Fact: a vast majority of programmers in adult are entirely incompetent

**CurrentlySober** · 09-01-2007, 09:49 AM

Fact: I like poo

**Libertine** · 09-01-2007, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by ThatGuyInTheCorner

Fact: I like poo

Fact: that is somewhat nasty

**CurrentlySober** · 09-01-2007, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by Libertine

Fact: that is somewhat nasty

Yes... but only somewhat

**Fletch XXX** · 09-01-2007, 09:53 AM

whats the going rate for good coder?

**Libertine** · 09-01-2007, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Fletch XXX

whats the going rate for good coder?

No idea. When I still freelanced, I usually worked on a pay-per-project basis.

I'd imagine $30 an hour would be the minimum you'd pay for capable coders in western countries. Anything below that, and you'd probably end up with people who don't understand English and will thus present you with a great traffic management system - if you want them to build a cms.

**sortie** · 09-01-2007, 11:00 AM

Seems like you had some bad luck.
Every script I ever got from another programmer worked great.

**Tempest** · 09-01-2007, 11:08 AM

I occasionally do some contract programming if the project interests me... I've been doing some work for someone who was desperate and a friend of a friend so I gave him a lower $30/hour rate.. I would usually charge $50/hour for small projects.. More than 8 hours then I'd consider a flat rate if I was comfortable with the estimated time to completion. Even at that rate I consider it "cheap" when compared to what I used to get paid in the "real" world. But since I don't need the work I can be more picky.

**baycouples** · 09-01-2007, 11:09 AM

Not just in adult...

**Libertine** · 09-01-2007, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by sortie

Seems like you had some bad luck.
Every script I ever got from another programmer worked great.

I generally don't hire other programmers. I'm looking at what programmers say on GFY, and the scripts that get released these days.

Based on those two things, I'd say at least 50% of programmers in this industry are entirely self-taught - which is a bad thing, since it generally means they are unaware of very basic principles of security, compatibility, etc.

And yes, I know that there are some self-taught programmers that deliver great work. Most never get beyond learning the basics of one or two simple languages, though.

**Libertine** · 09-01-2007, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by baycouples

Not just in adult...

More in adult than in other industries. In other industries, people pay a lot more attention to education, references, work experience, etc.

**Jace** · 09-01-2007, 11:36 AM

yup, there are way more flakes and idiots in adult than any other industry

I have hired from 3 different industries and adult is by far the worst for idiots

shit, one of them still posts on gfy and added ME to his ignore list because HE flaked on me!! haha

said he would do the job, would get back to me in a day or so, disappeared, then proclaims on gfy that I am now on his ignore list

I just don't get it..I have money...I have insane ideas...but finding a programmer that can make shit happen is impossible around these parts

**pr0** · 09-01-2007, 11:46 AM

YOU HAvE NO FUCKING IDEA

it took me 2 years to find ONE decent programmer

the rest were flakes & bitchs....one of which is still going to die

**munki** · 09-01-2007, 11:58 AM

Shit it's gotten so bad, I only hire myself for coding jobs now, and I even flake on myself... How fucked up is it when Im trying to hunt myself down on ICQ and dodging phone calls from myself at the same time... I still can't decide whether to fire myself, or give myself a raise for dealing with myself...

**Libertine** · 09-01-2007, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Jace

I just don't get it..I have money...I have insane ideas...but finding a programmer that can make shit happen is impossible around these parts

Programming is hard work, and it takes a lot of time. It takes a very specific type of person to be able to do that kind of work for extended periods of time without getting annoyed, especially if people are just working one someone else's vision.

My uncle was the CEO of a big software company, and he always told me never to become a professional programmer, because they usually burn out before they hit 35.

**The Duck** · 09-01-2007, 12:11 PM

I concurr.

**Jace** · 09-01-2007, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Libertine

Programming is hard work, and it takes a lot of time. It takes a very specific type of person to be able to do that kind of work for extended periods of time without getting annoyed, especially if people are just working one someone else's vision.

My uncle was the CEO of a big software company, and he always told me never to become a professional programmer, because they usually burn out before they hit 35.

I know programming is hard work, but when you advertise yourself as a programmer maybe you should BE a programmer...LOL

let's see, in the past 2 months I have had 2 programmers take on my jobs and disappear:
Ryan Steele
Levi Lewis (http://www.calmdevelopment.com/about/)

**WarChild** · 09-01-2007, 12:15 PM

Tell me about it.

Before I went full time in Adult I used to be the Project Manager for a large foreestry company (think $1B/year). My team of up to 8 programmers was entirely responsible for the development, maintenance and impementation of the business system that managed all of the sales, inventory, production, etc.

Fortunately I was able to hire only math/comp eng graduates because we could pay between $80 and $100 an hour each. Even then, with the exception of one or two (one who is an adult wembaster now too!), they were a pain in the fucking ass to keep on track.

**KimJI** · 09-01-2007, 12:15 PM

Programmers are like men. All the good once are either taken or gay

**WarChild** · 09-01-2007, 12:17 PM

Let's not confuse what the adult industry calls programmers with real programmers. Self taught idiots banging out sloppy script work are not really programmers.

**StuartD** · 09-01-2007, 12:28 PM

Yeah really... programmers suck.

**Nookster** · 09-01-2007, 12:53 PM

Seriously. I've been in and out of adult for the past few years and I still haven't found more than three other coders better than me. The guys over at Too Much Media, by the way kudos, have been the only coder(s) that I've seen that surpass me in some way. Really sad too, I feel bad for all you guys relying on programmers for one reason or another.

**WarChild** · 09-01-2007, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by StuartD

Yeah really... programmers suck.

Just curious, are you a self taught programmer or do you have formal schooling? Do you work mostly with script languages (php) or could you sit down and bang something off in C# if you needed to?

**GrouchyAdmin** · 09-01-2007, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by WarChild

Let's not confuse what the adult industry calls programmers with real programmers. Self taught idiots banging out sloppy script work are not really programmers.

Quoted for the brutal truth. Unless someone's learned how to program, and has some direction, you'll end up with haphazard, ugly shit that's unmaintainable and likely suboptimal.

It's amazing how many people come to me to say they need an upgrade for me to turn around and say, "No, you need your software rewritten. There's no point to try to select an entire table of xGB into RAM."

JD · 09-01-2007, 01:26 PM

Circle gets the square!

**WarChild** · 09-01-2007, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by GrouchyAdmin

Quoted for the brutal truth. Unless someone's learned how to program, and has some direction, you'll end up with haphazard, ugly shit that's unmaintainable and likely suboptimal.

It's amazing how many people come to me to say they need an upgrade for me to turn around and say, "No, you need your software rewritten. There's no point to try to select an entire table of xGB into RAM."

When I took over the project at the forestry company I mentioned before, it was a distributed ap written in Visual Basic over a custom database layer called Pivotal Relationship that used exchange server to replicate via email messages to local MS SQL servers at each location. Yes, you read that correctly. This system was running 15 manufacturing locations, all sales, all inventory, all shipments etc.

**GrouchyAdmin** · 09-01-2007, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by WarChild

...it was a distributed ap written in Visual Basic over a custom database layer called Pivotal Relationship that used exchange server to replicate via email messages to local MS SQL servers at each location. Yes, you read that correctly.

Well, the one good thing about this is that forestry services are used to the "thrash and burn" methodology.

**sortie** · 09-01-2007, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by WarChild

Just curious, are you a self taught programmer or do you have formal schooling? Do you work mostly with script languages (php) or could you sit down and bang something off in C# if you needed to?

I know you didn't ask me that but Here's a comment.

I have a degree in computer science and math, so I'm not self taught.
But I promise you that a true hardcore self taught programmer who did his homework can write good code. No doubt about it.

But I agree with you that some people learn a couple of "tricks" in php and javascript and start calling themselves programmers and they are nothing more than incompetent.

**WarChild** · 09-01-2007, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by sortie

I know you didn't ask me that but Here's a comment.

I have a degree in computer science and math, so I'm not self taught.
But I promise you that a true hardcore self taught programmer who did his homework can write good code. No doubt about it.

But I agree with you that some people learn a couple of "tricks" in php and javascript and start calling themselves programmers and they are nothing more than incompetent.

Yes, there is for the odd guy that can be a great coder who is self taught, but it's not the normal. Especially when you get in to very advanced code, they most often don't have the math skills.

Hell, I'm a good programmer, but I don't have the math background to be a very technical head programmer. I do have the "sort out the bullshit" skills to be a good project manager.

The thing about the formal education is that it teaches you how to program as opposed to a specific language. A good programmer can pick up any language no problem because they already know how to "speak".

**GrouchyAdmin** · 09-01-2007, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by WarChild

The thing about the formal education is that it teaches you how to program as opposed to a specific language. A good programmer can pick up any language no problem because they already know how to "speak".

For higher level languages, yes.

However,

Code:

XOR &#37;reg, %reg
vs
MOV.B 0x00, %reg

to save a byte or a cycle doesn't do much these days.

**WarChild** · 09-01-2007, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by GrouchyAdmin

to save a byte or a cycle doesn't do much these days.

No doubt. I still look back fondly at learning Pascal and Prolog though. Those were good times

**calmlikeabomb** · 09-01-2007, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Jace

I know programming is hard work, but when you advertise yourself as a programmer maybe you should BE a programmer...LOL

let's see, in the past 2 months I have had 2 programmers take on my jobs and disappear:
Ryan Steele
Levi Lewis (http://www.calmdevelopment.com/about/)

I haven't taken on any projects of yours since you and Brian were working together that was probably late 05' early 06'. I didn't code single a fucking statement for you in the past 2 months.

How much did I quote you for the job? Oh wait, that's right - I never did quote you anything. You came to me about the work. I didn't contact you. I never even entered the project into quick books for my own records. I said I'd get back with you, but I never did. That should have been a clue to move the fuck on. I don't owe you an explanation for my actions.

I'm never even going to consider another project from an individual with 32,000+ posts on a forum ever again. You spend 32x more time here then I do. You keep fuckin' around with me like this and I'll give you some real problems to cry about.

**sortie** · 09-01-2007, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by GrouchyAdmin

For higher level languages, yes.

However,

Code:

XOR %reg, %reg
vs
MOV.B 0x00, %reg

to save a byte or a cycle doesn't do much these days.

I think he's referring to more useful concepts like knowing how to manipulate data without relying on a particular type of database and writing effecient code so your scripts deliver content to screen faster.

**GrouchyAdmin** · 09-01-2007, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by sortie

I think he's referring to more useful concepts like knowing how to manipulate data without relying on a particular type of database and writing effecient code so your scripts deliver content to screen faster.

Yes, of course, which has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge of optimization for the specific platform you are utilizing.

**WarChild** · 09-01-2007, 01:54 PM

Look all I know is it's not a good idea to get drunk and high and try to optimize indexes on a production database at 2AM Monday morning.

Well, so I've been told, anyway.

**RawAlex** · 09-01-2007, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by ThatGuyInTheCorner

Fact: I like poo

Juicy likes pie. I prefer coffee.

**GrouchyAdmin** · 09-01-2007, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by WarChild

Look all I know is it's not a good idea to get drunk and high and try to optimize indexes on a production database at 2AM Monday morning.

Well, so I've been told, anyway.

Let me guess: Drop primary index, recreate primary index with a numeric automatic increment?

I've seen that, before. The best part was that these ids were being utilized rather than a UUID or even name based key, so rebuilding the indeces to use the numerics (since the software was not to be rewritten) ended up being one hell of a task of data entry.

**sortie** · 09-01-2007, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by GrouchyAdmin

Yes, of course, which has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge of optimization for the specific platform you are utilizing.

I thought the goal of good internet programming was to make platform independent code. If a client moves his script to a new server and they don't work without you re-writing them will the client think that you are a shit programmer for optimizing all the script for a specific server and locking them forever onto that box?

"specific platform" is a curse word.

**WarChild** · 09-01-2007, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by GrouchyAdmin

Let me guess: Drop primary index, recreate primary index with a numeric automatic increment?

I've seen that, before. The best part was that these ids were being utilized rather than a UUID or even name based key, so rebuilding the indeces to use the numerics (since the software was not to be rewritten) ended up being one hell of a task of data entry.

Actually, that particular instance was because we had just finished building a custom reporting modual for sales that allowed them to search, sort and display their order file, which is actually a very complex set of data spanning most of the larger DB tables, in any manner they wanted to. So people would be running sales reports that would take an hour to generate almost. This is on an MS SQL server which of course doesn't create a "lock" when data is being read, but simply delays writes during the process without a formal lock.

What was required was by looking at a week's worth of SQL logs, figuring out and building up to 10 field indeces. In short, a fucking disaster. In the end I ended up getting another giant quad Xeon server and one way replicating data to it making it a dedicated reporting DB. Of course that brings up the problem of different indeces on different servers for the same DB, but that's another story.

**GrouchyAdmin** · 09-01-2007, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by sortie

I thought the goal of good internet programming was to make platform independent code.

"specific platform" is a curse word.

When someone's making a joke using pseudo-assembly code, and you state that software should be written to be independent, you're missing the entire point of the joke.

Originally posted by WarChild

What was required was by looking at a week's worth of SQL logs, figuring out and building up to 10 field indeces. In short, a fucking disaster. In the end I ended up getting another giant quad Xeon server and one way replicating data to it making it a dedicated reporting DB. Of course that brings up the problem of different indeces on different servers for the same DB, but that's another story.

Ugggh. Sounds like another story for LTF.

**GrouchyAdmin** · 09-01-2007, 02:09 PM

I mangled the new name of the site. Make that WORSE than failure.

**WarChild** · 09-01-2007, 02:14 PM

I think the highest pressure programming job I ever had was for an electronics manufacturer called Glenayre. One of my first jobs, worked my way up from the bottom.

In any case, I was responsible for designing, writing and maintaining custom software that translated CAD data to several different proprietary languages for surface mount production machines. Basically screen printers, pick-and-place and chip shooters made by 3 different manufacturers. It all had to work together properly, and the CAD data had to be exacty because the tolerance for placing some ICs is very, very low.

A fuck up at that job that stopped an 8 hour production shift (they ran 24 hours) could easily account for a loss of more than $1,000,000 revenue. I was 21 when I started that.

**calmlikeabomb** · 09-01-2007, 02:16 PM

Where's Jace? He never says anything back to my replies.

I guess he doesn't have the time to follow up on everything he posts

This is the 4th time I've had to step up and reply to him and haven't heard anything back. hrm....

**Jace** · 09-01-2007, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by calmlikeabomb

I haven't taken on any projects of yours since you and Brian were working together that was probably late 05' early 06'. I didn't code single a fucking statement for you in the past 2 months.

How much did I quote you for the job? Oh wait, that's right - I never did quote you anything. You came to me about the work. I didn't contact you. I never even entered the project into quick books for my own records. I said I'd get back with you, but I never did. That should have been a clue to move the fuck on. I don't owe you an explanation for my actions.

I'm never even going to consider another project from an individual with 32,000+ posts on a forum ever again. You spend 32x more time here then I do. You keep fuckin' around with me like this and I'll give you some real problems to cry about.

no thanks, I will continue to call you a flake every chance I get, I contacted you, sent you the specs, you said you had one job to finish up and you would get on it, you never contacted me back, I basically waited 5 days and I DID move on

I will tell you this though, we finally did find a reputable and reliable programmer, and now that the software is done we are making on average $600-1000 a day with it......so, waiting for you to flake cost us money, and this was AFTER we already got fucked by another programmer (which you also knew about)

so, answer me this, why is it after I recommended you SOOOOOO many fucking times did you just up and flake on me and not even contact me back?

nice one trying to insult the post count though, ask around bitch, I MAKE PEOPLE MONEY, plain and simple...so, go peddle your cms and make that chump change little kid, cause now I will stalk you any chance I get

bitch

**Jace** · 09-01-2007, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by calmlikeabomb

You keep fuckin' around with me like this and I'll give you some real problems to cry about.

tell ya what you little punk...DO IT

RIGHT NOW

give me some real problems

I am asking you for it

**GrouchyAdmin** · 09-01-2007, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by WarChild

I think the highest pressure programming job I ever had was for an electronics manufacturer called Glenayre. One of my first jobs, worked my way up from the bottom.

...

A fuck up at that job that stopped an 8 hour production shift (they ran 24 hours) could easily account for a loss of more than $1,000,000 revenue. I was 21 when I started that.

I love these stories.

18 years old, here. Fresh out of high school and taking classes when not working. Ever eaten a banana or a potato? Yeah, I worked on the software for the machines that would grade them by size, weight, any bad spots, etc.

I took it from an RS-232 card plugged into a C64 to an RS422 adaptor connected to an IBM PC system, so you didn't have to worry about shorting out your equipment on site - you could get nearly a mile distance with the RS422.

Of course, Windows 95 just came out and I was to use that, despite the fact that there were no native drivers for the one line card that had enough power to handle the task. No problem.. just use Soft-ICE and step through the code when sending/recv'ing transmissions and build one that way, right?

Oh, and the lead programmer had just died, leaving no documentation and only sparse uncommented 6502 assembly printouts.

A communications or programming issue had Dole crawling up my company's arse. Immediately.

**WarChild** · 09-01-2007, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by GrouchyAdmin

... No problem.. just use Soft-ICE ...

Soft-ICE ftw.

**Jace** · 09-01-2007, 02:24 PM

just for reference, this is calmlikeabomb "not contacting" me hahaha

Code:

Session Start (jacejacejacejace:CalmDev): Fri May 25 14:51:45 2007
[14:53] Jace: someone else bailed on us and we have to start from scratch
[14:53] Jace: can I send you the doc with the info?
[14:53] CalmDev: Ok, do you have any details of the job written up?
[14:53] CalmDev: yeah, [email protected]
[14:54] Jace: sent, everything is in that doc, let me know if you have ANY questions.....we need someone to start ASAP and can pay a deposit if needed
[14:54] CalmDev: Ok, I'll read over it. Give me a few minutes.
[14:54] Jace: the other dude spent 4 months jerking us around til he finally diappeared
[14:54] Jace: cool, i will be here for another hour or so
[14:54] CalmDev: god damn that's not cool
[14:54] Jace: not one bit
[14:54] Jace: LOL
[14:55] CalmDev: 4 months? what a waste of time.
[14:55] Jace: totally man, we needed this done 3 months ago, it is literally costing us at least $10k a month not having it done
[14:55] CalmDev: ouch, ok reading over the documents now.
[14:55] Jace: cool
[14:59] Jace: btw, just for reference, I have all the old programmers code....not sure what good it will do you though, I am pretty sure he was terrible and couldn't do it which is why he bailed
[14:59] Jace: LOL
[15:00] CalmDev: Yeah, that's usually the reason people bail. I don't understand why people take on jobs that they can't complete. I'm still reading..
[15:20] CalmDev: Do you have a url for the work the old programmer had completed?
[15:20] Jace: live on the web or just source files?
[15:22] CalmDev: Something live I just want to see what he was doing. If not you can send me the source files...even though I wont be using them
[15:22] Jace: (Link: http://www.xxxxxxx.com)http://www.xxxxxxx.com 
[15:22] Jace: u.  Closer001
 p.  octc
[15:22] Jace: i think that was in the doc
[15:22] CalmDev: Oh, ok I saw this already
[15:22] CalmDev: yeah it was
[15:22] Jace: let me zip up the source for you
[15:23] CalmDev: wow, so it took him 4 months to do that? lol, I just though that was the old system... then your guy flaked out on designing the new one. Didn't realize this was his work...
[15:24] Jace: yes, that is 4 months worth of work
[15:24] Jace: we have only used one guy so far, this is what he did, nothing
[15:24] Jace: from the looks of the code it looks like he had more stuff done, but nothing he showed us
[15:25] Jace: (Link: http://www.justjace.com/xxxx/xxx.zip)http://www.justjace.com/xxxx/xxxx.zip
[15:28] CalmDev: Well I can do the project it's not going to be a problem for me. However I am going to have some questions and will not be able to get started until tomorrow. I have to finish up something today and once I am done I'll do a write up with any questions I have. For now I'm gonna print out this document so I can mark it up and get my questions together. It's a big project and I'm not sure of the cost yet. Tomorrow I will also be able to give you an answer. Where you paying the other guy hourly or a flat cost?
[15:29] CalmDev: Were you* sorry
[15:29] Jace: we agreed on a flat cost with him, but we can pay hourly, I know that is how you like it
[15:29] Jace: any time frame that you think you can knock it out in?
[15:34] CalmDev: Ok, I just downloaded the zip. Just curious - what did you spend to have that little bit of code done? I hope it wasn't much. I'll have a more accurate time frame tomorrow as well. I don't want to estimate without being 100% of all the requirements and work involved, but to be safe it's gonna take me at least 10 - 14 days. I just got done doing a big CMS for fris' and it took me about 47 hours of recorded work. which worked out to a little over 1 week. He had every single detail ready for me
[15:35] Jace: haha, yeah, fris told me about it, haha
[15:35] Jace: the other guy refunded our money, but it was a little over $700 or so
[15:35] Jace: BTW, my partner (the brains of the real estate end of this) is on AIM...ANY questions you might have about how the software needs to work can be asked to him his AIM is "xxxxxxxxx"
[15:35] Jace: i gave him your AIM to add you to
[15:35] CalmDev: ha, cool. I just got done doing another one a few days ago as well for a different dude.
[15:35] CalmDev: Ok, I'll add him.
[15:35] Jace: he is computer stupid though, which is why I am handling this end of it
[15:35] Jace: LOL
[15:36] CalmDev: Yeah, ha well I'll email you my  questions so you can look over them, then from there you can forward them to him I guess...
[15:36] Jace: kickass
[15:37] CalmDev: My questions will be more detailed then that other programmers. I'll have quite a few I'm sure.
[15:37] Jace: ok, I am heading out to hang with the family, i will talk with you tomorrow
[15:37] CalmDev: Ok, sounds good. Thanks jace
[15:37] Jace: sure thing, look forward to working with you again :)
[15:37] CalmDev: : - )
Session Close (CalmDev): Fri May 25 15:38:23 2007

**calmlikeabomb** · 09-01-2007, 02:27 PM

Yeah you're exactly right. That's me not contacting you.

**dig420** · 09-01-2007, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Jace

tell ya what you little punk...DO IT

RIGHT NOW

give me some real problems

I am asking you for it

Never antagonize a programmer lol...

Fact: a vast majority of programmers in adult are entirely incompetent

Fact: a vast majority of programmers in adult are entirely incompetent

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