Every state has programs for the poor even if they cant get Medicaid. NY has one called Healthy NY, but for a single person to qualify, they have to earn less than $25,000 per year! How do they even survive in the first place?

yeah, exactly. And what about the guys who make $35k a year? All of the sudden they're supposed to be able to afford thousands of dollars of medical debt when something goes wrong?

thats because America runs off DEBT.

Yeah. I'm just lucky that I save my income rather than splurge it. So I have savings to cover things I guess. Plus it's no-interest and tax deductible, but still it's debt and I pride myself in being debt-free..

Thats cool, i'l enjoy watching that

So you're ok with losing all of your savings if something bad were to happen?

Situation (just an example, or "what if"): A member of your family becomes deathly ill, and has to spend 3-5 months in a hospital.

America: You deal with the drama of having your loved one in a horrible situation, and at the same time accumulate large amounts of debt. Even though you're covered by insurance, you have deductibles and fees that are "not covered" by insurance racking up. The whole time you are fighting with insurance, making sure that everything is covered. You get to deal with a lot of this when you get home.

Canada: You deal with the drama of having your loved one in the hospital.

I love this country, no doubt about it. I've served in the military and consider myself to be very patriotic. But one of the best quotes from that movie, from a retired politician in the UK, went something like "Well, we figure that if we can afford to fight wars abroad, we can afford to take care of our people."

Wanna hear about private health care, my dad was diagnosised with a fast growing cancer.Then in the next breath he is told the specialist cant see him for at least two weeks and for another specialist he needs to maybe Oct. My Mom works for a big Dr in a large hospital, if it wasnt for those connections she has. My dad wouldn't of gotten in immediately,wouldnt be starting treatment today and would probably die waiting for treatment.

That's a pretty unfounded statement... if there was a clear cut answer on what political systems worked best every country would be the same. The world was "private enterprise" long before todays governments existed, it's not something new or American by any means. I get a kick out of Libertarians that think they've all discovered something new and improved.

Wow, I just had an epiphany. Since private enterprise can do things better than cheaper why don't we privatize all of the police, fire and rescue forces in America...it will be great.

Everyone can just buy police and fire insurance and we will save the taxpayers BILLIONS of dollars a year!

No more need to waste thousands of man hours policing the poor or sending fire trucks or rescue workers into dangerous neighborhoods, we will save BILLIONS!

Of course, if you DO get pulled over for something like speeding it wont be so easy as just signing your name on a ticket. There will be 8 or 9 pages of forms to fill out, but c'mon...were gonna save BILLIONS!

I, like DaddyHalbucks, just don't trust big government at all. Let's privatize everything, not just healthcare. We will save BILLIONS and our lives will be so much better.

There already IS privatized police and fire departments. Many upscale neighborhoods have their own security patrol (I'm sure you aren't "allowed" to call them the police) and many have their own fire department.

My subdivision took donations and we opened up our own fire department with the building right on the street to the neighborhood. It's staffed by volunteers (actually all the firemen around here are volunteers) and we bought the fire truck too. No government :)

:thumbsup :thumbsup Don't forget about public education either, a huge trillion dollar expense right there. It's about time we let Coca Cola and GM run our schools, saving tax payers money and since we now have to pay for public education, it means everyone will work harder to be able to get it! It'll make society better! And all the poor people who can't afford it? Well that's even better! It'll completely negate the need for huge corporations to use illegal aliens to do the work that "Americans don't want to do" because we will create a permanent slave class right here at home! It's brilliant! PRIVATIZATION ROCKS!

Anyone have a new link for the movie?

I tried it a couple of times, and its gone.

lol, you guys who think it's better to live in the UK or France are some fucking idiots. Go move your dumbasses over to France and see how you like it lol... good luck with that. Moore makes it sound like they are so fucking great and that everything is free, why the hell do you think everyone in the world comes to the United States for education? France might have some free education, but it's only like 2 of the shittiest universities you have ever seen in your life...

Peaches...this is a great start! How do we get the rest of the country to realize that this is the best way to do things? Every neighborhood should have to hire their own security and buy there own fire trucks. Just imagine how quickly places like East L.A. will be in ashes. Then we can build bigger and better things with all the money we save! It is brilliant!

I hear that. And that is one of the reasons that people are FLOCKING south of the border. The Doctors in Mexico, about 90% of them have a practice in the US, but in Mexico they charge WAY the fuck less for a visit, or treatment, and make a hell of a lot more.

The average doctor here for a visit is about 35$ cash. No insurance taken. So you pay, the doc gets more than the 10$ the insurance wants to pay him for the same visit, and you get the medical attention with 1/8 of the wait.

I don't think I said to get rid of state/city/town funded police/fire departments, I showed where it has been privatized and done very well :thumbsup Ditto with education.

My personal doctor won't even take Medicare and Medicaid patients any more because the programs are so screwed up and it takes MONTHS to get a payment. When/if the federal government socializes everyone's medicine in the US, get ready to see doctors retire and fewer even getting into the profession.

That has more to do with the legal system in the US than the medical system.

You make some good points but missed a few things. I live in Oregon and I can tell you the health care program isn't just given to anyone that is poor. If you are a pregnant woman you can get on it with almost no problems, but if you are a single person and have next to no income it is still very hard or impossible to get on it. However it is there and if you go to the hospital and have no insurance they automatically fill out the application for it so it may end up paying for your visit. This is a strange state. We have assisted suicide and medical marijuana, but we can't pump are own gas or buy hard liquor in regular grocer stores. So I'm trusted to decided when I want to end my life and how I want to self medicate if I'm sick, but I can't be trusted to buy a bottle a bottle vodka in the same place I buy a loaf of break nor am I trustworthy enough to pump my own gas.

I agree that the baby boomers are a huge strain on the system and it is only going to get worse. One of the fastest growing businesses in the nation is elderly care. The problem is that most of these people never had jobs that offered any kind of retirement or pension benefits so they are now stuck on social security and have no other income. These retirement homes can't afford to provide good care for these people for what little social security pays.

Third, I think having health care for everyone would curb the number of people that go the emergency room for every little thing. There will be people that abuse it still, but if you have insurance you can now go see a regular doctor so they have other options. If you have no insurance you go to the emergency room because they will see you and ultimately you don't have to pay the bill if you don't have the money. They will come after you, but eventually they will determine you are unable to pay the bill and they will just eat the cost and pass the bill on the tax payers.

*sigh*...

There are great universities in your country no doubt about it but there are great universities in a lot of other countries as well. For example, the university I attended in Canada was the best in North America for the field I was studying and I would have gotten a substandard education in that field at all other universites.

Not everything in the US is the biggest and the best it just seems like that because the TV tells ya so... but some things are :)

well well

there's no doubt that you have a snotty and fucked up health system in the U.S.
BUT are you willing to do what it takes to make things right?
In denmark we have excellent health care, but we do pay 4x as much for gasoline and 3x as much for cars....
we also pay 48% in taxes and the hardest working pay of their top earnings 62%....

The money has to come from somewhere and the way you guys normally complain about gas prices I find it very hard to believe that people are willing to make the sacrifice needed...
you can't just judge society... you are the society...

link didnt work for me

I dont entirely disagree with Michael Moore's morals, but the way he presents his case is often pretty silly.

I despise Micheal Moore but I hopefully this brings healthcare to the forefront and breaks some people out of their "America: love it or leave it" views

Wrong... Growing up my parents did the foreign exchange thing and we were host to a German kid, a French kid, an Italian kid and a Spanish kid. All were in the same educational year or equivalent as me at the time of their stay.

All of them thought our school system was a joke. You didn't learn anything and more importantly, didn't feel obligated or pressured to learn anything. If you wanted to fuck off it is to easy here.

All of the students we brought over could speak 2 to 4 languages. The German kid not only spoke German and English but also French, some Russian, Spanish and some Italian. This kid made me feel like a moron. He constantly corrected my bad English!

I guess it's a good thing the movie is about HEALTH CARE and not EDUCATION... I bet anyone one who went to any of those two shitty French schools would be educated enough to realize that small point.

The French kid was appalled by our science department. All of them thought our mathematics departments sucked. Our English classes were jokes and they wondered why our social studies (history) seemed to only talk about America and then briefly touched on Egypt. They knew everything about the middle east. A region I only learned about when we went to war with them.

Face it, we are fucking idiots because of privatization and corporate greed.

Anybody have a new and working link to this movie? Thanks.

Where'd you hear that? At a US university I bet.. Many of the highest rated universities in the world are in other countries (in the UK for example).

He said that as long as the dl doesn't bring money, it is OK ...

So here goes for DVD quality :


http://rapidshare.com/files/36898890...REET.part1.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/36898966...REET.part2.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/36899225...REET.part3.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/36898985...REET.part4.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/36898990...REET.part5.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/36899021...REET.part6.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/36899070...REET.part7.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/36898922...REET.part8.rar


Mirror:

http://www.megaupload.com/?f=IPK0DXWC

Damn man you got some balls posting a pirated DVD on rapidshare here in this forum... wtffff...

Who said it wasn't about Health Care? I watched the whole DVD last week, I think I would know this. The people in France in the movie were also explaining how education is also free there, so I commented on it... if that's okay with you...

?I don?t agree with the copyright laws and I don?t have a problem with people downloading the movie and sharing it with people as long as they?re not trying to make a profit off my labor,? Mr. Moore said at the time.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/200...ks-to-the-web/

.. so much for "balls"

I don't give a fuck what Michael Moore's fat ass has to say about it. You're still supporting companies like rapidshare by posting the links...

Oh, I see ... I remember rubbing your face in shit a few months back .... That is what it is about ... :1orglaugh

BTW, the rs links are dead ... as your brain ...


Bill O'reilly is on in 2 minutes ....

Um, it was a Google video link....

And if you knew anything about marketing you would know they did it on purpose to cause a buzz for the movie.

Link saved... thanks:)

Good luck with that.

He was pointing out how much more the average citizen gets in France. Besides dishing out tons of money for health care, we also pay 6 figures to get a college degree. Their educational system isn't bad, it's fairly good actually.

Uhm, no, the dude I was talking to posted rapidshare links...

Are you sure about that? I don't remember ever interacting with you in my life...

It may be a good time to review education standards in other countries - France does in fact have a couple of leading universities in the world, followed by Spain and the UK.

incentives
 

IMO there is too much corruption and the incentive structure is out of whack. The insurance companies are trying to obtain more profit at the expense of social morality.

I think the government should NOT socialize medacine, BUT change the incentives.

In other words. take the strength of the free market to make people healthier.

We all know its cheaper to have preventitive medicine then intervention at hospitals..

so why can't the insurance companies start making people be healthy to obtain coverage?

1) You have to exercise
2) You can't eat cheesy poofs and drink soda all day and expect to get unlimited coverage. even the government(i.e. taxpayers) would lose money keeping these people alive.
3) Stop people from smoking and other proven things that kill you slowly over time.
4) What about making people going to the gym and getting credit for it. The healthier you are, the cheaper your coverage is. Heck, make it competitive..

that is enough for health insurance companies to offer more affordable rates, I think the incentives are just cluster fucked because people LOVE to look at the WHAT instead of WHY...

Also, after seeing the film. I agree that it was good, but was overly emotional (As usual) and didn't see the bigger picture.

OUR CULTURE is shit, we eat like shit, we have no unity, we have shitty leaders, corrupt politicians, should I go on....?

Our family unit died a long time ago, everyone should look at 1913 as an important year. The creation of the federal reserve. Thats how our money was inflated to almost zero (almost there, good job Fed...).

Our global competitiveness is zero, we export our worthless dollars in exchange for items of real value.. I really feel if people had any fucking economic sense this wouldn't be so suprising..

One thing I did like in his film was when he talked about how the french protested alot. That is one thing we need here. people getting off their fat complacent asses and doing something, even if its stupid or misguided...

Amen to that.

Same in the UK - there would be a riot if politicians started messing with healthcare. (Despite that - we can always moan like hell just because :winkwink:)

They've made that harder to do now. We have "first amendment zones" now.