How much real damage are Tube and Torrent sites doing? - GoFuckYourself.com - Adult Webmaster Forum

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Paul Markham

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#1

How much real damage are Tube and Torrent sites doing?

09-06-2007, 04:20 AM

To the Internet porn industry as a whole?

Some of the sites stealing are 100% free, but many are not and are selling something. If only via an advert. It just occurred to me that many of these sites are billing via major processors who bill for the mainstream traditional porn sites.

The traditional approach of many is the sites "stealing" content, like Redtube and Megarotic are going to be the death of porn on the net, well paid porn and porn paysites. You need only look at threads to get the picture.

So I was thinking of this from a different angle.

Many of the sites "stealing content" are free, but most have advertising or a cheap membership. They have costs that have to be met. So if you're a boss of a major processing company you have direct access and knowledge to the revenue on "Adult" on the Internet. Would you be concerned if you saw that revenue drop and would you want to stop it?

Have we got it wrong and the money being spent is just moving from one business model to another and everyone is screaming because they are with the wrong business model?

As I said only thinking about it from a different angle.

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marketsmart

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#2

09-06-2007, 04:33 AM

i think it's a lot more than people will admit here.... "everyone is doing GREAT and making TONS of cash".....
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#3

09-06-2007, 04:34 AM

Feel free to give me all! the content you produce, so I can start a torrent site and make money from ads while giving the content away for free.
im happy, the surfer is happy, and perhaps you too?
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#4

09-06-2007, 04:40 AM

evergreen ... oh what a shitty weather out there, its still raining and i dont have a roof on my house, can it make a damage to my house? any help? please someone stop the raining!

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Paul Markham

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#5

09-06-2007, 05:03 AM

Glad to see the sig whores jumping in.

Think about it for 2 minutes. Do you think the processors would be processing for sites that are reducing THEIR income? Remember they can look at a credit card holders history, they can see what's being spent on the Adult Internet.

1,000 guys an hour spending $30 = $30,000 an hour.
1,000 guys an hour not spending $30 = Nothing.
1,000 guys an hour spending $10 = $10,000 an hour.

Seems to me the processors would not be going anywhere near sites that are cutting their income.

lopez Enough legal content to start a legal torrent site will cost $1,000 to $2,000. Guess you don't have that kind of money.

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TeenCat

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#6

09-06-2007, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

Glad to see the sig whores jumping in.

only i have sig here, so whats up my friend? ;) i have solution how to protect your members area so you dont need to solve torrents anymore, if you are talking about your teens site ;) maybe see you at another prague meeting ... ?

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RawAlex

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#7

09-06-2007, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

Glad to see the sig whores jumping in.

Think about it for 2 minutes. Do you think the processors would be processing for sites that are reducing THEIR income? Remember they can look at a credit card holders history, they can see what's being spent on the Adult Internet.

1,000 guys an hour spending $30 = $30,000 an hour.
1,000 guys an hour not spending $30 = Nothing.
1,000 guys an hour spending $10 = $10,000 an hour.

Seems to me the processors would not be going anywhere near sites that are cutting their income.

lopez Enough legal content to start a legal torrent site will cost $1,000 to $2,000. Guess you don't have that kind of money.

Paul, I had a great response for you. It was well thought out and well intentioned. But then I realized it would be like pissing into the wind, all I would get back is my own.

If you are so excited about tube sites, why not get off your ass and open a couple and test out your theories, rather than just going on and on about them and $1 clips and upsells and how to make money. Why not just fucking trying it and figure it out yourself?

You seem to love the business model they put forward. Go for it.
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#8

09-06-2007, 05:21 AM

There is also things like GUBA which also contain large number of stolen videos.
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Paul Markham

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#9

09-06-2007, 05:34 AM

Originally posted by TeenCat

only i have sig here, so whats up my friend? ;) i have solution how to protect your members area so you dont need to solve torrents anymore, if you are talking about your teens site ;) maybe see you at another prague meeting ... ?

Look forward to talking to you about it.

Paul, I had a great response for you. It was well thought out and well intentioned. But then I realized it would be like pissing into the wind, all I would get back is my own.

If you are so excited about tube sites, why not get off your ass and open a couple and test out your theories, rather than just going on and on about them and $1 clips and upsells and how to make money. Why not just fucking trying it and figure it out yourself?

You seem to love the business model they put forward. Go for it.

So don't be shy tell us your theory. It just came to me that if the Tube sites were slashing the income of the porn industry overall, as you maintain, the processors would not go anywhere near them.

As for going for it, are you saying that Tube sites lose money?

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Ripshit

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#10

09-06-2007, 06:35 AM

Tube sites go up quick they get in and get out and get quick cash fast!

They usually use stolen content if charging for it or not its still stolen at his point ,and always there is a AFF banner on them.

CCBill is taking a back seat to this they could obviously check out a site before processing but many will claim that takes too much effort on their behalf so they just process any old site and wait for people to start bitching about stolen content etc.
Meanwhile a dollar is a dollar if its 1 or 10 its still a buck!

Sad to see all these people out their not realizing that,and even sadder to see those that do
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RawAlex

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#11

09-06-2007, 06:45 AM

Paul, if you are such a big fan of tube sites (as you have shown before) I suggest you open one up and figure it out.

Processors don't care if a site makes money or loses money, only that the membership area has "value" and doesn't violate Visa / Mastercard rules. They don't check you for solvency, just that the product you are selling is real and acceptable to them.

CCprocessors make money on every transaction, they don't care where it is from.
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Jim_Gunn

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#12

09-06-2007, 06:49 AM

It's of no consequence what is going on with the cc processors in the aggregate. As a content producer and copyright owner, if someone else is using your content and giving it away for free or charging memberships for it you are being screwed and have remedies under the law.
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RawAlex

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#13

09-06-2007, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Jim_Gunn

It's of no consequence what is going on with the cc processors in the aggregate. As a content producer and copyright owner, if someone else is using your content and giving it away for free or charging memberships for it you are being screwed and have remedies under the law.

Jim, this is what I don't get about Paul. He has produced content for many, many years, and yet he doesn't seem to give a shit about protecting his rights - even though I remember the terms of his usage contract for content as being rather restrictive.

Content producers should be up in arms. Shooters that do work for others should be scared, because if content is easily stolen, then the value to your clients goes down, and what they can pay you drops. I don't think that Paul is grasping the idea that if income drops significantly, there won't be as much money to pay those young Czech girls to get naked for him.
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candyflip

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#14

09-06-2007, 07:46 AM

I don't think you can figure that out. But here's some food for thought:

Hollywood movies are usually the top downloads on Torrent sites, while this summer has been Hollywood's BIGGEST summer ever.

Spend you some brain.
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RawAlex

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#15

09-06-2007, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

I don't think you can figure that out. But here's some food for thought:

Hollywood movies are usually the top downloads on Torrent sites, while this summer has been Hollywood's BIGGEST summer ever.

They are having a good year at the box office (about as good as 3 years ago) but DVD sales are dropping, which really is one of the key markets for the movie companies these days.

Think of it like the Jordan Capri Honeymoon Video - when it first comes out on the website, it sells memberships and retains others. Over time, it is a selling point. Then it comes out in DVD and makes more money. However, if the movie is already in wide distribution and everyone who would want a copy already has downloaded one, then the sales are lower than they would be.

Most mainstream Hollywood production companies are looking at significantly reduced budgets and lower release schedules for 2008 and beyond, and they only want to finance "home run" movies. Why do you think there are so many sequels and re-dos? Because they are trying to keep hitting home runs, not taking risks. One bad picture losing a bunch of money can wipe out all the profits for a year.
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»Rob Content«

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#16

09-06-2007, 09:00 AM

Paul before you try to involve processors in your theories you should understand how they work. It is not up to them to judge a site, or to research where the person who runs the site got the content from. What they need to do is verify that the person who owns the inc is a valid citizen in the processing country and then verify with visa/mc that the content meets their standards. It would open them up to a ton of lawsuits if they picked and choose who they process and turned people away with no valid proof that they are stealing the content.

It would cost ccbill tons of money to have people research all the content on all the sites that they process and verify if that content is 100% owned by the site owner that they are billing.

NOW, if they are processing a site and are given real valid proof that the site is using stolen content, and they have no right to use it for profit, and are given a proper DMCA notice they have to notify the site to pull the content or they will be shut down.

I've spoken to all the major billers at length about this, and the sad truth is most of these tube sites and etc that they do process they have taken on ZERO complaints from people. If know one goes to them saying they are using my content, they cannot do anything about it.

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#17

09-06-2007, 09:17 AM

porn profits are in decline for the first time EVER in the history of the internet.

nuff said

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#18

09-06-2007, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear

porn profits are in decline for the first time EVER in the history of the internet.

nuff said

I agree, the key is to do something different and keep reinventing
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RawAlex

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#19

09-06-2007, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by sweetcuties

I agree, the key is to do something different and keep reinventing

Yeah, here's an idea... let's come up with a business where we give away more porn for free than the tube and torrent sites! that's right, give away more for free, and make a ton of money.

Wait.
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sweetcuties

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#20

09-06-2007, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by RawAlex

Yeah, here's an idea... let's come up with a business where we give away more porn for free than the tube and torrent sites! that's right, give away more for free, and make a ton of money.

Wait.

Members will still pay just a smaller pie. The best thing is you've got all these forums that have full clips/pics and then when you email the webmaster, nothing happens. I've emailed a piece of shit twice to have my content removed, and nothing happened.

Nothing is converting like it was a yr or 2 ago and I challenge to say different.
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#21

09-06-2007, 10:25 AM

How much real damage are Tube and Torrent sites doing?

The real damage comes from the content being stolen and then given away. This takes funding from the content producer which results in less content being produced. It's a vicious cycle.

The Tube/Torrent sites themsleves are fine, as long as they are done properly. It's a great business model (kinda why Google bought YouTube).

I'm in the process of building a Tube style site but I plan on limiting the length of the movies posted (2-3 minutes tops), I'm NOT going to allow the general public to upload only program owners and/or producers and all movies will be linked to a relevant site with a referal code.

The TGP/MGP has evolved into the Tube site, end of story.

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RawAlex

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#22

09-06-2007, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by sweetcuties

Members will still pay just a smaller pie. The best thing is you've got all these forums that have full clips/pics and then when you email the webmaster, nothing happens. I've emailed a piece of shit twice to have my content removed, and nothing happened.

Nothing is converting like it was a yr or 2 ago and I challenge to say different.

Nothing is converting for a bunch of reasons, but #1 on the list is that everyone and their dog now knows how to get full site rips and full episodes by checking out torrent and tube sites. They don't have to go far, a typical pornstar name on google returns at least 1 torrent site in the top 20 sites, and often you can find them crowding up the top 10.

The general public has learned where to get more than enough free porn to get off, and they just don't need paysites anymore.

Luscious Media: 2 to 3 minutes is about 2 minutes too long. Seriously clips longer than 1 minute are death. In 3 minutes, half your guys can get off. It is a simple and sad fact. Even the "tougher" guys will need maybe 4 or 5 clips total and they will be done, as in "not taking out their credit card for porn". If you need to have multiple non-porn banners around the content to make money (including dating, poker, or misc pay per click ads) then you know that the idea DOESN'T SELL PORN.

Remember, most sponsor content can only be used with the sponsors promotions on the page with the content only. It is in their terms of use. If sponsors grew some balls about that, most tube sites would be dead in an hour because they couldn't afford the bandwidth they use because long clip tube sites don't sell porn. They give it away.
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#23

09-06-2007, 09:10 PM

I think GFY is overrun by surfers, and the more we discuss all this shit here, the more members we lose. We aren't accomplishing jack shit in these threads, except educating more surfers on how and where to get all our content for free.

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Paul Markham

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#24

09-06-2007, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by candyflip

I don't think you can figure that out. But here's some food for thought:

Hollywood movies are usually the top downloads on Torrent sites, while this summer has been Hollywood's BIGGEST summer ever.

And processing companies are the people in the best position to know the revenue.

porn profits are in decline for the first time EVER in the history of the internet.

Profits might be down, but is revenue down? Two different things.

It would cost ccbill tons of money to have people research all the content on all the sites that they process and verify if that content is 100% owned by the site owner that they are billing.

I hear what you're saying and agree with you it has to be done within the letter of the law. What I'm asking is would a CEO be asking questions of his managers why revenue and earnings are down for his business and would he be acting on it?

Or would he sit back and watch his revenue slide down and do nothing about it?

The real damage comes from the content being stolen and then given away. This takes funding from the content producer which results in less content being produced. It's a vicious cycle.

Except for the micro niches we could all stop producing content for 10 years and the PAYING customer would never know. The TGP site owner would spot it, but that's another cost we have taken on with the old business model.

The Tube/Torrent sites themsleves are fine, as long as they are done properly. It's a great business model (kinda why Google bought YouTube).

The TGP/MGP has evolved into the Tube site, end of story.

This is what I think. The business is changing and the ones doing the griping are the ones clinging to yesterdays model. I suspect the real truth is something else.

As I said at the beginning I was looking at the question of Tube and Torrent sites from a different angle. Some tell us they are bringing down the industry over all, yet I think if that were so the processors would be very reluctant to bill for them. It does not make sense that they would bill for a company taking down one of their main income earners.

Theft is wrong and anyone who thinks I agree with it is not reading what I'm saying, or is and wants to divert the thread to stop people thinking about what I'm saying.

Which is there might be more money in charging the customer a small price than in charging him a large one. Does a content producer make more money charging $100 for a scene or $10? Think about the concept of that statement before you reply.

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#25

09-07-2007, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

Does a content producer make more money charging $100 for a scene or $10? Think about the concept of that statement before you reply.

Well in thinking on this Id have to say at this point less is more.
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#26

09-07-2007, 03:45 AM

so could you post some links to these sites?
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#27

09-07-2007, 09:18 AM

so could you post some links to these sites?
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#28

09-07-2007, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by candyflip

I don't think you can figure that out. But here's some food for thought:

Hollywood movies are usually the top downloads on Torrent sites, while this summer has been Hollywood's BIGGEST summer ever.

It's a different thing to go to the cinema or to stay at home, it's like you like the beer on tap with friends in a bar then to hack at home with a bottled one.

The only thing is that even a bottled one at home will always cost you something, but if you want to get a movie at home it doesn't have to cost you anything.

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»Rob Content«

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#29

09-07-2007, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Paul Markham

As I said at the beginning I was looking at the question of Tube and Torrent sites from a different angle. Some tell us they are bringing down the industry over all, yet I think if that were so the processors would be very reluctant to bill for them. It does not make sense that they would bill for a company taking down one of their main income earners.

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