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Old 01-07-2008, 03:54 PM   #1
cleo the pr
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donny long gets a email from a previous enemy

joe laughlin‏
From: dick tracy ([email protected])
Sent: Mon 1/07/08 10:31 PM
To: [email protected]

donny-dude whatever problems we may have had together,I dont even care anymore,I had to respond as I was reading about your fued with joe laughlin and man,I told you 2 years ago (after I directed 2 scenes which you starred in-but about 3 movies worth of footage- all together probably 15-17 scenes total),that that guy was a flake and he'd rip you off...he still owes me $2500 for talent and shooting fees which I have yet to get and then he "lost" the paperwork and changed names on the relases to make dennis the content shooter and witness..dude that guy used to have dennis'3 year old twins in the fucking house when he'd be shooting so he's obviously a peice of shit too..but if you guys are seriously gonna file a lawsuit let me know..i'll be happy to be a part of it..i'd like to get paid after 2 years and having to deal with those fuckin dough bags as well..but i'd really like to see him get his due for ripping alot of people off in this business..I dont really need the money its more of a revenge thing to be totally honest...let me know...late. - C
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Old 01-07-2008, 03:58 PM   #2
mikeyddddd
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That post should certainly help the spam mailers.
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:03 PM   #3
U.R.A.M.F.S
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who Gives A Fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:04 PM   #4
aico
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you should print out that email and use it to wipe your ass better.
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:10 PM   #5
cleo the pr
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looks like more stupid ass people that want to continue to support scum. Guess you all will learn the hard way! Play/ics will be dragged into this next if they keep supporting him like this thread here!




1/7/2008

10:12 AM PST

Banned on GFY, Donny Long Tells Joe Loughlin: See You in Court, Asshole

--on the web
Porn Valley- Apparently Donny Long's banned from posting on GFY.com. Over the weekend, Long's nemesis, Joe Loughlin, posted some recent exchanges he had with Long.

In the back and forth of it, Long says something about suing Loughlin. But no one following the threads could quite make out over what incident Long was talking about and why he would sue.

Then Cleopatra, Long's pr girl, stepped in to comment and clarify [she includes some history behind the feud which was prompted by Long's directing Gullible Teens for Loughlin].

First, here are her remarks followed by the Long-Loughlin exchanges posted by Loughlin on GFY.

Cleopatra writes: Yes this matter is going to court. First off the cuban comment came from Joe, learn to read. Second there was a lot more to the icq than what joe posted. There were alot of things Joe left out. Like the fact that he got donny ban here and gfy is letting him do this.


from
amacontent (01:07 PM) :
ill get you banned from some other boards i think like i did gfy

Cleopatra continues: To anyone against us, we are not going to let anyone do this kind of childishness slander on any board and get away with it. Hopefully gfy admin does something soon before it leaks onto other sites, that they are allowing this to go on.

gfy asked us to keep the bullshit drama off the boards and we have but Joe has still not.

also for anyone that wants know what he [Loughlin] did a year ago here it is off

lukeisback

Donny Long Vs. Pink Kitty

Donny Long emails:

Hey luke please put this up on your site for everyone to read titled "the begining of the end of joe Loughlin and dennis ormen ama/pink kitty".

Once upon a time dennis from ama aka pink kitty came to me when I was shooting for them as talent and he said we like you and your idieas we would like to hire you as our director and have you shoot some dvds for us and we will do a big press release in avn that "donny long" is pink kittys new contract director and that it would also be good for exsposure for me as talent in the biz and that I would learn a lot since I had never held camara before.

Also that my name would be on the box and in the search engine under talent for the movies and under director. I thought, well what can it hurt what the hell. Only problem is that I had heard a lot of bad things about joe and that to watch out because he has stiffed alot of people for money.

see example on pornstarperformance.com titled Joe from AMA.......Burns Talent $500.00 . also I even saw joe yell at the top of his lungs to andrew andrti and threaten to "kick his f---ing ass" one time if he didn't get the f--- out of his office because he was a little late for a shoot which is a bunch of talk. I would love for joe to try that s--- with me!!!!!I have read a lot of stories of him not paying talent and also him being a dick and I told dennis that and also told him if he f---ed me it would be the last person he f---ed because I will f--- him a thousand dollars for every dollar he f---s me.

Dennis replied not to worry, that he came from ohio and bought half of joe's company because of him running it into the ground and he's here now running it and changing everything, like the name for instance (ama to pink kitty.) So dennis seemed cool and I gave everyone the benifit of the doubt, but I told him, because of the known reputation as stated above, that me and them should do only one dvd for now.

I will direct and be talent in and we'll do it right and pay a friend of mine to shoot video and stills since I'm new at that. In addition, that I would get girls to do some content trade for the movie so we could have a low budget, but only would I do that for 50/50 on sales for the dvd because I can get girls to do content without them(Joe & Dennis).

Why should they get a copy? He said, "great", 50/50 was the deal and they would put all their money up front for production. So I went and shot a B/B/G/G, g/g, 2 b/g, and 2 dp,s also both dp scenes were for content and some of the other talent in the other scenes. As I'm completing the movie the last day I get a call from dennis saying joe said he was spending too much on this movie might I add the location was free also a 4 bedroom house I rented and was living in.

So joe was either going to forget everything or only give me 25% now after I had allready put all my time and some of his money in the project and that would mean he got to keep my content for free which is not fair at all so I had no choice but to say ok. Now when we talked about numbers he said the movies he just released had sold 3500 and 3000 pieces at 10 to 12 dollars each through juicy video!!!!!! So I was thinking still good money if I listened to his bulls---!!!!!

After the movie was shot I was to get a copy of all cost from editing to box cover design and so on and after movie sold enough to cover all cost then I would start making money. The movie was shot somewhere around march and it didnt get released till Street Date: AUGUST 29, 2006 GULLIBLE TEENS by Pink Kitty Video / Juicy Entertainment and since then i have asked many times for numbers on sales and cost of the movie from joe and dennis and got nothing but the run around.IF YOU SEARCH GULLIBLE TEENS PORN DVD ONLINE DONNY LONG IS NOT ON THE BOXCOVER OR UNDER TALENT, OR UNDER DIRECTOR.

Also the box was done very poorly, I shot alot of cute teen pix of the younger girls in the movie like Hailey Young and Emily Evermoore in cute little book bags that should have been on the box and were not. The worst pix out of a couple thousand pix got put on the box. ALSO ALOT OF OTHER THINGS I WONT MENTION YET!!! I do want to say the people at juicy video are very nice and very helpful which it is not their job to give me numbers but they did talk with me about it.

So after now not getting a penny and having to play phone tag with joe and dennis which dennis dodges my calls and has had one of his wives give me the run around for over a month, I have no choice but to get nasty!!!!!!!!! there will be a follow up letter about all of this coming soon but as for now the purpose of this letter is 2 things, one to let everyone know who you are dealing with when you deal with them, and second a warning to dennis and joe that if i dont get my money by the end of the week its going to cost them alot more.

remember there are alot of things i know about those guys doing things that can put them in alot of trouble!!!!!!!!!!! go check out the los angeles vice unit that deals with people shooting without permits also agencies that deal with people shooting porn around people your not supose to shoot around. dennis knows what that means and my next post might reveal that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and a bunch of other things i wont mention "yet" I know everyone is reading this and probably thinking thats f---ed up if i start causing them trouble like that but guess what i dont give a F#$%.

i want my f$%^&*( money now and im not going to play the phone tag game anymore. i told Joe in my last email that i hate chasing money and this was going to get nasty!!!!!!!!! I dont want commision anymore i have played tag too much i want to be bought out on rights for the movie!!! and im not talking about 50 or 100 bucks he has made plenty off the movie on the net and his website allready, he told me!!!!!! The only reason I have not pushed this to a civil law suit yet, is because an agreement was typed up by me, that is on my laptop, and Dennis has read and agreed to it, but never signed it because stupidly at that time I did not think anyone woulb be stupid enough to try to f*** me over...throwing rocks at a glass house if you know what i mean.

hopefully they will read this and we can resolve this without going any further. but if not, everyone will now know why I would be more than willing to cause someone so much headache which could turn into costing them a lot of money. ps. everyone reading this please tell me your thoughts and opinions on how I should deal with such losers that have f***** over and ripped off so many people in this business, and what an acceptable amount would be. My email is [email protected]

...hey guys wanted to give everyone a update of the scum bags at ama/pink kitty. since i put up the last post i have got sevaral emails from people that have got f---ed by them and i dont understand why people dont stand up and do something????? here is one email from a guy that wanted to remain unheard

hey Donny, My name is ******, I am the owner of ***, I have had some run-ins with Joe....he tried to extort thousands from me..he is all talk and nothing else.... if you have any questions...please let me know...but I have a restraining order against him and I might be able to help you out... arnold ps..he owes me tons of movies... Thank you, and here is another Hey

avsb bDonny, Its ********, if you remember me i was once a director for Joe and Dennis too and they owe me over 2grand and released movies i shot without my name on them or me getting the profits we agreed on. You know all about what happened to Dick too.... So, welcome to the club man.... go get 'em. -***

Donny is not fucking around and will take anyone down that stands in the way! as you can see people are already steping forward to join the suit
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:12 PM   #6
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Donny Long is a loser and always will be. Go AMA Joe!
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:58 PM   #7
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OMG donny must be a genius!!!!

he got Fluke lord to post an e-mail of his



donny you are truly an Idiot

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Old 01-07-2008, 05:00 PM   #8
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you should print out that email and use it to wipe your ass better.
I knew that was coming, only took three posts,
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:01 PM   #9
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luke ford doesn't own lukeisback.com anymore fyi.

he doesn't write it or own it.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:02 PM   #10
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Ama, how much are you paying Donny?
This idiot just sells your content for you.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:02 PM   #11
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Donny Long is a tard
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:03 PM   #12
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:05 PM   #13
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how is donny's new nick not banned yet?! I think my head is going to pop. I just don't get it.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:06 PM   #14
Forest
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luke ford doesn't own lukeisback.com anymore fyi.

he doesn't write it or own it.
thanx for the head up

just goes to show how much I follow luke

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Old 01-07-2008, 05:12 PM   #15
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I really have no idea who Donny Long is (and I've been in the Industry for 14 years), but by all these recent posts, I know he is someone I just would never do business with. We realized long ago to keep business problems private and never air them in public. Whenever I see someone post nonsense about others, I just feel that could be me and my company if I ever did anything with them and something went wrong.

I am sure that all this recent garbage will keep the more businesslike companies away from him and his company.

Carol xoxoxo
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:14 PM   #16
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so? the size of my dick is a public knowledge
;)
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:17 PM   #17
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man you guys sure know how to beat a dead horse.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:28 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by cleo the pr View Post
looks like more stupid ass people that want to continue to support scum. Guess you all will learn the hard way! Play/ics will be dragged into this next if they keep supporting him like this thread here!




1/7/2008

10:12 AM PST

Banned on GFY, Donny Long Tells Joe Loughlin: See You in Court, Asshole

--on the web
Porn Valley- Apparently Donny Long's banned from posting on GFY.com. Over the weekend, Long's nemesis, Joe Loughlin, posted some recent exchanges he had with Long.

In the back and forth of it, Long says something about suing Loughlin. But no one following the threads could quite make out over what incident Long was talking about and why he would sue.

Then Cleopatra, Long's pr girl, stepped in to comment and clarify [she includes some history behind the feud which was prompted by Long's directing Gullible Teens for Loughlin].

First, here are her remarks followed by the Long-Loughlin exchanges posted by Loughlin on GFY.

Cleopatra writes: Yes this matter is going to court. First off the cuban comment came from Joe, learn to read. Second there was a lot more to the icq than what joe posted. There were alot of things Joe left out. Like the fact that he got donny ban here and gfy is letting him do this.


from
amacontent (01:07 PM) :
ill get you banned from some other boards i think like i did gfy

Cleopatra continues: To anyone against us, we are not going to let anyone do this kind of childishness slander on any board and get away with it. Hopefully gfy admin does something soon before it leaks onto other sites, that they are allowing this to go on.

gfy asked us to keep the bullshit drama off the boards and we have but Joe has still not.

also for anyone that wants know what he [Loughlin] did a year ago here it is off

lukeisback

Donny Long Vs. Pink Kitty

Donny Long emails:

Hey luke please put this up on your site for everyone to read titled "the begining of the end of joe Loughlin and dennis ormen ama/pink kitty".

Once upon a time dennis from ama aka pink kitty came to me when I was shooting for them as talent and he said we like you and your idieas we would like to hire you as our director and have you shoot some dvds for us and we will do a big press release in avn that "donny long" is pink kittys new contract director and that it would also be good for exsposure for me as talent in the biz and that I would learn a lot since I had never held camara before.

Also that my name would be on the box and in the search engine under talent for the movies and under director. I thought, well what can it hurt what the hell. Only problem is that I had heard a lot of bad things about joe and that to watch out because he has stiffed alot of people for money.

see example on pornstarperformance.com titled Joe from AMA.......Burns Talent $500.00 . also I even saw joe yell at the top of his lungs to andrew andrti and threaten to "kick his f---ing ass" one time if he didn't get the f--- out of his office because he was a little late for a shoot which is a bunch of talk. I would love for joe to try that s--- with me!!!!!I have read a lot of stories of him not paying talent and also him being a dick and I told dennis that and also told him if he f---ed me it would be the last person he f---ed because I will f--- him a thousand dollars for every dollar he f---s me.

Dennis replied not to worry, that he came from ohio and bought half of joe's company because of him running it into the ground and he's here now running it and changing everything, like the name for instance (ama to pink kitty.) So dennis seemed cool and I gave everyone the benifit of the doubt, but I told him, because of the known reputation as stated above, that me and them should do only one dvd for now.

I will direct and be talent in and we'll do it right and pay a friend of mine to shoot video and stills since I'm new at that. In addition, that I would get girls to do some content trade for the movie so we could have a low budget, but only would I do that for 50/50 on sales for the dvd because I can get girls to do content without them(Joe & Dennis).

Why should they get a copy? He said, "great", 50/50 was the deal and they would put all their money up front for production. So I went and shot a B/B/G/G, g/g, 2 b/g, and 2 dp,s also both dp scenes were for content and some of the other talent in the other scenes. As I'm completing the movie the last day I get a call from dennis saying joe said he was spending too much on this movie might I add the location was free also a 4 bedroom house I rented and was living in.

So joe was either going to forget everything or only give me 25% now after I had allready put all my time and some of his money in the project and that would mean he got to keep my content for free which is not fair at all so I had no choice but to say ok. Now when we talked about numbers he said the movies he just released had sold 3500 and 3000 pieces at 10 to 12 dollars each through juicy video!!!!!! So I was thinking still good money if I listened to his bulls---!!!!!

After the movie was shot I was to get a copy of all cost from editing to box cover design and so on and after movie sold enough to cover all cost then I would start making money. The movie was shot somewhere around march and it didnt get released till Street Date: AUGUST 29, 2006 GULLIBLE TEENS by Pink Kitty Video / Juicy Entertainment and since then i have asked many times for numbers on sales and cost of the movie from joe and dennis and got nothing but the run around.IF YOU SEARCH GULLIBLE TEENS PORN DVD ONLINE DONNY LONG IS NOT ON THE BOXCOVER OR UNDER TALENT, OR UNDER DIRECTOR.

Also the box was done very poorly, I shot alot of cute teen pix of the younger girls in the movie like Hailey Young and Emily Evermoore in cute little book bags that should have been on the box and were not. The worst pix out of a couple thousand pix got put on the box. ALSO ALOT OF OTHER THINGS I WONT MENTION YET!!! I do want to say the people at juicy video are very nice and very helpful which it is not their job to give me numbers but they did talk with me about it.

So after now not getting a penny and having to play phone tag with joe and dennis which dennis dodges my calls and has had one of his wives give me the run around for over a month, I have no choice but to get nasty!!!!!!!!! there will be a follow up letter about all of this coming soon but as for now the purpose of this letter is 2 things, one to let everyone know who you are dealing with when you deal with them, and second a warning to dennis and joe that if i dont get my money by the end of the week its going to cost them alot more.

remember there are alot of things i know about those guys doing things that can put them in alot of trouble!!!!!!!!!!! go check out the los angeles vice unit that deals with people shooting without permits also agencies that deal with people shooting porn around people your not supose to shoot around. dennis knows what that means and my next post might reveal that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and a bunch of other things i wont mention "yet" I know everyone is reading this and probably thinking thats f---ed up if i start causing them trouble like that but guess what i dont give a F#$%.

i want my f$%^&*( money now and im not going to play the phone tag game anymore. i told Joe in my last email that i hate chasing money and this was going to get nasty!!!!!!!!! I dont want commision anymore i have played tag too much i want to be bought out on rights for the movie!!! and im not talking about 50 or 100 bucks he has made plenty off the movie on the net and his website allready, he told me!!!!!! The only reason I have not pushed this to a civil law suit yet, is because an agreement was typed up by me, that is on my laptop, and Dennis has read and agreed to it, but never signed it because stupidly at that time I did not think anyone woulb be stupid enough to try to f*** me over...throwing rocks at a glass house if you know what i mean.

hopefully they will read this and we can resolve this without going any further. but if not, everyone will now know why I would be more than willing to cause someone so much headache which could turn into costing them a lot of money. ps. everyone reading this please tell me your thoughts and opinions on how I should deal with such losers that have f***** over and ripped off so many people in this business, and what an acceptable amount would be. My email is [email protected]

...hey guys wanted to give everyone a update of the scum bags at ama/pink kitty. since i put up the last post i have got sevaral emails from people that have got f---ed by them and i dont understand why people dont stand up and do something????? here is one email from a guy that wanted to remain unheard

hey Donny, My name is ******, I am the owner of ***, I have had some run-ins with Joe....he tried to extort thousands from me..he is all talk and nothing else.... if you have any questions...please let me know...but I have a restraining order against him and I might be able to help you out... arnold ps..he owes me tons of movies... Thank you, and here is another Hey

avsb bDonny, Its ********, if you remember me i was once a director for Joe and Dennis too and they owe me over 2grand and released movies i shot without my name on them or me getting the profits we agreed on. You know all about what happened to Dick too.... So, welcome to the club man.... go get 'em. -***

Donny is not fucking around and will take anyone down that stands in the way! as you can see people are already steping forward to join the suit
in my experience the longer the text, the more mendacity. I've seen this trend several times with board personalities. -bmb
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:30 PM   #19
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so? the size of my dick is a public knowledge
;)
I have pics





































































































somewhere

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Old 01-07-2008, 06:04 PM   #20
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This thread makes me sleepy.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:00 PM   #21
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seriously... GFY is NOT a domcracy, I dont see why some people say that the admins have to conform to how you think... there is no elections, no board meetings, no annual nothing... You dont donate, you sure as fuck dont buy advertising... thats all gfy is... advertising space... that all any of the internet is...

so since you dont contribute anything positive... especially money for advertising... then you simply dont matter... Just as I dont matter.... but i play nice... I do my work... i dont talk shit unless confronted... i sure as shit dont act like im 12 and portray multiple personalities...

get a life... your dick looks nasty... (im assuming it was yours, if not, get new talent... looked like someone poured their cream of wheat on that dick) <---- ok I do talk a little shit




seriously, the admins conform to noone.... if you paid for it or were actually a professional then you would have some say...



YOU SIMPLY DONT

you dont contribute...
you dont have any say...


thanks, drive through...

GFY dosnt care about you... nor do they care about what other boards say or think...

they all know each other ....

vegas will be funny for sure...


This mother fucker said bad things about Brad Mitchell... get a grip dude... THAT shit is funny...
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:04 PM   #22
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:43 PM   #23
CarlosTheGaucho
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you should print out that email and use it to wipe your ass better.
LOL - is a real purpose of viewing a Donny Long thread to check the new innovative ways how can Donny yet get slammed ?
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Old 05-11-2008, 08:12 PM   #24
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wtf?? I never sent that email..I just did a search and came upon this thread..WTF!!!!! I have worked for joe a few times and I did shoot a few things for him..joe is an interesting character but theres no bad blood between us and we arent on bad terms as far as I know so this is total BULLSHIT..just another attempt from Donny loudmouth long...this is as true as when he suppossedly "beat my ass" lmfao.....whatever....I have NO TIME for DRAMA but thought i'd clear my goodname here..peace.....
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Old 05-11-2008, 08:16 PM   #25
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This thread promises to deliver... but doesn't.
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Old 05-11-2008, 09:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by CarolCox View Post
I really have no idea who Donny Long is (and I've been in the Industry for 14 years), but by all these recent posts, I know he is someone I just would never do business with. We realized long ago to keep business problems private and never air them in public. Whenever I see someone post nonsense about others, I just feel that could be me and my company if I ever did anything with them and something went wrong.

I am sure that all this recent garbage will keep the more businesslike companies away from him and his company.

Carol xoxoxo
feel the same way... thing go sideways every now and then, then they gotta be addressed quickly and in privet. -bmb
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Old 05-12-2008, 12:21 AM   #27
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Whoever you have 'beef' with Donny, that's the best recommendation they can get for business as far as anyone here is concerned, so I wouldn't bother if I were you.

JustdaveXXX, can't you shut this motherfucker up??? lol
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Old 05-12-2008, 03:48 AM   #28
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wtf?? I never sent that email..I just did a search and came upon this thread..WTF!!!!! I have worked for joe a few times and I did shoot a few things for him..joe is an interesting character but theres no bad blood between us and we arent on bad terms as far as I know so this is total BULLSHIT..just another attempt from Donny loudmouth long...this is as true as when he suppossedly "beat my ass" lmfao.....whatever....I have NO TIME for DRAMA but thought i'd clear my goodname here..peace.....
If true, not sure why anyone would trust a guy who forges e-mails from other people in the industry. Would make you wonder what other documents/e-mails could be forged as well in his business.
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:01 AM   #29
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LOL, does Donny do anything beside causing drama? I never read ANYTHING good about him...
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:25 AM   #30
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Donny and the crew... for fucks sake, lay off the drama pipe for once.
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:31 AM   #31
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:29 AM   #32
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bump for DL ha ha
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:37 AM   #33
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Hey Cleo the pr....

Don't you have cum filled sheets to wash or floors to scrub???
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:14 AM   #34
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Doctor Feelgood, the pills you gave me don't work anymore. Do you have anything stronger?
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:20 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleo the pr View Post
joe laughlin‏
From: dick tracy ([email protected])
Sent: Mon 1/07/08 10:31 PM
To: [email protected]

donny-dude whatever problems we may have had together,I dont even care anymore,I had to respond as I was reading about your fued with joe laughlin and man,I told you 2 years ago (after I directed 2 scenes which you starred in-but about 3 movies worth of footage- all together probably 15-17 scenes total),that that guy was a flake and he'd rip you off...he still owes me $2500 for talent and shooting fees which I have yet to get and then .dude that guy used to have dennis'3 year old twins in the fucking house when he'd be shooting so he's obviously a peice of shit too..but if you guys are seriously gonna file a lawsuit let me know..i'll be happy to be a part of it..i'd like to get paid after 2 years and having to deal with those fuckin dough bags as well..but i'd really like to see him get his due for ripping alot of people off in this business..I dont really need the money its more of a revenge thing to be totally honest...let me know...late. - C


more proof that this industry does in fact need to be regulated by the government.

"he "lost" the paperwork and changed names on the relases to make dennis the content shooter and witness."

oh jesus. the shit that goes on in porn valley.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:32 AM   #36
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more proof that this industry does in fact need to be regulated by the government.

"he "lost" the paperwork and changed names on the relases to make dennis the content shooter and witness."

oh jesus. the shit that goes on in porn valley.
Except it never happened.

I think what happens is Donny hits the meth, pounds out these posts during the initial rush, then has to go back and try to figure out what he was talking about once he's coasting.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:48 AM   #37
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Except it never happened.

I think what happens is Donny hits the meth, pounds out these posts during the initial rush, then has to go back and try to figure out what he was talking about once he's coasting.
thank god. fucking with the paperwork is a NO NO.

i am sure some fucking knuckleheads in the valley do it, or don't even have any paperwork. recently i've heard some horror stories.
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