless: (12:47 pm): "It doesn't work that way, talk to me when you're serious." cheapass19 (12:48 pm): "so..that a no?" cheapass19 (12:51 pm): "hello?" HEADLESS HAS LEFT THE BUILDING That's how it needs to go down man. :D __________________ *Promote Wildmatch, ImLive, Sexier.com, and more!!* ALWAYS THE HIGHEST PAYOUTS: Big Bux/ImLive SIGNUP ON NOW!!! Put some PUSSYCA$H in your pocket. ICQ me at: 31024634

02-12-2008, 11:26 PM	#46
CDSmith Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: My network is hosted at TECHIEMEDIA.net ...Wait, you meant where am I located at? Oh... okay, I'm in Winnipeg, Canada. Oops. :) Posts: 51,460	oooooh.... got me good. :D __________________ *Promote Wildmatch, ImLive, Sexier.com, and more!!* ALWAYS THE HIGHEST PAYOUTS: Big Bux/ImLive SIGNUP ON NOW!!! Put some PUSSYCA$H in your pocket. ICQ me at: 31024634

02-12-2008, 11:29 PM	#47
D Ghost null Industry Role: Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 9,820	damn dude sorry to hear that

02-13-2008, 01:38 AM	#49
Violetta Affiliate Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 28,735	just keep telling them to fuck off __________________ M&A Queen

02-13-2008, 01:49 AM	#50
Angry Jew Cat - Banned for Life (felis madjewicus) Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: In Mom & Dad's Basement Posts: 20,368	i hate all my clients, but that's what they are there for. to be irritating, hound you over insignificant little things, ask a million dumb newb questions, and fuck you around. But you gotta love them for it, THEY ARE PAYING YOU AFTERALL. If you're not used to dealing with any of this by now you deserve to get screwed around. If someone isn't serious, you turf them early and don't let them bother you anymore. go find good repeat clients who aren't a pain in the ass and make sure you keep them happy...