Probono

I know the the US system for medical too well. Want to here from the British, Canadians and others who have a government healthcare system. Does it work for you?

In the US we are told government healthcare is a failure everyplace is that true?

pigman

You dont have to worry in any Scandinavian country anyway.

tony286

My Dad had a heart while on business in the UK, got excellent care and it cost him nothing.

bobby666

no problems here in europe, system working fine

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BigCashCrew

Yeah, it cost him nothing... It cost the fucking taxpayers of England. It wasn't free. Someone had to pay for it. The taxpayers.

Porn Farmer

No.

Think about it for a second, if the English, Canadians and Australians had healthcare systems that sucked you would hear them complaining about it all the time. But they don't. They paise it. Even most conservatives in those countries appreciate the value of universal healthcare.

pimpware

But that's the idea, kindo of 1 for all and all for 1.

Most people in US don't understand that, maybe because they are so so so so afraid of the Socialism ghost

This is nothing about socialism, it's about taking minimum care of other people.

It's easy for a healthy guy say that the insurance system works great, but on the 1st real health problem you will change your opinion because it's all wounderland when you are puting money on the insurance company pocket but at first expensive treatment you are kicked from the system.

In general, US people believe too much on urban miths instead of thinking by they selfs.

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RAM

American Health Insurance is a rip off IMHO.

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Sebastian Sands

Sweden has been on top of the list for their health care system for years, I actually believe everyone has dental covered there no matter what.

The health care system here in the US sickens me, a friend of mine got in an accident a few years a go and the hospital where he went to sent him on his way because they didn't do business with his insurance company.. are you fucking kidding me?..

And then those commercials about health cards (we are not an insurance company) but we will give you anywhere between 10 - 60 % off on Dr bills etc etc.. bull fucking shit.

Pisses me off.

Sebastian

D

My Canadian Grandfather had some cardio issues before he passed.

When the docs figured out what was up, he has a pace-maker installed within the week, at no cost.

In retrospect, that's a hell of a lot faster than my HMO woulda done it.

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GreyWolf

Nothing is perfect anywhere, but can't complain about universal healthcare - it cuts out administrative crap and concentrates on patient care without concerns over money and no pre-existing condition rubbish. Universal healthcare has been the norm in all industrialized western countries for decades.

Understand how you will hear tales about how universal healthcare is a "failure" elsewhere - you can thank the people who profit from it in the US to make these claims - along with the 2000'ish lobby groups they finance to support this myth. Nothing could be further from the truth....

Cyrano

Unfortunately, I have somewhat of an intimate relationship with the Canadian healthcare system for various reasons. Despite the whining expressed by numerous Canadians, I can honestly say it's beyond satisfactory.

MoldyMan

I'm not a fan of this guy, and Sicko might just make me hate him more. It'll be interesting to see. Personally here in Australia it works mostly. In my opinion nothing is perfect and it's easy to beat up a dramatic story like Michael Moore has done before. His one sided social commentary has made him a bomb of money.. hope he is generous with charities..

pornask

Some complain that waiting times for some surgeries in Canada are long. The solution is simple - if you don't wish to wait, go to the US and pay their fee. Only US fees are so high, vast majority of people will wait till their time to get free surgery comes.

If you don't like it, there's always ither options, but people are like that - they will bitch just for the sake of bitching. Either way, most of canadian will only have good things to say about Canadian health care system.

GreyWolf

Not sure if it's the same in Canada, but in the EU you can elect to pay if you wish and have "private medical care". It's basically the same docs, operating theaters etc - just more of a hotel environment.

Doubt in reality there is much difference in "waiting times" over universal healthcare countries or the US - if a healthcare problem is not time-senstive - it will be scheduled as appropriate - otherwise treated as urgent.

pornask

Anyone can go to the US to get the operation done - provided they can pay for it. Based on Sicko - reattachment of a middle finger is $60 000 US dollars. More serious operation will go at about half million dollars. Some complicated shit like transplants or what not will be 6 or 7 figure number. For as long as you can afford to pay such high prices, you can certainly get it done in the US. Regardless of where you live - whether it be Canada, EU or any other place in the world.

The thing is, that we're talking about 1% of people who can afford this shit. However the option is there. US doctors are in it for the money. If you can afford it, it doesn't matter to them where you are from. So people from other parts of the world have an option to go to the US or visit a privately owned hospital in their country, where they will not have to wait, but will be charged a feww that's not low. People from the US don't have these options, they always have to pay (unless they go for a trip and pretend it happened to them while being there, so they can get free treatment from that country). They can get themselves insured, but after having seen Sicko, it's fairly interesting to know how insurance companies will find the way to make sure you are an exempt form the coverage, should there be the situation...

Mutt

there are 'private' hospitals in Canada but they're for very specific things - non life-threatening type things. you can't go to a private hospital for heart by-pass or cancer treatment/surgery. there is pressure for a private alternative tier of healthcare/hospitals.

all situations are different - depending on where you live, what illness you have - in some situations the Canadian system is superior and in some inferior. People's lives and health are in jeopardy due to long wait times for surgery and cancer treatment in many cities. For the average person, 'free' healthcare is wonderful - you're 25, you work at Kinkos, and get appendicitis, you're operated on and out in a few days not owing a thing - an American at that age usually doesn't have any insurance and he leaves the hospital with a debt of probably $40,000. Depressed? Anxious? The government pays for your shrink - a weekly visit to a private shrink is a luxury for the rich in the United States. In Canada it's a right.

the one thing Canada and all the other countries with similar health systems is NOT - is free. It's free alright to the hundreds of thousands of freeloaders who don't earn a living - working Canadians pay much more in taxes than Americans do. If you're upper middle class you'll be paying more for healthcare via taxes than a similar person in the United States pays for a good health insurance plan.

If you're poor or working class 'free' healthcare is great. That's the philosophy of it - that good healthcare should be for everybody regardless of their station in life. It's a huge load on taxpayers and depending on the type of illness you have can be dangerous to your life.

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GreyWolf

The story of the two fingers was more than pathetic *lol* What doctor would actually only elect to perform an operation based on cost and leave a person one fingertip short?? (Other than in the US).

The irony is any US person travelling thru any universal healthcare country would have medical attention if needed - and at no cost. If it was the guy missing his fingers - they would attempt to replace both of them without talking about money.

Yup - can think of even a few evolving countries where US people travel to get treatment like heart operations - tho most of this is fee-based, but at around 25% of the cost of the same operation in the US.

Got this healthcare travel insurance and it's OK on cost - unless you elect to travel to the US *lol* Then the cost increases around 5 fold. Can see the point of that elderly lady from Canada not travelling to the US unless she had healthcare insurance.

Truth is healthcare has become a profit center for the benefit of insurance companies - all they need to do now is expand that to include services from law enforcement and fire services - then check with the insurance company when there is a murder to see if it's covered before calling the law *lol*

GreyWolf

Sure.. would consider healthcare to be a basic human right - it's the only healthcare I've ever known and can think of many people who are thankful for that over their lifetimes. I'd be more than happy to pay extra for people who may not earn much to ensure they all get full healthcare.

One particular US friend had severe healthcare problems - after having "served" the US well. Because of that favorite "pre-existing condition" excuse and having paid out a substantial lump of money - there were no funds left. That was the first clue I ever knew anything was wrong with US healthcare - where it would allow anyone with a very serious condition to go untreated. I ended up paying a substantial amount to complete the treatment and all is well now - but annoying that a "first league country" can't actually take care of it's own people.

It's worth noting that tho we many moan about costs in universal healthcare countries - it's still a lot cheaper per person for taxation in healthcare than it is in the US. Bets on - if the US provided a universal healthcare option - the overall current costs would sink over a few years when the preventative medicine element kicks in.

pornask

I think someone said it here that the total cost of health care in Canada (what we pay in taxes) is overall more than what it would cost a US citizen to pay cash for his treatment. I don't know whether this were true or not, but I think it's not even so much a matter of how much it's going to cost you over the priod of years - it's more of a matter of not being rejected when you go to the hospital, or being told that this is not covered by the type of insurance you've been paying for, etc. It's a peace of mind, more than anything, that should a situation arise, I will be taken care of. And I think this is what many people in the US fear (maybe not those who are well off, but anyway) when they complain about their health care system.

pimpware

That's why some other countries can't be at first league, because somehow more or less they take care of it's own people, of course it is expensive.

Dealing with money the way US does, many countries could be rich as US, but in this life money it's not everything

Remember a rich person can get top quality healthcare anywhere in the world, poor people are fucked up

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pornask

...not if you live in Canada. You're gonna get the same medical assistance regardless... even if you're poor.

Firehorse

The public medical system in Australia is a mess, even politicians can't deny it publicly any more!

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Fizzgig

There is an exception to this rule. It's possible to live in Canada and not have access to necessary health care, but it takes some really bad luck to fall into that category.

Don't even ask, I'm sure none of you will ever have to worry about it.

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Twisted Dave

LOL! So what? I'm a UK taxpayer, and I don't mind ... because there's a LOT of fucking countries with much worse healthcare!

Taxes suck, but I'm sorry ... how the hell do you think this country would be without a National Health Service?

We'd be fucked.

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Porn Farmer

Please point me to a link where a politican has called Australia's medical system a mess.

Aside from the isolated Dr. Death incident in Bundaberg the system is actually coping quite well.

buzzy

erm actually we only pay a couple of % more than you americans

BigCashCrew

yeah. you are proving my point. it was not free. you had to pay for it.

BigCashCrew

yeah. you are proving my point. it was not free. you had to pay for it.

Doctor Dre

In the canadian healthcare system you have to wait, but at least you're not getting fucked in the ass by the big corporations.

There are horror stories in every system. But I like our system even thought it's not perfect.

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eroswebmaster

Imagine if we had universal health and dental care in America.

Imagine how many sick days we could eliminate causing downtime in business.

Imagine how many people's self confidence would be boosted because they had a beautiful smile, therefore moving up to a better job and not having to suffer in lower economic status.

Imagine how much less we would spend because preventative health care caught someone's disease before it became terminal.

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tranza

Aren't you a tax payer too?

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BigCashCrew

Read above and see what my original quote was and then read the reply to my quote... then read my reply.
Yes, I am a tax payer.

pornask

This is true. I stole the following from a Canadian board - Canadian Health Care vs "Sicko" by Michael Moore - but it pretty much sums it up nicely:

Despite US being the most powerful economy, I think they fail to realize that it is NOT cheaper to not have universal health care. Because if you let people get sick, the cost for a society increases on an overall scale.

If people in your country become sick and remain sick due to their inability to afford a medical care, what happens is that your resources squander - namely their human resources, among other things by failing to give a chance to the weak, sick, disabled to live a productive life, abandoning them to be a burden to their family and their community. Children, old people, disabled can be left to their own devices. Or not. Guess what is cheaper at the end of the day?

BigCashCrew

It looks like anyone who makes over £34,600 gets taxed 40%. Compare that to the highest tax bracket in the US which is 35% if you earn $336,551 and above.

£34,600.00 is $46,853.63 is USD. In the USA you would only pay 25% taxes on that. We have 2 more tax brackets before you get to the highest bracket of 35%. Looks like you have to pay more taxes.

Tax Bracket In the USA.
* 10%: from $0 to $7,550
* 15%: from $7,551 to $30,650
* 25%: from $30,651 to $74,200
* 28%: from $74,201 to $154,800
* 33%: from $154,801 to $336,550
* 35%: $336,551 and above

Tax Bracket In the UK

Taxable Bands table Taxable Bands Allowances 2007-08 (£)

Starting rate 10% 0 - 2,230
Basic rate 22% 2,231 - 34,600
Higher rate 40% over 34,600

Probono

In the US we also pay Social Security and Medicare taxes that are scaled to cost the most to the poor and middle class, plus in most states a state income tax. we also still get to pay for health and dental insurance if we can get them and afford them.

After reading the responses to this I think Michael Moore hit right on target and that the ingrained fear of "socialism" is a nonsense propaganda move funded by government and big business. Reality is that the US system does pay for the poor they end in emergency rooms and their fees are either paid for by government or those patients that pay their bills. If they system did provide free healthcare to all then costs would actually be reduced.

Probono

Waiting for someone to explain how US taxes are really lower? We have been lied to and mislead on many things in the Us because until the Internet person to person communication across international borders was rare.

The Duck

Dental in Sweden is free up untilk your 20th birthday I believe, after that you need an insurance or its very very expensive. The cost of dental care is a hot topic in Sweden right now.

As for all other healthcare you pay a maximum of something like $200 a year for healthcare and medication, after that its free.

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CDSmith

You're right on the money there.

But I'll beg to disagree with you on that point. Canadians earning a higher income pay in the 40-45% range for income tax. So do Americans.
Canadians earning a middle or moderate level of income pay in the 35-40% range... so do Americans.

Maybe it differs from place to place in Canada, I don't know, but I've been a taxpaying citizen for over 26 years and know 100's of others in all tax brackets from low to high and I'm not seeing a difference in what we pay in income tax to what Americans pay. 40% is 40% regardless of what country you live in. I know some in the US pay as much as $600 to $1k per month for health insurance PLUS they pay income tax. How is that cheaper than what we pay in taxes alone? It isn't.


And nothing beats going in for a hospital stay, getting top level care, and leaving with a bill of $0.00 owing. Nothing. I'm not nor would I ever say our system is perfect, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.

How many have come onto this very board in the past 6 years and told of how they or someone they know has gone in for some emergency surgery or trauma etc and now owes tens of thousands of dollars? How many? I can recall dozens. NO thank you.

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GreyWolf

Doubt you'll get an answer.....

Face value taxes are, give or take a few percent either way, much the same in most industrialized countries. Most will get creative and invent as many reasons to tax as possible - Europe has refined "creativity" in dreaming up reasons to tax, but overall, can't see any difference between the US and elsewhere on this.

Probably the biggest difference is in what levels of funding are actually given back to taxpayers (after the govts have siphoned off/squandered a cut) and where a spectrum of services are provided - ie various levels of education, healthcare etc

The US is not particularly noted for giving back "services" to taxpayers and this shows in basic services like both education and healthcare where the taxpayer is left to deal with these - at added, and often absurd cost.

Probably overall the US taxpayer is paying a high price - whether in direct taxes or extra costs related to healthcare, education etc where, in comparison, most goverments usually pay for this from the proceeds of existing taxation.

Axeman

Your math is horrible or your quite misinformed between pounds and the euro.
£35,000 = $70,000 US dollars.

In addition you live in one of the few states with no state income tax, but in the majority of US states, you have to add roughly 9% more to your federal taxes paid to get your true cost of taxes paid in income taxes. So your 25% is really 34% so 6% lower in actual paid income tax. Now you still have to pay for your health insurance and like a lot of Americans, copays and deductibles on top of that and fees for prescriptions and such.

Factor that in and I think your even if not paying more considering that if you make $5k more you pay an extra 3% in federal taxes.

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smax

Why do you consider health care a right?


There in lies the philosophically difference between many Americans and our European counterparts, many here want the least amount of government intervention in our day to day lives.

Americas health care system is socialized, we're just doing it the expensive way.

Panky

buzzy

Yeah hit the spot Axeman well said

GreyWolf

It is a basic fundamental issue - like having food to eat and air to breath in any civilized society. It is not about money or any opinions (other than those of a medical practioner) when an individual is suffering, has a serious health condition or has limbs hanging off which need urgent surgical procedures.

At the same time, it is an obligation and common sense for any individual to look after their own health issues to avoid the need for medical intervention. This can include using preventative medicine to reduce the need for more serious action in the future. Preventative medicine has a serious postive impact at both an individual level, but also in the overall economy of every business/country.

The key phrase in health is "accessable healthcare" and there is no reason on earth why any civilized society should not have this - if they don't, it is a fundamental failure. Accessible healthcare means "instant" action regardless of cost considerations.

Whatever is it labelled - socialized medicine or whatever term, - it is a reflection of any region/nation when it cannot, or has not made provision to aid it's own taxpayers/citizens who may need medical attention and who may fall between the cracks. Again... the keyphrase is "socially responsible". Whether any government has the aptitude to mange this efficiently is another matter - unfortunately most governments are useless in many areas and bogged down in bureaucracy.

Almost all industrialized countries have a government monitored healthcare system in place, but - there are also options for the private sector within most of these situations. An individual can elect to have private healthcare if they wish and accomodated within private clinics at a cost.

There is no evidence that healthcare can be left to private enterprise and delivered at an acceptable cost (forgetting everyone will complain about any cost). The responsibity of any private enterprise is to produce profits for their shareholders and this can fall into conflict with medical recommendations on healthcare. In the US this is further complicated by HMO's/insurance companies and the pharamceutical industry who have been given a blank check to charge whatever they like for supplying pills to the public - and to hospital groups. (On the pharma companies - no other nation on earth would permit the advertising of medical products in the media to the extent allowed in the US. The person who is paying for that level of excessive advertising is the public and at a rip off price.)

On any government operated system there are plenty grounds for having doubts. At the same time, the acid test is what the governments of all industrialized countries (excluding the US) have achieved so far on healthcare. This has been relatively successful, tho may have regional variations, but doubtful many people would elect to change their nation's universal healthcare system - it is clearly more cost-effective and delivers an acceptable standard of quality than a private sector alternative.


Depends what you mean by socialized. There appears to be a conflict between "socialized" and for profit. At an individual level, ie... doctors and nursing staff - they, at least in the majority, are excellent and elected to enter their professions not because of salaries, but thru a genuine interest and being socially responsible.

The other angle to that are the private sector managers and hospital groups owners who have a totally different agenda - namely to produce a profit for shareholders. By it's nature, any corporation is predatory and they have nothing to do with being socialized - although they may produce advertising to portray how "caring" they are. But.... the sole object is to create customers, sell to these customers at the highest price possible and show a healthy profit/loss statement (classic description of pharmaceutical companies).

Would suspect the only "socialized" element of the US system remains with the actual medical staff - docs and nurses and very few others.

smax

I disagree with your idea of basic health care being a fundamental right because its flat out wrong. By definition a fundamental right is a right that has its origin in a country's constitution or that is necessarily implied from the terms of that constitution. Nowhere in the US constitution does it mention right to free or affordable health care, I think you are confusing a fundamental right with moral obligation.

By stating that America has a socialized med system already I was referring to how everyone who is need of medical treatment gets in by going to the hospital even if they don't have insurance they will still be treated and who ends up paying for it? Everyone else, hence my statement.

While I do agree that our health system needs some help, trust me I heard it growing up since both my parent are physicians, part of the blame needs to be put on the American public themselves. We aren't the healthiest bunch by our own doing, many are obese obese, smoke, drink excessively, eat at fast food joints everyday, sit in front of the TV/internet all day, never exercise?

aico

Not only are Health Insurance companies screwing people, but now in Maryland, they just passed a law that if you are not insured, you have to pay fines.

Try to guess who wanted this law passed?

Cypherpunk

Its pretty good, u might get the odd long wait in A&E for a non emergency - but free health care rules!

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pocketkangaroo

You pay 40% for most middle class people. In the US, it's about 25% for the same person. In fact, we don't have a rate over 35%.

So if you make $100,000 a year, you'll pay around 28% in the US and 40% in the UK. That's a difference in $12,000 a year, and $1000 a month. You can easily provide the best health insurance for your family for under that.

Axeman

Your forgetting about state income tax which most states have. for $100k rate your looking at about 9% on top of the 28% federal.

Now if your in one of those states with no state income tax, then yes its a savings and you can pay for your increased health care and hope they don't ever try to fuck you.

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