Nailed it. :thumbsup

Noooooo. you guys are OHHHHHH so wrong it is not funny. That is what will amuse you.

I can't get insurance. they drug test. I smoke Weeeeed. :pimp :pimp :pimp
And my daughter was denied health insurance by Blue Cross because she was born with a heart murmur.

I pay for all our expenses out of pocket.

This topic goes multiple pages every time it's raised on the board. One example I'm always fond of posting is that of my mother who had a bad reaction to the discontinuation of a prescription med she had been on for many years. Back in 2002 she had to be hospitalized for 2 months. Tell me now, for someone in the USA who can't qualify for health care insurance (many elderly don't) how much would a 2 month stay in hospital cost? I'm talking many tests and all the trimmings.

From what I know of it it would have been over $100K.

But being that she is Canadian living in Canada, the day she was released after recieving excellent care that is equal to the level of care offered anywhere, there was NO bill, the balance owing was $0.00.

I'm sorry to you naysayers but there is simply nothing better than that. I as a Canadian don't have $300, $500 or even up to $1000 a month payments for health insurance coverage. And contrary to what a lot of people think, mostly none of whom actually live here, I am not "taxed to death" either. That is a flat-out misnomer. We Canadians pay very close to the same percentages on our income tax as people in the US do. The difference is we don't have an extra payment in the form of health insurance.

Argue with me all you want but I would not trade our system for yours for all the tea in China. Those of you saying you don't want a similar system are, quite frankly, nuts in my view. No offense, but you really shouldn't knock it until you try it.

I'm not saying ours or any universal system out there is perfect. Far from it. But I do know that if something were to happen to me tomorrow and I needed to go to emergency, that no matter what happens, surgery, CT scan, MRI, whatever... my bill at the end of it would be NOTHING.

I have no idea why anyone would want to argue against that.

Hmmm. They look pretty high to me when you combine the province + federal rate. Income over about $125k is taxed at 39-47% depending on province . Guess that's how they keep the population down in New Brunswick.

But then again, I think Californians are taxed to death. I intentionally moved to a state with no state income tax.

I don't understand what all those Canadian taxes are for. According to the Canadian Budgetary Office - and I looked this up- here are the top budgetary items.

1. Universal Healthcare
2. Molson Billboards on all roads from America (The "country" you call USA)
3. Canadian Mounties
4. Frozen Ice in Summer For Hockey Games
5. Canadian Military (Ooops, I mean "peacekeepers")
6. Standing Army in Case Quebec Secedes
7. Celsius to Fahrenheit Conversion Charts for Stupid Visiting Americans
8. Official "I hate the American Government, not the people" bumper stickers.
9 Texbooks that claim that Canadians burned DC when it was really the British
10. Free Rush concerts (well, we wish!)

Thats the gist of it right there. I'm not convinced its such a good idea to start handing more of our money to the people who have made careers out of money mismanagement. Call me crazy....

I'll consider UHC if/when the US Gov can prove they can spend money responsibly. As in never.

Main scope of what Pfizer does is not pills or other medicaments, what's more they are buying licenses for cheap meds and they are not overpricing them that much as far as I am aware. I assume they do the most of the money on medical accessories.

Hehe, you can get insurance if you smoke pot, my dad, wife, me, and all my friends would be boned many years ago if that was the case.

And just think, if you had UHC you would have only paid $100's instead of $1000's for your kids medical issues. What are you going to do if you can't afford his meds?

As I said my wifes pills are still $100's a month, without insurance it would be $1600 or so each month in pills. The same pills that we can drive to Mexico and buy for $20.

Having UHC would deregulate the medical industry, something that is very much needed.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

You forgot a very important item:

- Feed for the moose

:)

When saying that the Canadian system has long wait times and crap like that, you need to consider that we've gone thru about 16-20 years of a really tight belt in order to take control of our deficit and national debt... It's taken a long time but as can be seen by our strong economy and dollar, the lowering of GST etc., it has really begun to pay off.. Take into account that we're pumping oil out into the world at an really high rate these days and we're doing pretty damn well up here and things will only get better.. and all of that with "free" healthcare for the masses...

Don't forget taht if you DO get seriously sick down in the US, that insurance everyone would prefer over UHC will get cancelled on you and then your fucked.

It can't be just discretionary spending. If it was then defense would be the biggest slice of the pie, and the interest on the debt wouldn't be in there. That's not "discretionary"

Something that's important to note though is that the 41% on "social services" and 19% on health care are medicare and social security combined. Those are paid for with dedicated taxes (SS actually runs a surplus currently) so that's now how your income tax dollars are apportioned.

Those items aren't "welfare" they are things that people have paid for their whole lives through dedicated payroll taxes.

Peaches is right.
Poor people have insurance, it's called medicaid.

The problem is the people in the middle, who don't work for an employer who offers health insurance, or who have a pre-existing condition and are denied coverage for that reason, etc.

Right now what happens is those people use hospital emergency rooms as their primary care vehicle.
They don't pay the bill and we're stuck with it through state and local taxes that go to hospitals.

So we're already paying for the healthcare of people who don't have insurance, we're just paying through the backdoor.
At least if we had a universal system everyone would have to contribute in some form or fashion. This way the people in the middle don't get a free ride and it's much cheaper for us to have these people visit a doctor's office regularly to get their blood pressure checked than it is to have them show up in the ER with a stroke.

The benefits of a federal system are ENORMOUS, this is why every industrialized nation in the world except the U.S. has one.
The arguments against are really nothing more than PROPAGANDA, drilled into you by right wing radio nuts and idiots like Ann Coulter.

As always I find it amusing when someone who has never lived here and isn't Canadian presumes to tell me how it is with *my* taxes. :D

Figure out what YOU pay in income tax, then add in all the money you fork over for health care insurance (include the extra you pay for your family if you have any such dependants) and then tell me who pays more. PLUS... doesn't your health care coverage only cover costs up to a certain point? I hear from certain American friends of mine that most plans only cover you up to 80%. If that's your case as well then on a $50K hospital stay you'd still be on the hook for $10K.

Please, don't even try to argue which system is better. I'm sure the USA has people in place who are smart enough to take the best of the Canadian/UK/Swedish etc systems and develop an even better system than any of them. Right?

:D

One thing we could learn from Canada.

You can have universal health care and a low overall tax burden if you don't feel the need to be the world's police officer.

If we could keep our noses out of other countries' business and not have to measure our dicks by the size and strength of our military we would be alot better off.

You could probably pay for UHC by just stopping all the pork barrel ear mark bridges to no where spending...

I'm definitely all for getting rid of earmarks, no question. I don't think that politicians should be allowed to use federal tax dollars for no reason other than to secure their own re-election.

However, that's a small fraction of our overall budget and wouldn't even put a dent in health care. :(

why people think you should have to trust your employer to purchase your health insurance is beyond me. They will never have your best intrests in mind.

Over a 25 year period that I owned my own business I paid not only for good insurance on each employee but I also paid for workers comp. Basically double insuring each worker. Now retired after paying insurance for 25 years and NEVER having a claim except cold medicine, I have a hard time finding anyone wanting to insure a guy that's 50 years old.

Why, well I'm now in a high risk age catagory. Well no shit! But what about the 25 years I paid when I wasn't? That is the sad thing about "old" people and health coverage. Most HAVE paid for it their entire lives, just never used it.

To get NO credit for the years/decades you have paid is the real crux of the problem for many.

it is a shitty situation .. But unless UHC is in place, you need to manage to keep your insurance valid from a young age till later.

But from what I understand, in the USA, the insurrer can increase the premium as he wishes, or simply cancel the coverage.

That is very scary .... I, as a canadian, and over 50, don't have to worry about this ... My healtcare is covered by my taxes.

My dad , still alive, had 2 major heart attacks ... It cost him ... nothing and he is VERY wealthy .... He is under very regular checkups, tests, ans so on ...

Yes, he paid for it thru his taxes (and still is paying taxes on his high income ) but it is worth way more then he pays ... as well as for us.

The USA spends all its money on Military it has none left to take care of its health care system. And to provide the health care system of other countries I do believe it would need to raise taxes. Hell right now its in deficit $200 billion a year just cause of wars and such, let along trying to pay for its citizens own health care.

You have to seperate the social security and at least some one the medicare from the budget parts that are paid by Income taxes because SS comes 100%from FICA taxes.

Exactly. My dad has been in the hospital for 5 months now. He's had over 5 MRIs done, 5 CT scans, 2 LPs, 4 different operations, 4 different rooms, 14 different doctors including 4 specialist etc.. The bill?? ZERO! and he will be there for even longer.

Now, if this was in the US this would have cost him a fortune. SO ya, some fixing needs to be done to the US health system. Our isn't perfect either, but I'll take ours over theirs.

Would you be willing to have a slightly higher chunk come off of your paycheque in order to have universal health care?

Before you answer that, consider this: You would no longer have to pay a monthly fee for health insurance. From what I've seen posted of insurance fees among Americans I'm going to say most people pay anywhere from $300/mth up to over $1000/mth. I'm betting that most (assuming most are right in the head that is) would choose a slight increase in deductions and NOT have the monthly fee any longer.

Also consider that should you need surgery or an extended stay in hospital there would no longer be a bill nor anything owing, no "deductible" amount owing etc. I've heard and read first-hand accounts of people getting a bill for $20K because their health insurance provider only covers 80% of the total. Never again under UHC.

And no longer would people currently deemed "not eligible" have to worry about not getting insurance coverage. Everyone would be covered, period.

To me the choice is obvious.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that that much medical treatment in the US would cost in the $250K range.
(and rising)

Even if he had health insurance I bet his deductible amount would be $50K +

I was shocked when it came out that a lot of that money that was spent was never approved to be spent by anyone... Pretty clear theft from the people IMO...

But I WANT to keep my same insurance and doctors. So I'd still be paying the $363 I pay a month AND my taxes would go up.

Now, why would I make THAT choice??!

People keep saying "But you could KEEP YOUR OWN INSURANCE". Well, that's great. And then I could pay to cover everyone else. YIPEE!

Personally I think refusing care to people who are here illegally would be an excellent step in the right direction of reforming healthcare, but that's mean, right? :Oh crap

What's interesting is that the "big corporations" that so many people complain about are actually taking a lot of this into their own hands (as it should be).

Walmart has several prescriptions for $4 now and I think some of the other large stores have followed.

Most if not all of the drug companies offer free/discounted drugs for people who meet certain income criteria. In addition, they give enough samples to your doctor where if you truly can't afford them, you can usually get them for free. The first 2 years I had an individual policy it didn't cover my migraine medications. But my Dr. just gave me a bag full every visit. Worked great.

Now Walmart, Walgreens, Target, CVS and maybe some other stores are opening clinics in their larger locations which will be affiliated with the local hospital. This will allow those who normally fill up the ER with simple complaints to buy a loaf of bread and see the doctor all in one visit ;)

And most insurance companies offer catastrophic insurance for a relatively low amount to keep you from losing your home over a $200K medical bill.

You're already paying to cover everyone else, you just don't know it.

People show up at emergency rooms everyday without insurance, and then don't pay the bill.
Your property taxes, sales taxes, state income taxes, etc go to fund these hospitals.

Right now we have 47 million uninsured people who would have to pay some sort of tax or premium or whatever you want to call it under a universal system.....right now they pay nothing, you're paying for them.

That issue is actually more complicated than you think. In principle I agree with you but for reasons of public health and not starting epidemics, it's best that everyone be able to get medical treatment when necessary, regardless of whether or not they have a green card.

Why would you need extra insurance? I don't, and I can see whatever doctor I want.

The problem with illegals would have to be addressed, yes. But in Canada it IS addressed... that being anyone who shows up at one of our hospitals and isn't covered by our health care system has to pay for treatment.


Peachy I just finished saying you wouldn't need to pay that insurance fee any longer, I can't make it any clearer. I'll say again, under the Canadian system I don't pay any monthly insurance fee yet I am 100% covered.

How can you honestly argue against that? :upsidedow

The confusion here is that you're talking about the Canadian system and she's talking about the plans being proposed by the Democratic candidates.

Under those plans you would have the option of keeping whatever insurance you have, or you could buy into the federal plan.
People under certain income levels would be given subsidies so they could afford the price of the plan.
The subsidies will be paid for by letting the Bush tax cuts expire on the top 1% of income earners in the country.

This way anyone who wants health insurance can get it, and it will create a national "risk pool" to keep the price down. Also, private plans would then have to compete with the government plan on price and quality, which would drive prices down and quality up in that market as well.

It's a big complex mess of an issue, but it doesn't have to be. Once people stop worrying about "having to pay for everyone else" and just realize that a UHS covers you and your family completely without having to pay extra insurance fees, well, that's really all that matters to each individual, no?

The USA is almost at a crossroads on this issue. You can either build a workable new system that covers everyone and removes any further instances of horror stories like those contained on Moore's movie, or you can continue on clunking away with your existing mess.

And before arguing ad nauseum with me because you still think what you have now is better, answer me this: Why is it that out of all the friends, aquaintances, and relatives I know who are US citizens, nearly ALL of them envy the Canadian system (especially so when the hospital bills start rolling in). Why? Are they all stupid whereas you are smart? Or maybe they see past their own situation and can consider all those Americans who currently can't qualify for health insurance?

One other thing some of you may be overlooking --- think about it... all those "idiots" out there who refuse to pay for private insurance and are running the risk of facing massive bills if they need an appendix removed or have a serious illness etc would have no choice but to contribute to a universal healthcare system. :D

Does that not offset some of the concern over others not paying?

CD, what YOU don't seem to understand is that I wouldn't take my dogs to a government run hospital in the states! IOW, I would get what I know a lot of you Canadians get, because I worked for a Canadian company and anyone who could afford it, had it, and that's the supplemental insurance that allows you to choose your doctors/hospitals, you're not in a waiting line for simple surgery, etc.

Let me repeat: I DO NOT WANT TO RECEIVE US GOVERNMENT HEALTHCARE. I've already seen how screwed up the Medicare and Medicaid system is.

So again, I'd be paying for the supplemental insurance AND higher taxes. Just doesn't seem like something I'm going to be interested in.

And geeze, I can just imagine the uproar in the US if they demanded payment upfront from illegals, lol. :1orglaugh But at least then some of the hospitals in the border towns could stand a better chance of staying open.

As long as they incorporate into the system some way to make sure that everyone is covered (and contributing money to the system) then it sounds as though someone is at least on the right track, or close to it.

I think some people haven't paid attention to what those like L-Pink have said. It's fine to disagree with change when you can afford the private insurance premiums and you are still young enough to qualify for coverage... but I think some tunes will change in years to come as those people get older and find they are no longer covered. Won't happen to everyone I'm sure, but it does happen to some, as is obvious in L-Pink's post.

What then?

I forsee a change coming in the US. I hope it's done right and proves to be a huge improvement, but with so much dissent among your ranks it strikes me as a long shot at best.

You have to eat an elephant one bite at a time man.

Obama said it perfectly, if he was designing a health care system from scratch he would make a single payer system.
However, we can't just throw out everything we have now and start over. That would be a nightmare. (not to mention it would scare the shit out of most people)

So the plans being proposed cover everyone and are probably the first nail in the coffin of the for-profit HMO business.

You worked for a Canadian company so you now know how it is here? Come on Peachy, really now. Why is it that I am telling you how it is here and you aren't buying it?

Fact is I can choose my hospital and I don't have any extra coverage of any kind. I am free to go to the hospital of my choosing and seek medical care. I can stop seeing my regular doctor and phone some other clinic and make an appointment with any other doctor if I so choose.

I'm baffled at the misconceptions some of you south of the border types have about Canada. :D

You seem to think universal healthcare is run the same way in every country that has it. You couldn't be more wrong.

In Australia everyone can get a basic level of health care without paying OR you can choose to pay for private health insurance and get your choice of doctor, your own room in a private hospital etc etc... AND you get a 30% rebate on the cost of your private insurance premium from the government.

I fear the government, but I fear private enterprise more. I don't want profit being the bottom line when it comes to matters of life and death. Health care is too important.

I would advise stop thinking of it as "GOVERNMENT HEALTHCARE"... we don't. There aren't private hospitals and "Government" ones up here. In Winnipeg for example we have seven major hospitals, all of varying sizes. A few specialize in certain things like cancer treatment, but all of them provide pretty excellent care.

Maybe a two-tier system would work in the US, I don't know.

Prime example right there. Brilliant. :thumbsup

Truthfully, anyone who thinks the changes we're talking about are going to be anything close to instantaneous is, well... foolish. I would hazard a guess that if it comes at all it will happen over a period of 5-10 years minimum. (and then continue to evolve from there)

Peaches...sounds like you don't want the government involve with any aspect of your life.

True or False?