Apartments - GoFuckYourself.com

eru · 09-30-2002, 03:45 AM

On average, when you get an apartment (something around $1000/month), how much money should you put as a down payment? What's the norm?

I.E., 2 months payment, 3 months, 6 months?

ADL Colin · 09-30-2002, 03:55 AM

I know someone that works for an apartment complex here in Florida. Such things vary widely depending on region and current occupation rates. If an apartment complex has a lot of vacancies they will often lower the required security deposit to attract more renters.

One month is as close to a standard as you will find. There can be regional differences as well.

eru · 09-30-2002, 04:06 AM

Oh that's nice to hear. I was worried some places would want several months in advance.

The reason being is that I want to get this apartment in December but I am also getting my car that month. If they demanded like 3-4 months of rent up-front, then I'd really be tight on cash.

Do they check your credit history when you get an apartment? Mine barely exists...

ADL Colin · 09-30-2002, 04:13 AM

No credit is good. Bad credit is bad.

Different leasing companies have different rules but even with REALLY bad credit, you will probably only have to pay 2 month's rent as a security deposit.

eru · 09-30-2002, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Colin
No credit is good. Bad credit is bad.

Different leasing companies have different rules but even with REALLY bad credit, you will probably only have to pay 2 month's rent as a security deposit.

I hope this is not like trying to get an auto loan all over again. I fell into the category of "makes a lot of money but is self-employed and does not have tax returns yet" thus no loan ... bastards.

smoke · 09-30-2002, 06:01 AM

It depends on if the apt is a complex or privately owned by a person. If its a complex no more than $300 if its owned by someone they may require 1 months rent.

McAttack · 09-30-2002, 07:22 AM

Go to Mike's Apt, you don't have to pay 2 months ahead, but you will have to work for it.

Normally it's 2 months. First and Last month's rent.

pooterpatty · 09-30-2002, 09:07 AM

it really does depend on where you're looking to move into. As far as standards go, around here it's first month's rent, plus a deposit, which is based on your credit. My income wasn't verifiable, so I had to pay more

DanielD · 09-30-2002, 09:16 AM

2 months deposit is a norm. Rent differs as per the location, quality and facility of the apartment.

ADL Colin · 09-30-2002, 09:27 AM

'I hope this is not like trying to get an auto loan all over again. I fell into the category of "makes a lot of money but is self-employed and does not have tax returns yet" thus no loan ... bastards.'

Bring them your statement of bank deposits.

Oldy · 09-30-2002, 10:08 AM

I paid 6 months depost for a beautiful apartment.

eru · 09-30-2002, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Colin
'I hope this is not like trying to get an auto loan all over again. I fell into the category of "makes a lot of money but is self-employed and does not have tax returns yet" thus no loan ... bastards.'

Bring them your statement of bank deposits.

Of course I'll do that.. but I did the same thing for the auto loan to no avail.

eru · 09-30-2002, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pooterpatty
it really does depend on where you're looking to move into. As far as standards go, around here it's first month's rent, plus a deposit, which is based on your credit. My income wasn't verifiable, so I had to pay more

How *much* more? One months rent + ?

salsbury · 09-30-2002, 10:42 AM

heh, i put down $300. it varies wildly, though. some want first + last. some states that's not legal, so they just bundle the last into the deposit.

L0stMind · 09-30-2002, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by eru

I hope this is not like trying to get an auto loan all over again. I fell into the category of "makes a lot of money but is self-employed and does not have tax returns yet" thus no loan ... bastards.

I hate this "we hate self employed customers" policy that banks have.

My company has an account with one bank here. There is a substantial amount of cash in it. I was looking for a mortgage on a condo I liked downtown. I have been self employed for 2 years, have excellent credit and make some decent cash.

The bank wanted 5 years tax returns from me, 3 years of tax returns for my company and a co signer. WTF? I was planning to put like 35% down too. Shitty thing is - no 3 years tax returns for my company since it has only been around 2 years... and no one to co-sign for me.

No mortgage. So stupid.

BobChezule · 09-30-2002, 11:11 AM

I paid the security deposit, which they set at a flat rate of $1500, plus one month's rent up front. I also paid an extra $1000 security deposit when I got a dog. Rip off.

kosmic · 09-30-2002, 11:15 AM

First and last months rent are the usual standard requirements. I am a landlord, so I don't think that there is anything set in stone as to how much any complex charges.

kosmic · 09-30-2002, 11:17 AM

the reason being is that most people won't pay their last months rent, just to ensure they get back their full deposit. And it is usually not worth the landlord going to court over, unless the tenant really destroyed the place.

Lev · 09-30-2002, 11:58 AM

usually it's the one month's payment

eru · 09-30-2002, 12:41 PM

Thanks for the info guys

eru · 09-30-2002, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by L0stMind

I hate this "we hate self employed customers" policy that banks have.

My company has an account with one bank here. There is a substantial amount of cash in it. I was looking for a mortgage on a condo I liked downtown. I have been self employed for 2 years, have excellent credit and make some decent cash.

The bank wanted 5 years tax returns from me, 3 years of tax returns for my company and a co signer. WTF? I was planning to put like 35% down too. Shitty thing is - no 3 years tax returns for my company since it has only been around 2 years... and no one to co-sign for me.

No mortgage. So stupid.

Banks.

Maybe when I become a multi millionare I will open up a loan agency only giving loands to self-employed people! It will be sort of like that old Stephan King movie with the guy who had to quit smoking. If the people don't pay up, my agency will start abucting family members and torturing them. Yes that's how it'll be.

Pornwolf · 09-30-2002, 12:46 PM

Hey Eru, do you live in a co-ed dorm? If so, since you are going to move away from all of those young and impressionable 18+ barely legal teens I wouldn't mind subletting your dorm room.

I know I'm a little old but I'm sure you have a few people on the 8 or 9 year plan on campus. Every campus does! I wouldn't mind being that guy for a month.

Let me know.

ADL Colin · 09-30-2002, 12:47 PM

Yeah .. they have a difficult time distinguishing drug dealers from us pleasant pornographers without the proper paperwork.

eru · 09-30-2002, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornwolf
Hey Eru, do you live in a co-ed dorm? If so, since you are going to move away from all of those young and impressionable 18+ barely legal teens I wouldn't mind subletting your dorm room.

I know I'm a little old but I'm sure you have a few people on the 8 or 9 year plan on campus. Every campus does! I wouldn't mind being that guy for a month.

Let me know.

Subletting is a big no no -- I think I could get expelled if I did it... sooooooooooo give me a Ring and we'll work something out :P

As for the girls: There are a few hotties, but most of the girls I talk with are from class rather than from the dorm.

I think we have someone on the 10 year plan I hear.

eru · 09-30-2002, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Colin
Yeah .. they have a difficult time distinguishing drug dealers from us pleasant pornographers without the proper paperwork.

I'm an internet marketer. Duhhhhhhhh.

Honeyslut · 09-30-2002, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BobChezule
I paid the security deposit, which they set at a flat rate of $1500, plus one month's rent up front. I also paid an extra $1000 security deposit when I got a dog. Rip off.

Put yourself in the landlord's shoes.. I was renting my 2nd house for 200 to 300 under the current rate. I only charged first and last month. When we gave the renter the notice and started fixing up the place for resell, we had around $ 3000 in damages .

TheFLY · 10-01-2002, 07:01 AM

From somebody that has rented a LOT of different places... It does depend on demand and the area... The standard is usually pay first + last month rent + security deposit (usually 50-150% of the rent) -- so look to spend about 350% of rent the first month and you will 99% of the time be set... The standard deposit is usually the same as one month of rent. As far as credit checks -- really depends on the landlord and your credit... I usually try to avoid big apartment complex monster machines that are more difficult to deal with... usually if I have an anal landlord I can show them stubs off my porno checks LOL... but I prefer to avoid that. Target the independent owners -- not big complexes -- you will get way better deals -- and the contracts are much shorter and you have a 1 on 1 relationship w/ the owner which usually works to your benefit. Some "more difficult" landlords will let you in if you can prove that you have a job/income... One place wouldn't let me in without a co-signer (college town always tries to get parents to co-sign) I told them I was too old for that bullshit and I'd pay double-security deposit and they were happy with that... A lot of times they will take your credit info but never run the check on you too -- so go in assuming your credit is perfect.

Apollo · 10-01-2002, 07:02 AM

Unless the apartment is really really worth it. I wouldn't suggest paying more than 2 months rent upfront (first and last month)

TheFLY · 10-01-2002, 07:10 AM

Just remember that they hate the credit check bullshit as much as you do -- so try to make it easy on them by producing key phrases like "pay stubs" and "money is not an issue"

ibjem2 · 10-01-2002, 11:42 AM

My father runs a lot of real estate in Philly in regards to apartments, Here is how he lays it out.

1st months rent, Last months rent and a security deposit that is the same as the montly rental amount.

Also, take theFLYs adivce, individual landlords are MUCH easier to work with than big ass complexes.

Also, bonus points if you are willing to help out with like mowing the lawn and taking a general pride in the place. Late Charges for paying rent a few days late can be overlooked if you are helping us with the property in other ways.

All about partnerships in renting and when Tennants take care of the area, the rent stays the same from year to year, Be a pain in the ass, Your encouraged to move, LOL...........

eru · 10-01-2002, 12:39 PM

My budget is going to be between $1000 - $1500 for the apartment. I want somethign nice and high up.

I don't know whether or not it's going to be wise walking in and saying "MONEY IS NO OBJECT!". I will bring all my bank wire and check stub receipts though when the time calls for it.

cool1g · 10-01-2002, 12:49 PM

L0stMind,

there is a very easy option for you that i'm suprised you haven't heard about. You can get what's known as a 'no-doc' loan which doesn't check anything except for your credit rating, as long as you put down 20%. You interest rate runs about 1% higher than the typical 30 year fixed....so right now, you'd be looking at a 7% interest rate. which is still lower than what most of us have seen if our lifetimes. If you are interested, I can point you in the right direction.

as to apartment deposits, here in LA, move in costs are typically first month rent plus a one month security deposit....

Backov · 10-01-2002, 12:50 PM

I'm lucky in that I have a girlfriend who was in sales and talent booking (music) for many years.. So she is a people person..

Whenever we want a new place to live, she sweet talks the hell out of the landlords and we end up being first on the list. Nice. Highly recommended.

That said, first and last months rent is pretty standard everywhere I've lived in Canada.. You think that's bad, see what it takes to get an apartment in Korea. ;>

Cheers,
Backov

Backov · 10-01-2002, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cool1g
L0stMind,

there is a very easy option for you that i'm suprised you haven't heard about. You can get what's known as a 'no-doc' loan which doesn't check anything except for your credit rating, as long as you put down 20%. You interest rate runs about 1% higher than the typical 30 year fixed....so right now, you'd be looking at a 7% interest rate. which is still lower than what most of us have seen if our lifetimes. If you are interested, I can point you in the right direction.

as to apartment deposits, here in LA, move in costs are typically first month rent plus a one month security deposit....

Point me in the right direction as well, I am pretty much in the same boat as Eru..

Cheers,
Backov

Morgan · 10-01-2002, 12:59 PM

Any tenants renting from my building pay first and last plus one month security dep.

cool1g · 10-01-2002, 01:12 PM

Backov and L0stMind, I just talked to a friend and he said if you put 20% down, he could do a 30-year fixed for 6.375% if the loan is conforming (under $300K). You'd just have to be self-employed for at least 2 years and show some minor documentation to that effect. And have a 700+ credit score.

A true no-doc loan would have a higher interest rate. If you guys are in California, Colorado or Florida, a good friend of mine can help you if you want. If you are elsewhere, any good mortgage broker can help - and i might know someone else here that could work with you guys.

check out this article for more info, or search for 'no doc mortage' or google.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles...asics/8968.asp

Backov · 10-01-2002, 01:25 PM

Thanks, that's very helpful.. Learn something new every day. ;>

Cheers,
Backov

09-30-2002, 03:45 AM	#1
eru Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Hawai'i Posts: 2,612	Apartments On average, when you get an apartment (something around $1000/month), how much money should you put as a down payment? What's the norm? I.E., 2 months payment, 3 months, 6 months? __________________ <font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana">This thread will self-destruct in 5 seconds.</font><font color="#FFFFFF" face="Verdana"><br> <br> <font size="1">In the meantime, consider hosting with <a href="http://www.choopa.com"><font color="#00FF00">Choopa</font></a> -- The only provider with 9 x 1000mbps Transit Redundancy</font></font>

09-30-2002, 03:55 AM	#2
ADL Colin Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Tube Titans, USA Posts: 11,929	I know someone that works for an apartment complex here in Florida. Such things vary widely depending on region and current occupation rates. If an apartment complex has a lot of vacancies they will often lower the required security deposit to attract more renters. One month is as close to a standard as you will find. There can be regional differences as well. __________________ Adult Date Link - $50 PPS starting NOW! -- good and JUICY! skype = "adultdatelink"

09-30-2002, 04:06 AM	#3
eru Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Hawai'i Posts: 2,612	Oh that's nice to hear. I was worried some places would want several months in advance. The reason being is that I want to get this apartment in December but I am also getting my car that month. If they demanded like 3-4 months of rent up-front, then I'd really be tight on cash. Do they check your credit history when you get an apartment? Mine barely exists... __________________ <font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana">This thread will self-destruct in 5 seconds.</font><font color="#FFFFFF" face="Verdana"><br> <br> <font size="1">In the meantime, consider hosting with <a href="http://www.choopa.com"><font color="#00FF00">Choopa</font></a> -- The only provider with 9 x 1000mbps Transit Redundancy</font></font>

09-30-2002, 04:13 AM	#4
ADL Colin Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Tube Titans, USA Posts: 11,929	No credit is good. Bad credit is bad. Different leasing companies have different rules but even with REALLY bad credit, you will probably only have to pay 2 month's rent as a security deposit. __________________ Adult Date Link - $50 PPS starting NOW! -- good and JUICY! skype = "adultdatelink"

09-30-2002, 07:22 AM	#7
McAttack Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 625	Go to Mike's Apt, you don't have to pay 2 months ahead, but you will have to work for it. Normally it's 2 months. First and Last month's rent. __________________ You know Teen Kelly converts like crazy.

09-30-2002, 06:01 AM	#6
smoke Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 449	It depends on if the apt is a complex or privately owned by a person. If its a complex no more than $300 if its owned by someone they may require 1 months rent.

09-30-2002, 09:07 AM	#8
pooterpatty Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my chair Posts: 51	it really does depend on where you're looking to move into. As far as standards go, around here it's first month's rent, plus a deposit, which is based on your credit. My income wasn't verifiable, so I had to pay more

09-30-2002, 09:16 AM	#9
DanielD Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 92	2 months deposit is a norm. Rent differs as per the location, quality and facility of the apartment.

09-30-2002, 09:27 AM	#10
ADL Colin Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Tube Titans, USA Posts: 11,929	'I hope this is not like trying to get an auto loan all over again. I fell into the category of "makes a lot of money but is self-employed and does not have tax returns yet" thus no loan ... bastards.' Bring them your statement of bank deposits. __________________ Adult Date Link - $50 PPS starting NOW! -- good and JUICY! skype = "adultdatelink"

09-30-2002, 10:08 AM	#11
Oldy Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 348	I paid 6 months depost for a beautiful apartment.

09-30-2002, 10:42 AM	#14
salsbury Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,070	heh, i put down $300. it varies wildly, though. some want first + last. some states that's not legal, so they just bundle the last into the deposit. __________________

09-30-2002, 11:11 AM	#16
BobChezule Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New York Posts: 779	I paid the security deposit, which they set at a flat rate of $1500, plus one month's rent up front. I also paid an extra $1000 security deposit when I got a dog. Rip off.

09-30-2002, 11:15 AM	#17
kosmic Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Philly Posts: 871	First and last months rent are the usual standard requirements. I am a landlord, so I don't think that there is anything set in stone as to how much any complex charges. __________________ Ya-Mean Productions

09-30-2002, 11:17 AM	#18
kosmic Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Philly Posts: 871	the reason being is that most people won't pay their last months rent, just to ensure they get back their full deposit. And it is usually not worth the landlord going to court over, unless the tenant really destroyed the place. __________________ Ya-Mean Productions

09-30-2002, 11:58 AM	#19
Lev Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 3,545	usually it's the one month's payment

09-30-2002, 12:41 PM	#20
eru Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Hawai'i Posts: 2,612	Thanks for the info guys __________________ <font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana">This thread will self-destruct in 5 seconds.</font><font color="#FFFFFF" face="Verdana"><br> <br> <font size="1">In the meantime, consider hosting with <a href="http://www.choopa.com"><font color="#00FF00">Choopa</font></a> -- The only provider with 9 x 1000mbps Transit Redundancy</font></font>

09-30-2002, 12:46 PM	#22
Pornwolf Drunk and Unruly Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hollywood Posts: 22,712	Hey Eru, do you live in a co-ed dorm? If so, since you are going to move away from all of those young and impressionable 18+ barely legal teens I wouldn't mind subletting your dorm room. I know I'm a little old but I'm sure you have a few people on the 8 or 9 year plan on campus. Every campus does! I wouldn't mind being that guy for a month. Let me know. __________________ I've trusted my sites to them for over a decade... Webair, bitches.

09-30-2002, 12:47 PM	#23
ADL Colin Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Tube Titans, USA Posts: 11,929	Yeah .. they have a difficult time distinguishing drug dealers from us pleasant pornographers without the proper paperwork. __________________ Adult Date Link - $50 PPS starting NOW! -- good and JUICY! skype = "adultdatelink"

10-01-2002, 07:01 AM	#27
TheFLY So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: http://www.thefly.net/ --- Quit your job and live off steady traffic. Posts: 11,856	From somebody that has rented a LOT of different places... It does depend on demand and the area... The standard is usually pay first + last month rent + security deposit (usually 50-150% of the rent) -- so look to spend about 350% of rent the first month and you will 99% of the time be set... The standard deposit is usually the same as one month of rent. As far as credit checks -- really depends on the landlord and your credit... I usually try to avoid big apartment complex monster machines that are more difficult to deal with... usually if I have an anal landlord I can show them stubs off my porno checks LOL... but I prefer to avoid that. Target the independent owners -- not big complexes -- you will get way better deals -- and the contracts are much shorter and you have a 1 on 1 relationship w/ the owner which usually works to your benefit. Some "more difficult" landlords will let you in if you can prove that you have a job/income... One place wouldn't let me in without a co-signer (college town always tries to get parents to co-sign) I told them I was too old for that bullshit and I'd pay double-security deposit and they were happy with that... A lot of times they will take your credit info but never run the check on you too -- so go in assuming your credit is perfect.

10-01-2002, 07:02 AM	#28
Apollo Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 433	Unless the apartment is really really worth it. I wouldn't suggest paying more than 2 months rent upfront (first and last month) __________________ ----------- Free automated way to rotate sponsor gallery thumbnails on your sites TgpWizards - Free TGP Gallery submission system

10-01-2002, 07:10 AM	#29
TheFLY So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: http://www.thefly.net/ --- Quit your job and live off steady traffic. Posts: 11,856	Just remember that they hate the credit check bullshit as much as you do -- so try to make it easy on them by producing key phrases like "pay stubs" and "money is not an issue"

10-01-2002, 11:42 AM	#30
ibjem2 So Fucking Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC, capital of the world Posts: 178	My father runs a lot of real estate in Philly in regards to apartments, Here is how he lays it out. 1st months rent, Last months rent and a security deposit that is the same as the montly rental amount. Also, take theFLYs adivce, individual landlords are MUCH easier to work with than big ass complexes. Also, bonus points if you are willing to help out with like mowing the lawn and taking a general pride in the place. Late Charges for paying rent a few days late can be overlooked if you are helping us with the property in other ways. All about partnerships in renting and when Tennants take care of the area, the rent stays the same from year to year, Be a pain in the ass, Your encouraged to move, LOL...........

10-01-2002, 12:39 PM	#31
eru Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Hawai'i Posts: 2,612	My budget is going to be between $1000 - $1500 for the apartment. I want somethign nice and high up. I don't know whether or not it's going to be wise walking in and saying "MONEY IS NO OBJECT!". I will bring all my bank wire and check stub receipts though when the time calls for it. __________________ <font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Verdana">This thread will self-destruct in 5 seconds.</font><font color="#FFFFFF" face="Verdana"><br> <br> <font size="1">In the meantime, consider hosting with <a href="http://www.choopa.com"><font color="#00FF00">Choopa</font></a> -- The only provider with 9 x 1000mbps Transit Redundancy</font></font>

10-01-2002, 12:49 PM	#32
cool1g Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Hollyweird adjacent Posts: 977	L0stMind, there is a very easy option for you that i'm suprised you haven't heard about. You can get what's known as a 'no-doc' loan which doesn't check anything except for your credit rating, as long as you put down 20%. You interest rate runs about 1% higher than the typical 30 year fixed....so right now, you'd be looking at a 7% interest rate. which is still lower than what most of us have seen if our lifetimes. If you are interested, I can point you in the right direction. as to apartment deposits, here in LA, move in costs are typically first month rent plus a one month security deposit....

10-01-2002, 12:50 PM	#33
Backov Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Cat Detector Van Posts: 1,600	I'm lucky in that I have a girlfriend who was in sales and talent booking (music) for many years.. So she is a people person.. Whenever we want a new place to live, she sweet talks the hell out of the landlords and we end up being first on the list. Nice. Highly recommended. That said, first and last months rent is pretty standard everywhere I've lived in Canada.. You think that's bad, see what it takes to get an apartment in Korea. ;> Cheers, Backov __________________ <embed src="http://banners.spotbrokers.com/button.swf" FlashVars="clickURL=http://banners.spotbrokers.com" quality=high pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="120" height="60"></embed>

10-01-2002, 12:59 PM	#35
Morgan Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Location: Corona Del Mar, CA Posts: 10,520	Any tenants renting from my building pay first and last plus one month security dep. __________________ PornstarPlatinum.com \| TransErotica.com

10-01-2002, 01:12 PM	#36
cool1g Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Hollyweird adjacent Posts: 977	Backov and L0stMind, I just talked to a friend and he said if you put 20% down, he could do a 30-year fixed for 6.375% if the loan is conforming (under $300K). You'd just have to be self-employed for at least 2 years and show some minor documentation to that effect. And have a 700+ credit score. A true no-doc loan would have a higher interest rate. If you guys are in California, Colorado or Florida, a good friend of mine can help you if you want. If you are elsewhere, any good mortgage broker can help - and i might know someone else here that could work with you guys. check out this article for more info, or search for 'no doc mortage' or google. http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles...asics/8968.asp

10-01-2002, 01:25 PM	#37
Backov Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Cat Detector Van Posts: 1,600	Thanks, that's very helpful.. Learn something new every day. ;> Cheers, Backov __________________ <embed src="http://banners.spotbrokers.com/button.swf" FlashVars="clickURL=http://banners.spotbrokers.com" quality=high pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="120" height="60"></embed>