So, how many more programs will have dump 3rd party and go MERCHANT before

[joy]

the 3rd partry billers wake up and either tell us wtf is happening or heck if they dont wannt tell, how about solving the problem?

If your gonna come in here and pretend you dont know wtf im talking about and try to plug your shitty ass program that has been having the exact same results as evreyone else..dont bother..k?

[V_RocKs]

10-9?

Programs would never go merchant account route because merchant accounts don't allow the high percentage of chargebacks that adult sites deal with.

[joy]

Originally Posted by V_RocKs

10-9?

Programs would never go merchant account route because merchant accounts don't allow the high percentage of chargebacks that adult sites deal with.

errrr what?

The majority of bigger programs are going the route. In fact a 1000+ daily join program has just begun beta testing their own merchant account. So Epoch and CCbill just lost another huge client.

"no problems on our end"

[spacedog]

Originally Posted by joy

errrr what?

The majority of bigger programs are going the route. In fact a 1000+ daily join program has just begun beta testing their own merchant account. So Epoch and CCbill just lost another huge client.

"no problems on our end"

I would hardly call a small handful a majority.

Personally, IMO, own merchant account sends a red flag up in the trust factor if that company is also using cutom/inhouse stats/backend as well

[joy]

Originally Posted by spacedog

I would hardly call a small handful a majority.

In the past year there were 4 HUGE programs(that I know of) that have went the merchant way. We are talking about program with 500-1500 joins per day here. Id say thats a tad more than a handful.

But you know what? Forget it, there are no problems..what was I thinking LOL. Let keep on blaming tube sites and spyware.

[BluMedia]

We have had our own merchant account for years now, best move we ever made. We still use 3rd party billers in our cascade so it is the best combination imo.

Mark

[Ray@TastyDollars]

Originally Posted by BluMedia

We have had our own merchant account for years now, best move we ever made. We still use 3rd party billers in our cascade so it is the best combination imo.

Mark

That does look like the best route these days.

Ray

[spacedog]

Originally Posted by joy

In the past year there were 4 HUGE programs(that I know of) that have went the merchant way. We are talking about program with 500-1500 joins per day here. Id say thats a tad more than a handful.

But you know what? Forget it, there are no problems..what was I thinking LOL. Let keep on blaming tube sites and spyware.

How does 4 = a tad more than a handful when a handfull = 5.
How does 4 = a tad more than a handful when there's many more HUGE programs. 4 is probably less than 5% of programs that can be considered HUGE

[spacedog]

Originally Posted by Ray@TastyDollars

That does look like the best route these days.

Ray

Sure it is a good plan to have merchant account, as long as stats & tracking are with NATS or some trusted backend & not some unknown custom tracking.

Too much room for error/trust factor with an unknown backend, know what I mean.

[TMM_John]

What is it from the 3rd party biller that you want to be told?

[BradM]

Originally Posted by PBucksJohn

What is it from the 3rd party biller that you want to be told?

"Love thy neighbor"

... I think

[Varius]

Originally Posted by V_RocKs

10-9?

Programs would never go merchant account route because merchant accounts don't allow the high percentage of chargebacks that adult sites deal with.

Unless I am missing something, the chargeback levels are set by Visa and Mastercard not the processor. Also, just FYI, EU-based processing allows for a higher CB acceptance level than US-based does

[ElConquistador]

Merchant accounts can be a huge headache as well, at least that's what programs who don't use them tell me

Basically it's because they have to do all the accounting in-house, extra costs, bookkeeping, etc.

[Shoplifter]

Originally Posted by joy

But you know what? Forget it, there are no problems..what was I thinking LOL. Let keep on blaming tube sites and spyware.

I have said this a hundred times myself. The biggest issue right now is processing, not Zango etc.

[artman]

Originally Posted by V_RocKs

Programs would never go merchant account route because merchant accounts don't allow the high percentage of chargebacks that adult sites deal with.

you are retarded

[JohnnyJames]

I honestly don't understand why ANYONE would use a third party biller, but I am new to the adult side of the biz, so maybe someone can enlighten me.

Why not have total control over the billing? How many companies have simply folded and left people's mortgages unpaid? What a headache.

I have an established mainstream media company and we already have accountants and office staff, so maybe that's the difference.

It seems like a major program with the kinds of signups above (500-1500 or more daily) wouldn't dare trust a third party except in a cascade chain.

Agree with spacedog on the stats issue. It seems you would HAVE to use a third party stat provider or run the risk of constantly being accused of shady dealing.

[Varius]

Originally Posted by JohnnyJames

I honestly don't understand why ANYONE would use a third party biller, but I am new to the adult side of the biz, so maybe someone can enlighten me.

Why not have total control over the billing? How many companies have simply folded and left people's mortgages unpaid? What a headache.

I have an established mainstream media company and we already have accountants and office staff, so maybe that's the difference.

It seems like a major program with the kinds of signups above (500-1500 or more daily) wouldn't dare trust a third party except in a cascade chain.

Agree with spacedog on the stats issue. It seems you would HAVE to use a third party stat provider or run the risk of constantly being accused of shady dealing.

Well first if you use a merchant account, you better have two accounts to start with because one could drop at any time. A large one in the Philippines fairly recently dropped all adult so people who were only using them were pretty much screwed until they could get another account to send their rebills through.

Fraud is another aspect, as you really have to monitor it carefully yourself. If you go with 3rd-party they usually alert you on anything their system flags (I know CCBill does for a fact). These days, unless you are on very very large volume, adult merchant accounts can even cost as much or more as 3rd-party billing when you include many charge per transaction fees/decline fees.

Thus I find merchant accounts are not as advantageous as in the past. The best thing to do is mix it up though and have 2+ merchant accounts (one main, one backup), 2+ 3rd-party established billers (main and backups) and
share the volume between them (giving weight to approval rates, fees, etc...)

[12clicks]

Originally Posted by JohnnyJames

Agree with spacedog on the stats issue. It seems you would HAVE to use a third party stat provider or run the risk of constantly being accused of shady dealing.

I disagree. Anyone with any business sense will use whoever increases their bottom line. *thinking* 3rd party stats makes you safe from shady dealings is silly.

[JohnnyJames]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

I disagree. Anyone with any business sense will use whoever increases their bottom line. *thinking* 3rd party stats makes you safe from shady dealings is silly.

I understand your point, maybe I didn't explain myself.

What I should have said was:

If stats are a custom program (all done in-house), wouldn't the occasional disgruntled affiliate be better able to make a case for sponsor fraud? A third party stat provider would be presumed as neutral, and therefore add a layer of confidence?

Or am I wrong?

Good input to have, since we are building our first site in the next couple months.

Appreciate your thoughts.

[Sausage]

Merchant account all the way. CCbill, Epoch and the rest just can't match having your own merchant account. Only possible downside is higher charges for chargebacks, but most of them are from affiliate fraud anyway and we keep an eye on it at all times so catch them early.

The "3rd party processor trust" thing is retarded. You would have to be an idiot to think that route will make you safe.

Also on the program side of things ask past clients of globill, websitebilling, probilling, and yes the one everyone thought would *never* die .. Ibill. If you think a 3rd party processor about to go bust will give you anything more than a day warning you have your head in the sand. Its a very risky business to be in.

[After Shock Media]

Lets not forget that id say and make up a stat of about 95% of the adult programs do not do enough volume to qualify for a merchant account.

[joy]

any more opinions on this?

[Axzar]

Adult sites that do have their own merchant account most likely use the authorize only method of processing cards combined with strict IN HOUSE Fraud controls.

If you are taking your processor's word that the transaction is valid, you will be in a world of shit in no time.

When analyzing authorized transactions before submitting them for approval, the biggest rule is go with your gut feeling.

[Axzar]

We can do your cc pre-approval background checking and approvals for you. Hit me up for a quote.

[NETbilling]

Originally Posted by spacedog

I would hardly call a small handful a majority.

Personally, IMO, own merchant account sends a red flag up in the trust factor if that company is also using cutom/inhouse stats/backend as well

Not true and BTW - the program you are promoting in your sig banner, run their merchant acocunt through NETbilling. Many, many programs have their own merchant account.

Mitch

[NETbilling]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

Lets not forget that id say and make up a stat of about 95% of the adult programs do not do enough volume to qualify for a merchant account.

We can place merchant now doing $35k per month.

Mitch

[NETbilling]

Originally Posted by BluMedia

We have had our own merchant account for years now, best move we ever made. We still use 3rd party billers in our cascade so it is the best combination imo.

Mark

Thank for your business all of these years Mark!



Mitch

[Snake Doctor]

Spacedog, you're still an idiot. I figured you would have learned something (or at least learned to keep your mouth shut) after all these years.

A sponsor can still shave you if they're using an IPSP to process transactions.

You're not allowed to have more chargebacks if you use an IPSP. That ended years ago.

I'll also add that my top money maker uses thier own merchant account for billing, and I've seen shitty numbers lately that correspond with what my friends who use IPSP's are seeing. So going merchant isn't some silver bullet, it just saves you a few points and gives you a little bit more control.

[venus]

I have been using a merchant account on my site for about 8 yrs, I have low chargebacks because I do not rip off the customer and I allow them to cancel and not hide the cancel link, or worse, not put a cancel link anywhere like I have seen some do.

Originally Posted by V_RocKs

10-9?

Programs would never go merchant account route because merchant accounts don't allow the high percentage of chargebacks that adult sites deal with.

[venus]

If your worried about fraud, then dont use programs who tells you things that make you ask yourself "how can they do that and make money"

there is a point, where some programs try to compete so hard that they offer more then they financially can. Remember, the program has to turn a profit or their is no use in running one. If its not turning a good profit... then they may have to do some shady stuff to make that profit.

Originally Posted by JohnnyJames

I understand your point, maybe I didn't explain myself.

What I should have said was:

If stats are a custom program (all done in-house), wouldn't the occasional disgruntled affiliate be better able to make a case for sponsor fraud? A third party stat provider would be presumed as neutral, and therefore add a layer of confidence?

Or am I wrong?

Good input to have, since we are building our first site in the next couple months.

Appreciate your thoughts.

[venus]

how do you know how many joins they get a day? The same way so much bad information is flowing around this thread?

So many people know so much... to bad so much of it is not accurate.

Originally Posted by joy

In the past year there were 4 HUGE programs(that I know of) that have went the merchant way. We are talking about program with 500-1500 joins per day here. Id say thats a tad more than a handful.

[venus]

who ever told you this must get headaches easily.

use someone like netbilling to handle the secure side and the fraud scrubbing, then all the accounting is done with quickbooks or quicken (business edition).

thats if you have enough sense to incorporate, have a business checking account with business checkcards/credit cards.

it takes me a few minutes to print everything out from quicken, put it in an envelope and mail it off to my accountant at tax time.

could not be any easier.
There is nothing hard or bad about haing a merchant account (if you do it smart and use someone like netbilling). I would never go back to third party processors.

Originally Posted by ElConquistador

Merchant accounts can be a huge headache as well, at least that's what programs who don't use them tell me

Basically it's because they have to do all the accounting in-house, extra costs, bookkeeping, etc.

[NETbilling]

Originally Posted by Snake Doctor

Spacedog, you're still an idiot. I figured you would have learned something (or at least learned to keep your mouth shut) after all these years.

A sponsor can still shave you if they're using an IPSP to process transactions.

You're not allowed to have more chargebacks if you use an IPSP. That ended years ago.

I'll also add that my top money maker uses thier own merchant account for billing, and I've seen shitty numbers lately that correspond with what my friends who use IPSP's are seeing. So going merchant isn't some silver bullet, it just saves you a few points and gives you a little bit more control.

Very good points...

I too am a huge Dolphin's Fan.

[NETbilling]

Originally Posted by venus

I have been using a merchant account on my site for about 8 yrs, I have low chargebacks because I do not rip off the customer and I allow them to cancel and not hide the cancel link, or worse, not put a cancel link anywhere like I have seen some do.

You run a very solid program, have great content, and service the customer. Thank you for the plug for us in your other post and for being a valued NETbilling merchant for so many years. We met many years ago in Miami. It would be nice to see you again at a show sometime.

Mitch

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

Lets not forget that id say and make up a stat of about 95% of the adult programs do not do enough volume to qualify for a merchant account.

Exactly.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by NetBilling

We can place merchant now doing $35k per month.

Mitch

cackle..

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by venus

If your worried about fraud, then dont use programs who tells you things that make you ask yourself "how can they do that and make money"

there is a point, where some programs try to compete so hard that they offer more then they financially can. Remember, the program has to turn a profit or their is no use in running one. If its not turning a good profit... then they may have to do some shady stuff to make that profit.

I've said it before...

1% of the whales make 99% of the sales for any program. So they shave the sheep to pay the whales.

[NETbilling]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

cackle..

Why is that funny?

Mitch

[Snake Doctor]

Originally Posted by NetBilling

You run a very solid program, have great content, and service the customer.

She services the customer??

Had I known that I would have joined her site years ago.
*looks for credit card*

[Snake Doctor]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

I've said it before...

1% of the whales make 99% of the sales for any program. So they shave the sheep to pay the whales.

62% of statistics are worthless, and 43% are made up on the spot.

59% of people know this.

[GrouchyAdmin]

Merchants are great, and merchants are awful.

The one positive thing about running a third party processor is you rarely have to kick them in the ass more than once to fix something that isn't working right.

Everything else is much, much better with your own merchant account.

[Naja-ram]

Originally Posted by joy

In the past year there were 4 HUGE programs(that I know of) that have went the merchant way. We are talking about program with 500-1500 joins per day here. Id say thats a tad more than a handful.

But you know what? Forget it, there are no problems..what was I thinking LOL. Let keep on blaming tube sites and spyware.

what a fucking moron

[Dan]

ok facts please

1. having your own merchant account and using a service like NetBilling buts the risk in your hands. You control what level of fraud protection you want to use for the countries that you sell to. Not someone else who TELLS you what you can and cannot take.

2. Does not mater if you have a third party or your own merchant account. you are held to a threshold for Fraud.

3. My conversions are Much better with my netbilling service and my own merchant account then any of the third party billers.

4. My Profit is greater with my netbilling account and my own merchant account paying as little as 4% to 7% of all transaction. Not 10.5 to 13% that some third party will charge. So if you are billing the minimum 35k a month that is $420,000 a year x 5% $21k a year in profit. not to mention increased sales. for those that bill out 10 mil that is 200+k a year.


Like many of you I have seen many changes over the years when it comes to nilling. From the days when 10% chargebacks was ok to now when 1% in no good. We have seen countless third parties go under or lose their merchant account including one of the largest in the world. The one thing that is solid and I can trust is my ability to manage our risk and our fraud controls to determine how much or how little we want to risk.

The point is I control what is best for MY business not someone else.

If you have 35K or more in volume and do not have a merchant account drop a note to my good friend [email protected] and he will add at least 5% to your bottom line and that is no joke and sales pitch. it is a fact.

[Dan]

oh and I am not a dolphin fan

[NETbilling]

Originally Posted by CamZ_Dan

ok facts please

1. having your own merchant account and using a service like NetBilling buts the risk in your hands. You control what level of fraud protection you want to use for the countries that you sell to. Not someone else who TELLS you what you can and cannot take.

2. Does not mater if you have a third party or your own merchant account. you are held to a threshold for Fraud.

3. My conversions are Much better with my netbilling service and my own merchant account then any of the third party billers.

4. My Profit is greater with my netbilling account and my own merchant account paying as little as 4% to 7% of all transaction. Not 10.5 to 13% that some third party will charge. So if you are billing the minimum 35k a month that is $420,000 a year x 5% $21k a year in profit. not to mention increased sales. for those that bill out 10 mil that is 200+k a year.


Like many of you I have seen many changes over the years when it comes to nilling. From the days when 10% chargebacks was ok to now when 1% in no good. We have seen countless third parties go under or lose their merchant account including one of the largest in the world. The one thing that is solid and I can trust is my ability to manage our risk and our fraud controls to determine how much or how little we want to risk.

The point is I control what is best for MY business not someone else.

If you have 35K or more in volume and do not have a merchant account drop a note to my good friend [email protected] and he will add at least 5% to your bottom line and that is no joke and sales pitch. it is a fact.

Great facts and thanks very much for the very kind words. I will talk to you this afternoon.

[NETbilling]

Originally Posted by CamZ_Dan

oh and I am not a dolphin fan

Yes you are deep down inside

Mitch

[PaygeaGrl]

Without a doubt. Programs are signing up with Paygea direct every week both small, mid, and large accounts. I think merchants may think that manage everything in-house is too cumbersome. However, when you weigh the benefits they are pretty big. For example, we charge at least half of what third party processors charge. We have extensive fraud controls, multi-currency, rebill support, and more.

If you need to get incorporated in the EU, we take care of that in-house for you with our attorney. Once that is live, we do the rest until you are live.

If the merchant needs customer support, PW management,etc, we are hooked up with Netbilling..

It is the way to go for sure. Plus, EU has high chargeback thresholds.

[jrzeygirl]

Bump for Patricia at Paygea!

[PaygeaGrl]

Originally Posted by CamZ_Dan

oh and I am not a dolphin fan

I don't think many Floridians are anymore:-)

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by Varius

Well first if you use a merchant account, you better have two accounts to start with because one could drop at any time. A large one in the Philippines fairly recently dropped all adult so people who were only using them were pretty much screwed until they could get another account to send their rebills through.

It is vital to find strong banks that not only take adult merchants, but are also friendly to the adult industry. Additionally, it is a very good idea to have multiple merchant accounts in more than one region.

We have 7 strong, adult friendly banks in 3 processing regions. You can never have too many merchant accounts. It pays to diversify your risk from any single point of failure.