Paypal Says They Will charge the Visa fees too. - GoFuckYourself.com

ZoiNk · 10-04-2002, 09:54 PM

I just got a reply from Paypal, and here is an exert from the email:

---
"I work with primary adult merchants over here at PayPal. I know many webmasters are very concerned about this Visa issue that has come up. This process will effect anybody who is in the adult digital content business. Visa is making PayPal pay a fee for any adult merchant we process for. We will have to pass that fee onto the adult merchant. We will not make any money on this fee and charge a higher fee like some other processors, but we are very unhappy about this (as I am sure you are), but our hands are tied behind our back. This is the time to pick the best processor out there. I don't know who you are using right now to process your transactions, but PayPal is the cheapest, largest, and best known processor out there!

[Rest of Message Edited]

-----

StacyCat · 10-04-2002, 10:05 PM

"Visa is making PayPal pay a fee for any adult merchant we process for. We will have to pass that fee onto the adult merchant. We will not make any money on this fee and charge a higher fee like some other processors"

So, only the 500 is mandatory by Visa? The rest is pure profit by the billing companies? Didnt someone mention price fixing in a previous thread? If the 250 isnt mandatory, yet every processor has the exact same fee, and even announced the fee in a joint e-mail, isnt that illegal?

ZoiNk · 10-04-2002, 10:07 PM

I believe the $250 has to be paid to the processing BANK, and Paypal if I remember correctly is considered a bank, so they would be paying themselves, hence why it could be $500 and not $750 initial fee.

ZoiNk

Fletch XXX · 10-04-2002, 10:08 PM

Paypal is not considered a bank. Which is why it runs into its problems, acting like one.

RonC · 10-04-2002, 10:13 PM

ZoiNk

You are correct. All IPSP have processing (Acquiring) banks. They added fees on top of Visa's fee to us. The banks now have a huge amount of new additional tasks to get all this information up to Visa, and make sure that IPSP are in full compliance.

Paypals email does not say what their fee will be, so I guess we will all just have to wait and see what their bank will charge them.

ClevelandSlim · 10-04-2002, 10:20 PM

Zoink... RonC...

help me understand.
if i pay "ibill" $750, $500 goes to Visa, and $250 goes to ibill's bank. okay, what happens when i decide "ibill is suckin ass right now and i wanna process with jettis" ? do i gotta pay jettis' bank $250?

fucking sounds like to me that what ever processor is collecting the $750 just wants to pocket $250 off of the webmasters. cuz visa's fee has jack shit to do with the bank of my processor...

what's up?

RonC · 10-04-2002, 10:28 PM

This is the part that a lot of people are missing

The $750 fee that is paid is given to the IPSP bank. Bank pays Visa and takes their money. If you switch processors the new IPSP has to pay the $750 fee again.

Here is the kicker. If your IPSP switches banks after 6 months and goes to a new bank. Someone has to pay that $750 over again to the new bank.

In the past some IPSP and merchants have used this tactic of going from bank to bank to avoid Visa Fines and start over.
Visa has now closed that loop hole

ClevelandSlim · 10-04-2002, 10:38 PM

thats bullshit Ron !!!
LOL

first, the $500 is for visa, and the $250 for the banks trouble to get the webmaster's company info "paperwork" to visa. so what the fuck changes as far as visa, and that webmaster, if the processor uses a new bank? i aint paying no processor to cushion their move to a new bank you got me fucked up.

what visa outta do, is just get rid of you processors and just conduct business direct with the fuckin webmasters!!!

RonC · 10-04-2002, 10:42 PM

I agree. still does not change the facts.

TheFLY · 10-04-2002, 10:42 PM

How how the hell are they going to monitor this? All you got to do is put your signup page on a domain that is not porn related... Set a cookie in the surfer's browser before he leaves the porn site -- then after the surfer signs up -- read the cookie -- send him back to the porn site... If he doesn't have cookies -- he never hits the paypal signup page in the first place -- tell him he needs cookies to sign up -- or something like that.

Anyway that way there's no way to trace the paypal account back to the porn site... Unless one of the members calls bitching LOL -- but that's where the Family comes in...

ClevelandSlim · 10-04-2002, 10:45 PM

Ron show me the facts you read saying if a webmaster wants to use a new processor after he pays the initial $750, that he will have to $750 again to switch processors. the fee is for visa, not the processor.

the facts on this whole issue are getting more and more distorted...

i just heard that, if someone has bought a porn membership or trial in the past, and logs on after Nov 15th and doesn't purchase another one, visa will cast lots and credit an unlucky adult webmaster with a chargeback.

i also found out that if visa catches you with a web 900 join link you will automatically get credited 3 chargebacks

and last but not least, if one of your surfers makes a purchase with an online check, from an account where said surfer also has a visa capable check card, but didn't use the visa check card... that webmaster will get creditted automatically with 15 chargebacks

LOL

ExpertSeries · 10-04-2002, 10:50 PM

StacyCat, interesting observation. Yes, only $500 and $250 goes to VISA. At PSW, 100% of the additional $250 and $150 go straight through our company even though we have to make sure our clients are following the regulations, handle additional customer support, prepare the data so that visa can have reports, etc. Thus, we're actually eating our new internal operational costs. Regardless, we refuse jump on the profit pony at our clients expense and we're still trying to see if we can trim off any more of the fees for clients.

However, other companies may plan to actually divide the extra fees (reread the original 3-company announcement, I believe they stated exactly who would be getting a cut of their administrative fees).

Originally post by TheFLY:
"that's where the Family comes in..."

Fly, that is some funny shit.

ClevelandSlim · 10-04-2002, 10:57 PM

why don't we get forms direct from visa and say fuck sending the forms in to the processor. processor's always talking about what work they gotta do.

how about all the fucking web 900 failure emails i have to answer in the morning's cuz ibill can't fucking deliver the service i am paying them too ? and the ibill reps, all they fucking do is tell the customer "notify the webmaster" i'm paying you fuck heads for that?

gimme a break

RonC · 10-04-2002, 11:03 PM

It is complicated but first you have to understand how Visa and MasterCard work.

There are merchants, acquiring banks, and visa

Merchants (ccbill, guy who has his own account with bank)
acquiring banks (bank one, wells fargo)
Visa/MC (card assoc)

Merchants have the relationship with banks.
Banks are the only people that have relationships with Visa.

Say you wanted to get your own merchant account not an IPSP account. As Mitch said earlier you would have to pay $1500 to bank one. If you decided to open a new account at wells fargo you would have to pay another $1500.

Visa has followed the same logic. If an IPSP opens a bank account they have to pay the IPSP fees. $5k + $750 per sponsored merchants.

What everyone is forgetting is that Visa will probably register 75,000 to 100,000 webmasters at $750. That is 75 million dollars that the banks and Visa will get. This is a good thing on one hand. The more money that Visa gets the harder it becomes for those people inside Visa that would just like to see Visa drop adult all together.

Paul Markham · 10-04-2002, 11:09 PM

I spoke to Paypal customer services about this new Visa developement, they knew nothing about it.

I have yet to hear from Paypal, but am I considered Business to Business?

The whole thing is confusing.

This will lose some of the smaller newer players, increase the power of the bigger sites and AVS systems. It will do little to reduce fraud.

chaze · 10-04-2002, 11:11 PM

I think Ron is either a liar or misinformed.

It's obvious that the billing companies are trying to cash in and Paypal is the only admiral company not taking advantage of this.

I think all adult sites should start converting to Paypal, they will be 90% of all adult processors someday. Start now and get ahead of the game. Just my

Sorry Ron

Jayson · 10-04-2002, 11:17 PM

The paypal message said for Adult transactions but if I read the CCbill info correctly this is for all high risk merchants including digital download etc.

SpeakEasy · 10-04-2002, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chaze
I think Ron is either a liar or misinformed.

It's obvious that the billing companies are trying to cash in and Paypal is the only admiral company not taking advantage of this.

I think all adult sites should start converting to Paypal, they will be 90% of all adult processors someday. Start now and get ahead of the game. Just my

Sorry Ron

I totally agree. Ron and the other Idiot cc processors are looking to make a bundle off all of this, and if they deny it their fuckin full of shit. This Ron dude and most of the other processors involved are basically as worthless as tits on a bull...

Jayson · 10-04-2002, 11:21 PM

RonC - hoping you are still reading this thread - and this is off topic - but can we get some classification as to what you consider a US presense - your faq here http://64.38.213.196/ says we need a US business address, US tax id and bank account. CCbill advised a colegue here in Australia that a Tax ID was all that was needed. We can get issued US EIN tax ID's as Australian companies - I already have one infact. Will this suffice or do we need a company in the US. Some clarification on this would be really helpful right about now. (If you have already answered here somewhere else I appologise - I have missed it.)

Mr.Fiction · 10-04-2002, 11:22 PM

Who wants to predict the day that Pay Pal gets out of adult? Now that the eBay deal is done, the writing is on the wall.

ozzymandius · 10-04-2002, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chaze

I think all adult sites should start converting to Paypal, they will be 90% of all adult processors someday. Start now and get ahead of the game. Just my

Sorry Ron

Yeah except for the fact that PayPal was recently acquired by eBay and the final sale was just completed today. eBay has already publicly stated that they will start to purge PayPal of both gaming AND adult and have it focus on auctions.

PayPal's days for doing adult are stictly limited and I don't care what some mid-level sales manager there sez.

from reading all the posts on this whole crazy thing these last two days, seems the smart money is on globill, jettis or (if you have the financials) getting your own merchant account.

but then there is alsways ger-bill. Let's hear it for rodent billing!!

Whoooohoooo!

Honeyslut · 10-04-2002, 11:26 PM

Paypal takes money directly out of the customers's bank account and uses a visa number as a back up ?

A fee for this ? That's bullshit..

mistressofnite · 10-04-2002, 11:26 PM

"Visa is making PayPal pay a fee for any adult merchant we process for"

If the gentleman who started this thread is to be believed (sorry no offense meant), than adult businesses ARE being targeted by VISA, as I previously inquired about. Interesting. I don't know how they could get away with this, quite frankly.

Honeyslut · 10-04-2002, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mistressofnite
"Visa is making PayPal pay a fee for any adult merchant we process for"

If the gentleman who started this thread is to be believed (sorry no offense meant), than adult businesses ARE being targeted by VISA, as I previously inquired about. Interesting. I don't know how they could get away with this, quite frankly.

ASSOFF threatened them ? LOL

Fletch XXX · 10-04-2002, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mistressofnite
"Visa is making PayPal pay a fee for any adult merchant we process for"

If the gentleman who started this thread is to be believed (sorry no offense meant), than adult businesses ARE being targeted by VISA, as I previously inquired about. Interesting. <i>I don't know how they could get away with this, quite frankly. </i>

So who's gonna sue em?

mistressofnite · 10-04-2002, 11:37 PM

Let's all fucking sue them. I'm game.

Choker · 10-04-2002, 11:46 PM

Quote:

If the 250 isnt mandatory, yet every processor has the exact same fee, and even announced the fee in a joint e-mail, isnt that illegal?

Even a hint of price fixing is investigated by the FTC. It is extremely serious stuff. Many people are still serving prison terms for price fixing. If 3 processors got together at a meeting and one guy said "I don't know about you guys, but we are going to have to charge 200$ extra fee" then this would be price fixing. Whenever a group of businesses get together and discuss thier prices, this is considered price fixing. If Mcdonalds called up Burger King and said "On May 1st we are going to change our 99 cents menu to 1.99$" then they just attempted to fix the price and off to jail they will go.

Socks · 10-04-2002, 11:51 PM

There would have to be a big class-action suit, and to take on visa is no small and cheap task.. The big players like this decision, so I doubt it will happen. I think it's sad that the people who control a large share of the market already will lay down on this. To like this decision is a short term profit-taking measure, not a long term thriving industry attitude. You guys see already how quickly a big idea fizzles out and stops selling like it used to. How will letting the small guys suffer help in the long run?

Socks · 10-04-2002, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RonC

What everyone is forgetting is that Visa will probably register 75,000 to 100,000 webmasters at $750. That is 75 million dollars that the banks and Visa will get. This is a good thing on one hand. The more money that Visa gets the harder it becomes for those people inside Visa that would just like to see Visa drop adult all together.

Ron, I love your company's system, but where are you pulling this 75,000 to 100,000 number? If there are in many estimes 40,000 paysites, then think of how many companies own 50-100 each, even smaller niche guys have 20 sites now.. There are a lot of webmasters without a direct relationship with an IPSP too. Also didn't you just say that VISA only gets $500 not the whole $750? So let's say the number is really 20,000 paysite COMPANIES, and it's really only $500.. That's $10m. Now if it pisses off enough webmasters to stop using their visa cards every year, it doesn't seem like Visa would really be looking at that side of things so much, no?

10-04-2002, 09:54 PM	#1
ZoiNk Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 2,370	Paypal Says They Will charge the Visa fees too. I just got a reply from Paypal, and here is an exert from the email: --- "I work with primary adult merchants over here at PayPal. I know many webmasters are very concerned about this Visa issue that has come up. This process will effect anybody who is in the adult digital content business. Visa is making PayPal pay a fee for any adult merchant we process for. We will have to pass that fee onto the adult merchant. We will not make any money on this fee and charge a higher fee like some other processors, but we are very unhappy about this (as I am sure you are), but our hands are tied behind our back. This is the time to pick the best processor out there. I don't know who you are using right now to process your transactions, but PayPal is the cheapest, largest, and best known processor out there! [Rest of Message Edited] ----- __________________ "People can have the Model T in any color - so long as it's black." - Henry Ford

10-04-2002, 10:07 PM	#3
ZoiNk Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 2,370	I believe the $250 has to be paid to the processing BANK, and Paypal if I remember correctly is considered a bank, so they would be paying themselves, hence why it could be $500 and not $750 initial fee. ZoiNk __________________ "People can have the Model T in any color - so long as it's black." - Henry Ford

10-04-2002, 10:08 PM	#4
Fletch XXX GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: that 504 Posts: 60,840	Paypal is not considered a bank. Which is why it runs into its problems, acting like one. __________________ Want an Android App for your tube, membership, or free site? Need banners or promo material? Hit us up (ICQ Fletch: 148841377) or email me fletchxxx at gmail.com - recent work - About me

10-04-2002, 10:20 PM	#6
ClevelandSlim Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Atlanta Posts: 199	Zoink... RonC... help me understand. if i pay "ibill" $750, $500 goes to Visa, and $250 goes to ibill's bank. okay, what happens when i decide "ibill is suckin ass right now and i wanna process with jettis" ? do i gotta pay jettis' bank $250? fucking sounds like to me that what ever processor is collecting the $750 just wants to pocket $250 off of the webmasters. cuz visa's fee has jack shit to do with the bank of my processor... what's up? __________________ If you have ANY custom content needs, hit me up on icq # 118463907 and we can take care of you.

10-04-2002, 10:38 PM	#8
ClevelandSlim Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Atlanta Posts: 199	thats bullshit Ron !!! LOL first, the $500 is for visa, and the $250 for the banks trouble to get the webmaster's company info "paperwork" to visa. so what the fuck changes as far as visa, and that webmaster, if the processor uses a new bank? i aint paying no processor to cushion their move to a new bank you got me fucked up. what visa outta do, is just get rid of you processors and just conduct business direct with the fuckin webmasters!!! __________________ If you have ANY custom content needs, hit me up on icq # 118463907 and we can take care of you. Last edited by ClevelandSlim; 10-04-2002 at 10:41 PM..

10-04-2002, 10:05 PM	#2
StacyCat Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,167	"Visa is making PayPal pay a fee for any adult merchant we process for. We will have to pass that fee onto the adult merchant. We will not make any money on this fee and charge a higher fee like some other processors" So, only the 500 is mandatory by Visa? The rest is pure profit by the billing companies? Didnt someone mention price fixing in a previous thread? If the 250 isnt mandatory, yet every processor has the exact same fee, and even announced the fee in a joint e-mail, isnt that illegal?

10-04-2002, 10:13 PM	#5
RonC Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 236	ZoiNk You are correct. All IPSP have processing (Acquiring) banks. They added fees on top of Visa's fee to us. The banks now have a huge amount of new additional tasks to get all this information up to Visa, and make sure that IPSP are in full compliance. Paypals email does not say what their fee will be, so I guess we will all just have to wait and see what their bank will charge them.

10-04-2002, 10:28 PM	#7
RonC Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 236	This is the part that a lot of people are missing The $750 fee that is paid is given to the IPSP bank. Bank pays Visa and takes their money. If you switch processors the new IPSP has to pay the $750 fee again. Here is the kicker. If your IPSP switches banks after 6 months and goes to a new bank. Someone has to pay that $750 over again to the new bank. In the past some IPSP and merchants have used this tactic of going from bank to bank to avoid Visa Fines and start over. Visa has now closed that loop hole

10-04-2002, 10:42 PM	#9
RonC Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 236	I agree. still does not change the facts.

10-04-2002, 10:42 PM	#10
TheFLY So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: http://www.thefly.net/ --- Quit your job and live off steady traffic. Posts: 11,856	How how the hell are they going to monitor this? All you got to do is put your signup page on a domain that is not porn related... Set a cookie in the surfer's browser before he leaves the porn site -- then after the surfer signs up -- read the cookie -- send him back to the porn site... If he doesn't have cookies -- he never hits the paypal signup page in the first place -- tell him he needs cookies to sign up -- or something like that. Anyway that way there's no way to trace the paypal account back to the porn site... Unless one of the members calls bitching LOL -- but that's where the Family comes in...

10-04-2002, 10:45 PM	#11
ClevelandSlim Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Atlanta Posts: 199	Ron show me the facts you read saying if a webmaster wants to use a new processor after he pays the initial $750, that he will have to $750 again to switch processors. the fee is for visa, not the processor. the facts on this whole issue are getting more and more distorted... i just heard that, if someone has bought a porn membership or trial in the past, and logs on after Nov 15th and doesn't purchase another one, visa will cast lots and credit an unlucky adult webmaster with a chargeback. i also found out that if visa catches you with a web 900 join link you will automatically get credited 3 chargebacks and last but not least, if one of your surfers makes a purchase with an online check, from an account where said surfer also has a visa capable check card, but didn't use the visa check card... that webmaster will get creditted automatically with 15 chargebacks LOL __________________ If you have ANY custom content needs, hit me up on icq # 118463907 and we can take care of you. Last edited by ClevelandSlim; 10-04-2002 at 10:52 PM..

10-04-2002, 10:50 PM	#12
ExpertSeries Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: pswbilling.com Posts: 23	StacyCat, interesting observation. Yes, only $500 and $250 goes to VISA. At PSW, 100% of the additional $250 and $150 go straight through our company even though we have to make sure our clients are following the regulations, handle additional customer support, prepare the data so that visa can have reports, etc. Thus, we're actually eating our new internal operational costs. Regardless, we refuse jump on the profit pony at our clients expense and we're still trying to see if we can trim off any more of the fees for clients. However, other companies may plan to actually divide the extra fees (reread the original 3-company announcement, I believe they stated exactly who would be getting a cut of their administrative fees). Originally post by TheFLY: "that's where the Family comes in..." Fly, that is some funny shit. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

10-04-2002, 10:57 PM	#13
ClevelandSlim Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Atlanta Posts: 199	why don't we get forms direct from visa and say fuck sending the forms in to the processor. processor's always talking about what work they gotta do. how about all the fucking web 900 failure emails i have to answer in the morning's cuz ibill can't fucking deliver the service i am paying them too ? and the ibill reps, all they fucking do is tell the customer "notify the webmaster" i'm paying you fuck heads for that? gimme a break __________________ If you have ANY custom content needs, hit me up on icq # 118463907 and we can take care of you.

10-04-2002, 11:03 PM	#14
RonC Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 236	It is complicated but first you have to understand how Visa and MasterCard work. There are merchants, acquiring banks, and visa Merchants (ccbill, guy who has his own account with bank) acquiring banks (bank one, wells fargo) Visa/MC (card assoc) Merchants have the relationship with banks. Banks are the only people that have relationships with Visa. Say you wanted to get your own merchant account not an IPSP account. As Mitch said earlier you would have to pay $1500 to bank one. If you decided to open a new account at wells fargo you would have to pay another $1500. Visa has followed the same logic. If an IPSP opens a bank account they have to pay the IPSP fees. $5k + $750 per sponsored merchants. What everyone is forgetting is that Visa will probably register 75,000 to 100,000 webmasters at $750. That is 75 million dollars that the banks and Visa will get. This is a good thing on one hand. The more money that Visa gets the harder it becomes for those people inside Visa that would just like to see Visa drop adult all together.

10-04-2002, 11:09 PM	#15
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	I spoke to Paypal customer services about this new Visa developement, they knew nothing about it. I have yet to hear from Paypal, but am I considered Business to Business? The whole thing is confusing. This will lose some of the smaller newer players, increase the power of the bigger sites and AVS systems. It will do little to reduce fraud. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

10-04-2002, 11:11 PM	#16
chaze Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 9,752	I think Ron is either a liar or misinformed. It's obvious that the billing companies are trying to cash in and Paypal is the only admiral company not taking advantage of this. I think all adult sites should start converting to Paypal, they will be 90% of all adult processors someday. Start now and get ahead of the game. Just my Sorry Ron

10-04-2002, 11:17 PM	#17
Jayson Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: CZ Posts: 554	The paypal message said for Adult transactions but if I read the CCbill info correctly this is for all high risk merchants including digital download etc. __________________ Sapphic Cash - We Do It Right

10-04-2002, 11:21 PM	#19
Jayson Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: CZ Posts: 554	RonC - hoping you are still reading this thread - and this is off topic - but can we get some classification as to what you consider a US presense - your faq here http://64.38.213.196/ says we need a US business address, US tax id and bank account. CCbill advised a colegue here in Australia that a Tax ID was all that was needed. We can get issued US EIN tax ID's as Australian companies - I already have one infact. Will this suffice or do we need a company in the US. Some clarification on this would be really helpful right about now. (If you have already answered here somewhere else I appologise - I have missed it.) __________________ Sapphic Cash - We Do It Right

10-04-2002, 11:22 PM	#20
Mr.Fiction Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Free Speech Land Posts: 9,484	Who wants to predict the day that Pay Pal gets out of adult? Now that the eBay deal is done, the writing is on the wall.

10-04-2002, 11:26 PM	#22
Honeyslut Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Ass Valley, Ca Posts: 6,436	Paypal takes money directly out of the customers's bank account and uses a visa number as a back up ? A fee for this ? That's bullshit.. __________________ http://nakedlunchnews.comWhat's up ? Naked Lunch News !

10-04-2002, 11:26 PM	#23
mistressofnite Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 64	"Visa is making PayPal pay a fee for any adult merchant we process for" If the gentleman who started this thread is to be believed (sorry no offense meant), than adult businesses ARE being targeted by VISA, as I previously inquired about. Interesting. I don't know how they could get away with this, quite frankly.

10-04-2002, 11:37 PM	#26
mistressofnite Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 64	Let's all fucking sue them. I'm game.

10-04-2002, 11:51 PM	#28
Socks Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 8,475	There would have to be a big class-action suit, and to take on visa is no small and cheap task.. The big players like this decision, so I doubt it will happen. I think it's sad that the people who control a large share of the market already will lay down on this. To like this decision is a short term profit-taking measure, not a long term thriving industry attitude. You guys see already how quickly a big idea fizzles out and stops selling like it used to. How will letting the small guys suffer help in the long run?