A site like this will get webmasters back lots of cash, noone wants their name on a site and o get removed they will have to mail money to the webmaster.

Kinda like if you have something bad on your credit report etc.

If I find this to be 100% ok legal wise I will have that site up quick and it will help some webmasters get some extra lost cash.

Seems to me that VISA is just trying to control fraud as well as help the IRS get the monies that they are owed, nothing more nothing less.

I'll donate the domain
take your choice
pornthieves.com
istoleporn.com
chargebackdatabase.com

:1orglaugh

alot of people chargeback because somebody stole their cc...if you would post personal info and then it would come up that the cc was stolen then you have posted an innocent persons info and i would guess that is a big no no...

Just make a page within your member's area with a list of fake names and addresses. It will look real enough to scare those considering charging back, and won't infringe on anyone's privacy or finger an innocent person whose card was truly stolen.

this is like thinking you can stop spammers by striking back in some way. they have far more power to fuck with you and shut you down and effect your business than you do. a spammer for example can decide they dont like you and spam your site to thier list of 30,000,000 "removes" and even webmasters and the worst anti-spammers on the web. being right or wrong is not going to stop your host/credit card processor from shutting you down when they are getting 10,000 complaints a day.

what are you going to do when some smart ass kid decides to keep paying at your site with stolen credit cards 10 times a day for a year? .... first, you wont be able to process credit cards... then what? be satisfied with the idea that you posted some guys name on a web page that has no idea who you are because he was not the one who made that charge?

All of you seem to be addressing this problem at face value...but the overall assumptions are wrong.

Yes there are worse online charge back senerios...are they under the same rules and restrictions.Are the ISPS for online auctions having to go through the same hoops Adult 3rd party companies are ..the answer is no.

All this is is Visa paying back the government for INCREDIBLY lienient banking regulations that they were given by congress.Their pay back is to tighten the noose..the money path.Justice Dept doesnt have the resources to crack downh on obsenity.FTC doesnt have the resources to crack down on fraud.So they want to slow the growth through the billing entities.

10/4/2002 00:00 Jacquie Trahan
[email protected]
0 -$5.99 120 T:106265277
S:1013987296


this dumb ass charged back on me. my one and only chargeback.

I have had a perfect record for 4 months, then some fuckstick charges back the trial instead of canceling. I emailed him telling him his card has been blacklisted with every 3rd part processor on the internet... hope it helps

the requirement of webmasters needing to setup "camp" in the states is illegal and its only a matter of time before they have to change this rule..... but it can take time and that sux!

I'm no expert on chargebacks or credit card fraud. But ten times a day for a year? One kid with stolen credit cards? Is this extreme of an example possible??? Geezus. And yet this type of thing goes on and "Visa" does not do a goddamn thing about it either eh? To help us webmasters that is.

I keep telling myself that next year when Visa goes to court on that debit card case, that something GOOD will happen to help stop fraud. And that new technology will be created to help secure the "digital signature."

And this idea - granted you must keep it legal to work - of posting legit chargeback assholes on a page, well I am ALL for that. I ran a small site and never had one cc chargeback, although I would email the guys whos check payments bounced. Never did get any responses from my "thanks for nothing" emails. Jerks.

Funny thought: All those sites out there that teach you how to "Not pay for porn"....hardy har har. Its time to erect a monster site to teach them HOW to pay for porn.

Hey is there some sort of blacklist with the billing companies of guys who have chargedback in excess in the past??? Do they limit these guys on their chargebacks or what???

And I look at it this way: Have you ever sent in a "free" magazine subscription card and then received one issue in the mail, forget to pay or cancel, and then the next thing you know you're getting a fucking collection bill once a week until you pay the fuckers their $25 or whatever? I know I've done that (oops hehe) and therefore the porn surfers need to do the same thing.

If you don't pay your Playboy bill and they've sent you any issues you have not payed for yet (if they do this) I would assume they will send you a BILL, and try to collect their money.

Couldn't I just take the info on the guys who chargedback and snail mail them a formal BILL? Via US Mail? A threatening collection notice? Cause as of now I wonder if I spent a few minutes typing something out to send I could maybe recover some money. :1orglaugh

The other legal piece of this is pretty interesting.Visa wants information about you through the third party billers but DOESNT want to have a binding contract with you.That way if they decide to cut you off you seemingly have no legal recourse with them,the third party biller shugs their shoulders and points their finger at Visa and says they had to cut you off.

But my guess would be that because Visa,the banks, now has access to your info directly theres an imlied binding contract and their subject to Class action suits.Ones that point out that other high charge back enties,non adult ones,arent subject to the same standards.

Id also say the Third Party contracts need to be rewriten to allow Third Party Billers to pass your personel information on to the banks,much like merchant account information,but you dont get the legal luxury that a direct contract affords it would seem.

Great ideas!

Interesting ideas...here's another one...let's cut off your nose to spite your face...

sure, I can only talk for CCBill, of course, but people that chargeback are put into a database that our fraud scrubbing checks against....If they chargeback once, they are VERY unlikely to be allowed into another CCBill site.

As far as chargebacks go, the reason that it is so hard to fight them is because we have nothing concrete that this particular cardholder made this purchase. Sure, we have their card number, name, address, IP address, etc, but that is all circumstantial?no signature, no pin code, etc. When we get a dispute, we send all the info that we have to the bank to fight it, many still get charged back.

Now, with CVV2 we have noticed a lot of success with disputing chargebacks. The biggest reason that cardholders give for charging back is essentially, ?card not present?
With a CVV2 match, they had to have the card in their possession. By virtue of having the match, the card WAS present.

Oh, it?s great. I was just talking to a lady on the phone yesterday who had tried to chargeback a transaction with the bank, but after our refutal with a CVV2 match, AVS match, IP in the same location, they rejected it. They would not let her chargeback 2 transactions.

After her failure to get the money back from her bank, she was trying to have me refund her?

There is a site thats been set up in the UK for just over a week I believe (Early Warning.org.uk) that seems to be having some small success according to news reports.
Its mostly aimed at 'regular' sites and not adult ones but perhaps the idea has merit ?

Ian

It would be nice if the banks handled e-commerce chargebacks with an e-commerce mentality, and at the very least had the customer initiate the complaint from the web - in which case simple IP matching would emlimiate the dumber crooks from the problem.

In Canada there is companies that report Credit ratings to Lenders, and receive credit history from Lender and Vendors alike, they also if I am not mistaken act as a collection agency.

I am sure if people started getting refused for car loans and being hounded by lowlife collection agencies the majority of them would put a stop to chargebacks.

Porn needs to have a watchdog organization that is forward thinking, hiring some really good planners, technologists, and business people that act on our behalf to FORSEE things like this and to explore technology, and fight with the combined might of all Pornographers unlawful practices like the ones VISA is trying to implement.

www.globaladult.org for example

My :2 cents:

I have read something about this.... The reason why Visa/MC do not want smartcards in the USA... Can not remember why.... I think it has to do with it could put'm out of business.... And also the US Gvt... or the IRS because people could put millions on one and walk out of the country, in there shirt pocket.... Now, if you want to take $10,000 cash out you have to tell them.... Also some years ago.....The IRS has to ok you for a pass port....hehehe bet most of you didn't know that...

what a fucking stupid ass idea. Yeah that's going to work great,
as if ANYBODY would ever join a paysite again if they thought there was a chance the 19 year old jerkoff who runs the shitty website is going to publish his name and what he bought in the local newspaper or on some website.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

One thought is to get IBILL etc. to at least give us the opportunity to react to any charge back requests. At the moment the only time you know about a chargeback is when you see it in your logs.
If we are responsible for chagebacks don't tie our fucking hands behind our backs, let us the webmaster try to do something about it ??
Cindyx:1orglaugh

I actually called ibill and asked what i can do to prevent it, and it was out of their hands, the customer went over ibills head and went straight to his/her bank and got the chargeback.. the really shitty part is ibill doesnt dispute chargebacks. Any joe shmoe can say ' hey, my kid used my card, i didnt authorize this!' and you are fucked. I think ibill needs a database where it lists all people that have charged back, so they can scrub those losers out. They do have a database, but its only for fraud in extreme cases, but think about how many people actually use the same excuse i posted.

Ummm, I think they do...

Actually, you're not far off. I think a better way to do this, is to have an "Auth" page prior to sending the user to the Splash page. The "Auth" page will require all of the following info:

1. First/Last Name
2. Last 4 of Social
3. Billing Address
4. Log IP address
5. Check the "I Agree" box to the site terms.
6. Set a cookie w/ this info, and call it later on the join page.

If all paysites did this, and you still got chargebacks, you could dispute it w/ the CC company, and get it sent back to the customer and charged as "valid".

Once the user hits your "Members" page, log the IP, and timestamp into a database, as "Viewed" by the specific user. You have now accepted payment, and provided a service. There is no way in hell they can dispute it.

Also, on the members page, you can let the surfer know that their information has been recorded and logged into a database, and that any attempt to chargeback will be disputed. And you may persue criminal fraud charges against them if the attempt is made, holding the surfer liable for all court and attorney fees.

Once they make payment and enter the members area... They have accepted the terms of the "binding" contract, and by law must abide by them.

Consider this... You may be thinking that a surfer may want to stay annonymous when surfing porn. However, if they signup... You get all of their info anyways. If the user gets scared off, and tries somewhere else, and gets the same thing at another paysite. And ultimately finds that he/she will HAVE to give that info in order to enter a PaySite, he/she will do it. It may slow signups down for a short while until they come back, but, ultimately... What is more valuable... a surfer who signs up, you make a quick buck, and charges back.... OR, a surfer who decides to TRUST your site, and give you his/her personal info in order to access your site?

Just some stuff to ponder.

Sorry folks..but it's time for a good lot of you to go back (or go for the first time) to Marketing & Business Admin 101. The concept is fairly simple...Charge backs are part of the business. (although, unlike most of you...in most cases, I would say they are the result of screwing the customer). So either you can stop screwing the customer...I would start by removing trials that say you get 3 days..when in true fact, the small print says your really only get 2 days (...cancel 24 hours prior) or my favorite..the "FREE" VIP membership...just give us your cc for "age verification".

Or you can make peace with the fact that
a) VISA will can your sorry ass
b) If VISA doesn't can your ass, you will still lose a lot more in sales from making the customer jump through hoops, then you would from just accepting the fact that refunds and chargebacks happen...and they have to be accounted for when figuring out your ROI.

Believe me, the customer feels every bit as ripped off by the underhanded tactics of most adult web sites. Now there's an idea I would support..an FTC site and Business watch column in one of the national newspapers that allows surfers to post their ripoff experiences with the slime of this industry.

49thParallel what site do you run or promote? And why are you so mad at webmasters?

What you are saying is probably partially true. With Bush/Ascr-oft in office did anyone doubt that they were going to try to fuck with porn one way or another? Amazingly, some adult webmasters actually voted for the very people who want to put them out of business. Look at the judges that they are trying to put on the federal courts - activist right wing nuts. Very sad for America and the first amendment.

first amendment is gone its sad

I was promoting a number of the big sites...until I dug deeper into the T & C of most sites and didn't like what I saw...I started my own site about 3 weeks ago..which is doing considerably well..but yes, I did lose about 75% of my original income...I took about a $9,000 / month cut in income to stand up for my ethics.

The thing that does make me furious with our industry is that there are those of us who want to provide qulaity material along with respect and honest treatment of our customers. Due to the underhanded techniques of many sites, the honest dealing sites don't have a chance. The deals offered by others look far more attractive, due to the underhanded techniques. Then, when the customer gets stung...they'll never come back.

So first, I don't believe in cheating ANY customer..and I don't appreciate the fact that the cheating techniques are ruining this industry. And if you don't think this is causing damage...simply look at the recent VISA regulatory push.

If there was an organization it would be better as well. As in AWMU ... Adult Web Masters Unite. Basically have a lawyer pitch together legal documents to add to sites regarding to if you charge back and received something free, or viewed so much content or surfed so many minutes/hours, then if you charge back you will be gone after, as well as have your name placed on a list.

"This site is part of the Adult Web Masters Unite."

It seems like it would be perfectly legal. I'll offer my server for hosting an organization page, and can put some time into it as well.

Any lawyers have any feedback?

Cheers,
Matt

Well there ya go. :thumbsup

The porn industry rakes in well over 30 billion dollars a year. Visa card is the primary credit card processor for on-line porn. has anyone considered that if we want to be heard to boycot them? The only way to beat Visa at their own game is to stop using them altogether... then lets see how willing they are to work with us.

While I'm at it, while everyone is complaining about too much free porn why has no dared to address the fact that The Hun is probably the worlds most bookmarked free porn site? Are you so dependent on their junk traffic that they should not be included in this 'removal' of free sites?

I'm just an amateur so don't be too hard on me!! LOL

The adult industry suffered from chargebacks before the Internet too, you will find out that even being honest will get you chargebacks.

Why do so many people chargeback 900 and 800 phone sex calls, did they not get what they wanted?

Why do people go to escort agencies and then chargeback?

Why do people feel its ok to give a bad check for adult related product or services?

Adult video stores (offline) have a 5-10% chargeback rate! WHY?

Did these people not get what they wanted?

OR

Did they notice after they jerked off OH MY GOD I just spent 50 bucks to jerk off!

49 I agree that ok some sites are shady but im talking about the regular sites that have chargebacks and yes they do!

49th overtime you will understand what im talking about.

Personally, I think that some of those big sites that brag of their high success rate should take some of their money and invest in the production of a universally accepted, "porn card" which can be aquired through ALL participating sites. It can be made available on all of our join pages.

It's time that our industry started regulating ourselves anyway. Why did we wait this late and why not use this as a wake up call?

...still an amateur just drinkin my Mikes Hard Lemonade and thinkin wild thoughts :)

web guy people dont preplan porn purchases, its done from second to second

Te harry escort man,

Not all porn is purchased on a whim. My following of over 4 years has done just that... they followed me to 4 or 5 different pay per view site before I finally decided to build my own. Ouside of that, most porn users are regular users. They know the system and they will adjust to changes. If they want their porn they will get the card. Do you think porn sales will just stop because we no longer use Visa? lmao thats rediculous!!

Besides, what happended to, "If you build it they will come"? I appreciate your point of view but disagree with your post.

...still drinkin my hard lemonade and feelin like a rebel without a clue :)

"if we bill they will cum"

*handing you a hard lemonade* Cheers!

My point exactly.

Thanks web guy:)