Culture War With B-2's: NY Times Article - GoFuckYourself.com

MrPopup · 09-22-2002, 03:32 PM

Since there are alot of opinionated people in here, I thought I'd send along one of the most well-written articles I've seen about the "pending" and unfortunate Iraq campaign.

Culture War With B-2's
By MAUREEN DOWD

WASHINGTON ? Don't feel bad if you have the uneasy feeling that you're being steamrolled. You are not alone.

As my girlfriend Dana said: "Bush is like the guy who reserves a hotel room and then asks you to the prom."

As the Pentagon moves troops, carriers, covert agents and B-2 bombers into the Persian Gulf, the president, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld continue their pantomime of consultation.

When Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota asked the defense chief on Thursday, "What is compelling us to now make a precipitous decision and take precipitous actions?" an exasperated Mr. Rumsfeld sputtered: "What's different? What's different is 3,000 people were killed."

The casus belli is casuistry belli: We can't cuff Saddam to 9/11, but we'll clip Saddam because of 9/11.

Mr. Rumsfeld offered sophistry instead of a smoking gun: "I suggest that any who insist on perfect evidence are back in the 20th century and still thinking in pre-9/11 terms."

Ah, Rummy. Evidence, civil liberties, debating before we go to war . . . it's all sooo 20th century.

Anyway, how can we have evidence when we learned last week that our evidence-gathering snoozy spooks are even more aggressively awful than we thought?

The administration isn't targeting Iraq because of 9/11. It's exploiting 9/11 to target Iraq. This new fight isn't logical ? it's cultural. It is the latest chapter in the culture wars, the conservative dream of restoring America's sense of Manifest Destiny.

The Bush hawks don't simply want to go back in a time machine and make Desert Storm end with a turkey shoot. They want to travel back even farther to the Vietnam War and write a more muscular coda to that as well.

Extirpating Saddam is about proving how tough we are to a world that thinks we got soft when that last helicopter left the roof of the American embassy in Saigon in 1975.

We can't prove it with al Qaeda. That's like grabbing smoke.

So former Nixon officials Cheney and Rummy are playing out their own "Four Feathers," rescuing the lost honor of the American empire in the sands of Arabia. They want to stomp on Saddam to exorcise the specters of Vietnam and Watergate ? the ethical relativism, the lack of patriotism, the postmodern angst, the loss of moral authority, the feeling that America is in decline or in the wrong, the do-whatever-feels-good Clintonesque ethos.

Dick Cheney fought multinationalism and Lynne Cheney fought multiculturalism, defending the dead white males who made the republic great. She has written a children's book, "America: A Patriotic Primer," and urged that 9/11 be a day to remember the nation's glories rather than its "faults and failings."

The Cheneys, who have been known to invite dinner guests at the vice presidential mansion to sing along to "Home on the Range," think they can restore a sunnier, more can-do mood to our society. Even if it takes incinerating Baghdad to do it.

Rummy is equally impatient with the post-Vietnam focus on imperfections and limitations. He wants to yank the boomers by their collars and make them, if not the Greatest Generation, at least a bit Greater.

This is fine with W., who stayed 50's through the 60's and stopped liking the Beatles when they got into their "weird psychedelic period." He arrived at Yale and Harvard Business School just as the white male WASP ascendancy was slipping. He was in that small coterie of bewildered guys in wide-wale corduroy trousers, Izod polo shirts and Sperry Topsiders, surrounded by wild and crazy hippies protesting the war and smoking roaches.

The Bushies want to bring back the imperial, imperious presidency. The pre-emption proclamation had the tone of Cheney Caesar and Condi Ben Her. And the resolution sent to Congress seeking authority to go after Iraq was the broadest request for executive military authority since L.B.J. got the Gulf of Tonkin resolution rubber-stamped in 1964. At least L.B.J. had to phony up the Tonkin Gulf provocation. Mr. Bush can't be bothered. "I cannot believe the gall and the arrogance of the White House," Sen. Robert Byrd bellowed.

Things are getting dangerouser and dangerouser. Karl Rove's gunning for the Democrats. Ariel Sharon's gunning for Arafat. W.'s gunning for Saddam. And Al Qaeda's still gunning for us.

Mr.Fiction · 09-22-2002, 03:35 PM

If it's not written by Anne Coulter, shown on Fox News, or spoken on the radio by Rush Limbaugh, I refuse to believe it.

Down with the "liberal media"!

Honeyslut · 09-22-2002, 04:01 PM

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html

Woo hooooooooo

Mr.Fiction · 09-22-2002, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Honeyslut
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html

Woo hooooooooo

One of the only unbiased voices in the entire U.S. media!

MrPopup · 09-22-2002, 04:09 PM

Ummm...

Nobody takes Rush Limbaugh seriously anymore. If they ever did. He plays a character...and unfortunately, much of America was unable to see the satire in his act and took him seriously. Once he started making coin he started to actually transform into the character - and never looked back.

Kinda reminds me how Good Ol' Mr. Wrestling II wore his mask around all the time. Even when he met Jimmy Carter. (Rush, not Mr Wrestling II)

Then he married some trailer ho who force fed him Phen-Phen.

Tell me...do you prefer "Fat-SwizzleChest Rush Limbaugh" or "Skinny-Golfing, 'I do whatever my golddiggin ho tells me too' Rush Limbaugh" ?!?

And is there a reason you need somebody like Rush Limbaugh to translate world events for you?

Mr.Fiction · 09-22-2002, 04:45 PM

Only a communist or a terrorist would think that Rush Limbaugh (the fair, balanced, and factual voice of truth and reason) is biased!

Which one are you - terrorist or communist?

12clicks · 09-22-2002, 07:00 PM

The problem with the "mrpopups" of the world is that they want a nuke to go off in the US so we have a smoking gun. And then, once we get saddam to admit to the UN that he was responsible for it, then, and only then, can we demand reparations from Iraq.

Luckily, this dopey thinking is usually based in canada and seldom represents the beliefs of the mainstreeam.

sextoyking · 09-22-2002, 07:05 PM

Bush, Cheney, etc

Are not center based at all, typical right wing republicans who need something to due, since the economy is taking a shit.

Mind you I have no problem going after ppl who attack our country, but listen up, this isn't just about terrorists, this is about control, big business, and loads of oil.

I am proud vet, and also a very proud democrat, who donates as much as I can to my party.

Hopefully we will keep the senate in Nov, and take over the house once again.

I like checks and balances, as did our four fathers.

peace

todd

12clicks · 09-22-2002, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sextoyking
Bush, Cheney, etc

Are not center based at all, typical right wing republicans who need something to due, since the economy is taking a shit.

and the current democratic leaders are typical left wing obstructionists whenever they aren't in control of the whitehouse.

Quote:

Originally posted by sextoyking
Mind you I have no problem going after ppl who attack our country, but listen up, this isn't just about terrorists, this is about control, big business, and loads of oil.

somehow, the democrats think its wrong for the US to try and control oil.
Think about what the US would do without oil before you start listening to democrats tell you how bad it is.

Quote:

Originally posted by sextoyking
I am proud vet, and also a very proud democrat, who donates as much as I can to my party.

Hopefully we will keep the senate in Nov, and take over the house once again.

I like checks and balances, as did our four fathers.

I'm more a guy who likes his polititions to NOT get their money from china.
Oh, and I like them to also know what a check or balance *is*

Quote:

Originally posted by sextoyking

peace

todd

war

you're bad todd

sextoyking · 09-22-2002, 07:23 PM

Hey 12clicks,

I can always write a 5 page post on why I think your points are wrong compared to mine

but just like in religion we have our own views.

I won't be a fool and say that the Clinton administration got it right on alot of non domestic issues, they did try though.

More so, not every democrat is far to the left my friend, and alot of those that are left, are also previos war hero's with medals.

i.e. Sen. Kerry, Previous Medal of Honor Winner Sen. Kerrey, Max Cleaveland, etc.

It isn't exactly just the dems asking tough questions on Iraq, take a look at 3-4 top Bush #1 officials. They don't exactly love the dems mind you.

I think Saddam is total worthless shit head, who should of been overthrown or shot by his own ppl years ago, do I really care if we go in there, not really. Just so it's as quick as can be, and the safety of our soldiers is #1.

theking · 09-22-2002, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrPopup
Since there are alot of opinionated people in here, I thought I'd send along one of the most well-written articles I've seen about the "pending" and unfortunate Iraq campaign.

Culture War With B-2's
By MAUREEN DOWD

WASHINGTON ? Don't feel bad if you have the uneasy feeling that you're being steamrolled. You are not alone.

As my girlfriend Dana said: "Bush is like the guy who reserves a hotel room and then asks you to the prom."

As the Pentagon moves troops, carriers, covert agents and B-2 bombers into the Persian Gulf, the president, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld continue their pantomime of consultation.

When Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota asked the defense chief on Thursday, "What is compelling us to now make a precipitous decision and take precipitous actions?" an exasperated Mr. Rumsfeld sputtered: "What's different? What's different is 3,000 people were killed."

The casus belli is casuistry belli: We can't cuff Saddam to 9/11, but we'll clip Saddam because of 9/11.

Mr. Rumsfeld offered sophistry instead of a smoking gun: "I suggest that any who insist on perfect evidence are back in the 20th century and still thinking in pre-9/11 terms."

Ah, Rummy. Evidence, civil liberties, debating before we go to war . . . it's all sooo 20th century.

Anyway, how can we have evidence when we learned last week that our evidence-gathering snoozy spooks are even more aggressively awful than we thought?

The administration isn't targeting Iraq because of 9/11. It's exploiting 9/11 to target Iraq. This new fight isn't logical ? it's cultural. It is the latest chapter in the culture wars, the conservative dream of restoring America's sense of Manifest Destiny.

The Bush hawks don't simply want to go back in a time machine and make Desert Storm end with a turkey shoot. They want to travel back even farther to the Vietnam War and write a more muscular coda to that as well.

Extirpating Saddam is about proving how tough we are to a world that thinks we got soft when that last helicopter left the roof of the American embassy in Saigon in 1975.

We can't prove it with al Qaeda. That's like grabbing smoke.

So former Nixon officials Cheney and Rummy are playing out their own "Four Feathers," rescuing the lost honor of the American empire in the sands of Arabia. They want to stomp on Saddam to exorcise the specters of Vietnam and Watergate ? the ethical relativism, the lack of patriotism, the postmodern angst, the loss of moral authority, the feeling that America is in decline or in the wrong, the do-whatever-feels-good Clintonesque ethos.

Dick Cheney fought multinationalism and Lynne Cheney fought multiculturalism, defending the dead white males who made the republic great. She has written a children's book, "America: A Patriotic Primer," and urged that 9/11 be a day to remember the nation's glories rather than its "faults and failings."

The Cheneys, who have been known to invite dinner guests at the vice presidential mansion to sing along to "Home on the Range," think they can restore a sunnier, more can-do mood to our society. Even if it takes incinerating Baghdad to do it.

Rummy is equally impatient with the post-Vietnam focus on imperfections and limitations. He wants to yank the boomers by their collars and make them, if not the Greatest Generation, at least a bit Greater.

This is fine with W., who stayed 50's through the 60's and stopped liking the Beatles when they got into their "weird psychedelic period." He arrived at Yale and Harvard Business School just as the white male WASP ascendancy was slipping. He was in that small coterie of bewildered guys in wide-wale corduroy trousers, Izod polo shirts and Sperry Topsiders, surrounded by wild and crazy hippies protesting the war and smoking roaches.

The Bushies want to bring back the imperial, imperious presidency. The pre-emption proclamation had the tone of Cheney Caesar and Condi Ben Her. And the resolution sent to Congress seeking authority to go after Iraq was the broadest request for executive military authority since L.B.J. got the Gulf of Tonkin resolution rubber-stamped in 1964. At least L.B.J. had to phony up the Tonkin Gulf provocation. Mr. Bush can't be bothered. "I cannot believe the gall and the arrogance of the White House," Sen. Robert Byrd bellowed.

Things are getting dangerouser and dangerouser. Karl Rove's gunning for the Democrats. Ariel Sharon's gunning for Arafat. W.'s gunning for Saddam. And Al Qaeda's still gunning for us.

Interesting article, but to much bull shit to be an important article.

PornoDoggy · 09-22-2002, 08:40 PM

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right ...

So ... one side says its all about Bush and big business and oil, and has nothing to do with terrorism. The other side says America can do whatever it wants, and anyone who disagrees is probably Canadian, European, or some other form of pussy.

What do I want to believe? The conspiracy theory or the junior high school locker room theory of international relations.

The United States has the right and the obligation to track down and eliminate every sorry sack of shit who was responsible for 9/11, including any and all nations that aided and abetted them in it. No one in the international community has denied that, and only those who think - whether they admit it or not - that the action was somehow justified would argue against it.

That Iraq represents a danger to world stability I do not doubt. That the son has to go straighten out the father's mistake I do not doubt, although I am DAMNED uncomforatable with the way he is going about it. This "Bush Doctrine" is fucked up beyond belief, although I am sure many countries will be quick to adopt it. Russia wants to go after Chechnia and George - terrorist states. India wants to go after Pakistan - a terrorist state. China can undoubtedly find a "terrorist" act committed by someone from Tiawan. And the Bosnians, Serbians, Macedonians, Albanians, Slovakians ... they all may find it a useful policy too.

I think we ought to take out Iraq. Now, I realize that's going to leave me open to criticism as meaning I am not a liberal. Fuck em. I am DAMNED fucking uncomfortable with the Bush Administration's games right now ... the words 'Gulf of Tonkin Resolution" keep rining in my head. I also realize that's going to get me called a pussy by people who DON'T realize that Rush is fiction. Fuck them too.

Strange times, indeed.

09-22-2002, 04:01 PM	#3
Honeyslut Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Ass Valley, Ca Posts: 6,436	http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html Woo hooooooooo __________________ http://nakedlunchnews.comWhat's up ? Naked Lunch News !

09-22-2002, 04:09 PM	#5
MrPopup Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: on the internet Posts: 3,783	Ummm... Nobody takes Rush Limbaugh seriously anymore. If they ever did. He plays a character...and unfortunately, much of America was unable to see the satire in his act and took him seriously. Once he started making coin he started to actually transform into the character - and never looked back. Kinda reminds me how Good Ol' Mr. Wrestling II wore his mask around all the time. Even when he met Jimmy Carter. (Rush, not Mr Wrestling II) Then he married some trailer ho who force fed him Phen-Phen. Tell me...do you prefer "Fat-SwizzleChest Rush Limbaugh" or "Skinny-Golfing, 'I do whatever my golddiggin ho tells me too' Rush Limbaugh" ?!? And is there a reason you need somebody like Rush Limbaugh to translate world events for you? __________________ <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" border="1" bgcolor="#008000"><tr><td><font size=3>Gone</font></td></tr></table> Last edited by MrPopup; 09-22-2002 at 04:10 PM..

09-22-2002, 07:00 PM	#7
12clicks Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: God's right hand Posts: 19,789	The problem with the "mrpopups" of the world is that they want a nuke to go off in the US so we have a smoking gun. And then, once we get saddam to admit to the UN that he was responsible for it, then, and only then, can we demand reparations from Iraq. Luckily, this dopey thinking is usually based in canada and seldom represents the beliefs of the mainstreeam. __________________ I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

09-22-2002, 07:05 PM	#8
sextoyking Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portland, OR. Posts: 6,034	Bush, Cheney, etc Are not center based at all, typical right wing republicans who need something to due, since the economy is taking a shit. Mind you I have no problem going after ppl who attack our country, but listen up, this isn't just about terrorists, this is about control, big business, and loads of oil. I am proud vet, and also a very proud democrat, who donates as much as I can to my party. Hopefully we will keep the senate in Nov, and take over the house once again. I like checks and balances, as did our four fathers. peace todd __________________ ICQ: 52344098 -------------------------------------- 50% Commissions on all Product Sales. http://www.wishing.com/money

09-22-2002, 07:23 PM	#10
sextoyking Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portland, OR. Posts: 6,034	Hey 12clicks, I can always write a 5 page post on why I think your points are wrong compared to mine but just like in religion we have our own views. I won't be a fool and say that the Clinton administration got it right on alot of non domestic issues, they did try though. More so, not every democrat is far to the left my friend, and alot of those that are left, are also previos war hero's with medals. i.e. Sen. Kerry, Previous Medal of Honor Winner Sen. Kerrey, Max Cleaveland, etc. It isn't exactly just the dems asking tough questions on Iraq, take a look at 3-4 top Bush #1 officials. They don't exactly love the dems mind you. I think Saddam is total worthless shit head, who should of been overthrown or shot by his own ppl years ago, do I really care if we go in there, not really. Just so it's as quick as can be, and the safety of our soldiers is #1. __________________ ICQ: 52344098 -------------------------------------- 50% Commissions on all Product Sales. http://www.wishing.com/money

09-22-2002, 03:32 PM	#1
MrPopup Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: on the internet Posts: 3,783	Culture War With B-2's: NY Times Article Since there are alot of opinionated people in here, I thought I'd send along one of the most well-written articles I've seen about the "pending" and unfortunate Iraq campaign. Culture War With B-2's By MAUREEN DOWD WASHINGTON ? Don't feel bad if you have the uneasy feeling that you're being steamrolled. You are not alone. As my girlfriend Dana said: "Bush is like the guy who reserves a hotel room and then asks you to the prom." As the Pentagon moves troops, carriers, covert agents and B-2 bombers into the Persian Gulf, the president, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld continue their pantomime of consultation. When Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota asked the defense chief on Thursday, "What is compelling us to now make a precipitous decision and take precipitous actions?" an exasperated Mr. Rumsfeld sputtered: "What's different? What's different is 3,000 people were killed." The casus belli is casuistry belli: We can't cuff Saddam to 9/11, but we'll clip Saddam because of 9/11. Mr. Rumsfeld offered sophistry instead of a smoking gun: "I suggest that any who insist on perfect evidence are back in the 20th century and still thinking in pre-9/11 terms." Ah, Rummy. Evidence, civil liberties, debating before we go to war . . . it's all sooo 20th century. Anyway, how can we have evidence when we learned last week that our evidence-gathering snoozy spooks are even more aggressively awful than we thought? The administration isn't targeting Iraq because of 9/11. It's exploiting 9/11 to target Iraq. This new fight isn't logical ? it's cultural. It is the latest chapter in the culture wars, the conservative dream of restoring America's sense of Manifest Destiny. The Bush hawks don't simply want to go back in a time machine and make Desert Storm end with a turkey shoot. They want to travel back even farther to the Vietnam War and write a more muscular coda to that as well. Extirpating Saddam is about proving how tough we are to a world that thinks we got soft when that last helicopter left the roof of the American embassy in Saigon in 1975. We can't prove it with al Qaeda. That's like grabbing smoke. So former Nixon officials Cheney and Rummy are playing out their own "Four Feathers," rescuing the lost honor of the American empire in the sands of Arabia. They want to stomp on Saddam to exorcise the specters of Vietnam and Watergate ? the ethical relativism, the lack of patriotism, the postmodern angst, the loss of moral authority, the feeling that America is in decline or in the wrong, the do-whatever-feels-good Clintonesque ethos. Dick Cheney fought multinationalism and Lynne Cheney fought multiculturalism, defending the dead white males who made the republic great. She has written a children's book, "America: A Patriotic Primer," and urged that 9/11 be a day to remember the nation's glories rather than its "faults and failings." The Cheneys, who have been known to invite dinner guests at the vice presidential mansion to sing along to "Home on the Range," think they can restore a sunnier, more can-do mood to our society. Even if it takes incinerating Baghdad to do it. Rummy is equally impatient with the post-Vietnam focus on imperfections and limitations. He wants to yank the boomers by their collars and make them, if not the Greatest Generation, at least a bit Greater. This is fine with W., who stayed 50's through the 60's and stopped liking the Beatles when they got into their "weird psychedelic period." He arrived at Yale and Harvard Business School just as the white male WASP ascendancy was slipping. He was in that small coterie of bewildered guys in wide-wale corduroy trousers, Izod polo shirts and Sperry Topsiders, surrounded by wild and crazy hippies protesting the war and smoking roaches. The Bushies want to bring back the imperial, imperious presidency. The pre-emption proclamation had the tone of Cheney Caesar and Condi Ben Her. And the resolution sent to Congress seeking authority to go after Iraq was the broadest request for executive military authority since L.B.J. got the Gulf of Tonkin resolution rubber-stamped in 1964. At least L.B.J. had to phony up the Tonkin Gulf provocation. Mr. Bush can't be bothered. "I cannot believe the gall and the arrogance of the White House," Sen. Robert Byrd bellowed. Things are getting dangerouser and dangerouser. Karl Rove's gunning for the Democrats. Ariel Sharon's gunning for Arafat. W.'s gunning for Saddam. And Al Qaeda's still gunning for us. __________________ <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" border="1" bgcolor="#008000"><tr><td><font size=3>Gone</font></td></tr></table>

09-22-2002, 03:35 PM	#2
Mr.Fiction Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Free Speech Land Posts: 9,484	If it's not written by Anne Coulter, shown on Fox News, or spoken on the radio by Rush Limbaugh, I refuse to believe it. Down with the "liberal media"!

09-22-2002, 04:45 PM	#6
Mr.Fiction Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Free Speech Land Posts: 9,484	Only a communist or a terrorist would think that Rush Limbaugh (the fair, balanced, and factual voice of truth and reason) is biased! Which one are you - terrorist or communist?

09-22-2002, 08:40 PM	#12
PornoDoggy Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,053	Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right ... So ... one side says its all about Bush and big business and oil, and has nothing to do with terrorism. The other side says America can do whatever it wants, and anyone who disagrees is probably Canadian, European, or some other form of pussy. What do I want to believe? The conspiracy theory or the junior high school locker room theory of international relations. The United States has the right and the obligation to track down and eliminate every sorry sack of shit who was responsible for 9/11, including any and all nations that aided and abetted them in it. No one in the international community has denied that, and only those who think - whether they admit it or not - that the action was somehow justified would argue against it. That Iraq represents a danger to world stability I do not doubt. That the son has to go straighten out the father's mistake I do not doubt, although I am DAMNED uncomforatable with the way he is going about it. This "Bush Doctrine" is fucked up beyond belief, although I am sure many countries will be quick to adopt it. Russia wants to go after Chechnia and George - terrorist states. India wants to go after Pakistan - a terrorist state. China can undoubtedly find a "terrorist" act committed by someone from Tiawan. And the Bosnians, Serbians, Macedonians, Albanians, Slovakians ... they all may find it a useful policy too. I think we ought to take out Iraq. Now, I realize that's going to leave me open to criticism as meaning I am not a liberal. Fuck em. I am DAMNED fucking uncomfortable with the Bush Administration's games right now ... the words 'Gulf of Tonkin Resolution" keep rining in my head. I also realize that's going to get me called a pussy by people who DON'T realize that Rush is fiction. Fuck them too. Strange times, indeed.