Oh, and one more thing: it doesn't relieve you of US taxes either.

So, what's the point?

Thanks for the info GreyWolf, that's exactly what I thought too and since I made those posts I did a bit of research on the subject. It seems like a lot of people who open an offshore company with an offshore bank account and just withdraw cash from ATMs in the country where they live and generally do business are just asking for trouble.

I guess you can minimize taxes if the structure is right, but can't completely avoid the issue if you want to remain 100% legal. Damn, I knew it couldn't be that easy.

:) OK... Basically goes like this - if you are a UK citizen, you don't have the same restrictions as those of US citizens. This means... you can, if you wish, elect to live in another country (and you may have to pay taxes in that country, depending), but you are not required to file any tax returns to UK Inland Revenue (excepting any "benefits" you may still be getting from within the UK eg assets such as home rental etc while you are living elsewhere).

You are free to open as many OS bank accounts as you wish - however, the moment you "benefit" from these accounts and bring funds into the UK - tax becomes payable on these funds.

Another scenario is - you can move out of the UK and live in a no tax jurisdiction and there is no requirement to file any returns with UK IR or the no tax jurisdiction where you elected to live.

There is the other scenario of offshore structures and where you remain resident in the UK. This can minimize taxation, but does require legal advice. In practice, this advice is rarely good (prob because it comes from onshore lawyers/accountants talking about elements they have no clue about - else they would also be offshore *s*), but they can be good about advice in eg the UK.

Opening OS bank accounts and using plastic cards at ATM's is not legitimate and is detectable - that day ended years ago and it's only a matter of time before it is uncovered.

You are correct, Israel is the other country.

Yes... the plastic card syndrome is not a good idea these days :) It may have worked 10-20 years ago, but still a risk of damage if it was uncovered. It's far better to remain "legal" and not get hassled and penalized.

Seriously.. the simplest scenario, tho that depends often on personal and family circumstances - is to simply move offshore. You still remain a citizen of your own country and happen to live elsewhere, but can still return to your "home country" and visit family and friends etc - tho there is the tendency they may want to visit you instead :winkwink:

As an American, if I open a company in another country.. that company is taxed based on that countries tax laws. If I pay myself, then that money is part of my personal world wide income and is taxed.

I lived in Canada, I paid Canadian taxes and not American because Canadian tax is higher. If I lived in a country that had lower tax, I would have to pay the difference to the American Gov on the money I personally earned.

To bring money in, is were alarms are set off. The visa cards often aren't in your personal name, which is why it works as long as you don't go stupid.

2257, is a hitch.. If you own, even lets say .1% of a company that is adult but you are American, are you responsible? When do you become responsible? If you get a paycheck or a dividend?

And to end it all.. Isn't the proper way to do this to open a foundation, transfer the money to gold, move it to the foundation, convert it back and pay your self tax free?... Some shit like that.

Can you tell "Chad Knows Law" and his friend Eric that international webmasters have no obligation whatsoever to pay the slightest attention to US domestic law unless they host, live or operate any business within US territory.

Yea? :winkwink: I could never have guessed. How many times has this been already stated on this thread???

Fairly detailed and complex scenario man.... I'm not familiar with the exact IRS rulings on US citizens - it's a complex area and would need serious professional advice.

Maybe :) Depends if there is a dual taxation treaty in place. It would not be normal to have any such treaty where there was little or no taxation. There are allowances from the IRS for foreign residency - something like $80K/year, but annual filings of all foreign corps are needed.

To be totally legitimate - there is nothing wrong for any US person to live in a no tax area. By doing do, they will get the $80K allowance and just have to report any income and pay whatever tax is due on that. They would not be paying any local taxes in the no tax area.

It may not be a coincidence - and, seriously may be true, but noticed most US folks always seem to earn around $75K year when living abroad :)

Dangerous area and one which is being monitored regularly. Any cards used in US territory are easily tracked. They would be blocked at the OS bank level and no account information would be provided by any OS bank, but I'm sure they have other ways to deal with that without working a dead end elsewhere.

Can't say about 2257 - doubt they have included that element, but, rest assured, they would probably make it up as they proceeded with some action.

From a tax angle, yes, that .1% would be relevant on filings and you are responsible for declaring that interest. But...there are sub-clauses to this and can't get specific, but relate to the capital of the corp and a few more factors. This is something for a US tax accountant.

Wish it was the solution :winkwink: Na.. any "benefits" recieved would be taxable.

I know it from the American point of viewing living in Canada and working. I can't really say how it works in other places..


Not at all, very safe, won't ever get blocked, and legal if done correctly.



Lots of Americans own other companies offshore, why I asked this.. Yeah, going to be a tough one.


I don't have to declare what the company made, I'm not a majority share holder. And I think I would need to be a director, maybe.



Hehe, read up on it.. It's not taxable income.. I just don't remember all the ins and outs of it. Gold isn't traceable by the US Gov once it has been converted. Paying yourself I think by dividend by a foundation is where you get away with it.

On the last point first :winkwink: - Yep, there may be a legal loophole, but would think any tax authority would want evidence from a foundation and probably some paperwork to establish the true purpose of the foundation, who the trustee is and all kinds of stuff.

Back to point one - let's put it this way, - the problem is not so much other countries, but down to personal circumstances and what citizenship an individual may hold. If that happens to be a US citizenship - major problems. If it is citzenship of any other industrialised country - not a big deal. In for example... the UK, it's simply a matter of announcing "I'm leaving - don't send any more tax forms" and you then live elsewhere and pay whatever or no tax depending on your new jurisdiction.

The second point - not sure where you are going on this. The use of plastic and drawing funds from foreign banks accounts where these funds are "earnings", and, not declaring these funds in a high tax regime, is illegal. Was not saying the cards would be blocked at the ATM end, but that no information would be provided at the bank-issuing end if that was an offshore area - that is what was mean't by blocking.

Point three - yes, there are plenty US folks with OS corps and most likely a fair amount are being operated legitimately and with good justification. (There are plenty reasons for OS other than taxation). However, bets are that the majority are no more than an excuse to avoid taxation while the beneficiaries remain within the US. This has been the source of many investigations and legal action over years.

Point four - Can't really comment on this - it's kinda complex when you say you are a US citizen living in Canada etc and really depends on the specifics of whatever scenario - not something to be published on a board :)

Summary! *s* There are ways to do whatever and achieve a good result, but these depend on citizenship, real purpose of any structure etc and are sure complicated if there is US citizenship involved. I'm not into bending rules and deviating to avoid taxation - it's far easier to have this transparent and comply with all laws and avoid hassle. For non-US folks, it is a lot easier than it sounds, tho if structures are involved, - it prob takes about a week thinking over the possibilities then - the rest falls into place fairly well.

I replied in the context of what the original poster seemed to be getting at and what most people on this board consider to be "going offshore".

Sure, but not for a US citizen, unless they want to give up their passport and renounce their citizenship. Alot easier from other countries, I myself dont live in my home country and have residency rights in more than one other country which makes my situation very fortunate and easy to do what you have suggested - pay no taxes (or no more than you choose to for other reasons).

That is very different to most of the people on this board who live full time in one country, or are US citizens. Off shore, or companies outside their home country can still be very beneficial.

Thats just wrong with very few exceptions which cost more money than its normally worth to avoid. While it may have been regularly possible 5 years ago and its sometimes possible now you are just asking for trouble at some point in the future.

Which was the point of my first post. Alot of the bigger corporations in Adult run multi country operations, and I know from first hand experience they regularly arent using the right company setup and paying more tax than they should.

Ultimatley anyone who is trying to avoid paying taxes on money they are spending IN their country of residence is asking for trouble. Just as stupid is paying more tax than you should when you have legitimate reasons and ways to minimise it.

Jayson, you once said you were recommending some banks in the EU, which were rather adult friendly and offered complete online banking - which specific banks did you have in mind?

you told someone to e-mail you back then (about 1 month ago), I inquired out of curioisity as well, but you didnt reply to me

I thought I replied to everyone, though it wouldnt be the first time I have overlooked an email.

Whats your email, and I will shoot you the info. Its not something you can organise yourself, and obviously banks dont want their names plastered on adult message boards.

aristocrat at gmail dot com

thanks in advance :)

Sure.. hear you Jayson :thumbsup

Personally, it is a lot easier actually having residency elsewhere as you say and electing to do what you want :)

The comment was never intended to apply to US people - and have never become involved with any OS stuff with US folks simply because there are too many problems.

The rest of the world (almost) is fine and agree - there is a valid use for whatever structures depending on circumstances and tax legislation within "home countries".

Unfortunately there are a fair number of people who are only interested in tax evasion and usually along the lines of OS accounts and plastic cards at ATM's - This is kinda amateur stuff and boring :) Agree, there are a lot of other possibilities - even other than taxation - where foreign corps can have a use and all depends on how they can be applied to whatever circumstances.

When you consider that "webmastering" and other support type services can be mobile, it is surprising that there are not more people taking advantage of that. Tho - a good few are, and have been operating physically offshore for a number of years now.

thanks, got it




and a bump for this thread, im always interested in reading offshore banking discussions on gfy

Why? Why has it changed in the last 5 years? VISA US and VISA EU don't use the same banks, or follow the same rules. As long as you don't 'live off the card' they would have no way of every knowing, tracking or finding out what the card is doing. It's not like you use it to take out cash.

Nothing should change, you keep your US based income, pay taxes, ect.. But when it's time for a couch (not a car) you pull out your special card.

Lets just say... I don't have one of these cards but I know a few people that may. The way around things is pure amazing and as long as you keep the greed in check, you will be fine.

What has changed is the desire of numerous countries (US, Australia for example) to crack down on this.

Combine that with the advances in computer software that lets them match data alot better.

More and more banks outside the US wont touch accounts that have a US citizen anyway associated with them because they dont want to deal with the data requests.

If you are tax resident in a country and spending money there then you should have paid tax on it.

If you are lucky you may get away with it for years, or you may not. The one thing it is not is 100% safe.

It has little to do with VISA US, VISA EU or VISA Mongolia, although there is monitoring on at least the first two regions.

You appear to be referring to the US, so - irrespective of the card, there is no problem tracking that card if this was a source of interest. There definately is an interest in any US citizen who appears to be have control, connected to an offshore corp or who is using an offshore credit card.

To quote "it's not like you use it (the card) to take out cash" but may use it to buy a couch. Do you not think, forgetting the cash part, that is more concrete evidence of a specific individual using a specific card at a specific location???

To quote, "The way around things is pure amazing and as long as you keep the greed in check, you will be fine." There is nothing amazing about it - it's called tax evasion.

In the last five years, - actually happened earlier than that - there have been various operations set up in both the US and EU to address the abuse of offshore scenarios being used illegally for tax evasion in the countries of the beneficiaries. Several prime cases have established principles involved, other action has been taken against, eg VISA International. In the EU laws have been amended to adopt these principles and in the US card monitoring is commonplace (for various reasons, not just related to tax evasion). On specifically US citizens using cards for tax evasion, there are monitoring facilities doing just that. Particularly with the US, there are MAT's (Mutual Assistance Treaties) in place for cooperation in financial crime and a range of other issues.

In the last 10 years or less there have been a series of rulings/enforcement by OECD imposed on what can be described as offshore's as well as industrialized countries. Almost all jurisdictions now comply with OECD rulings. (Will say, I don't agree with a number of these rulings for various reasons, but, it is not of great relevance as long as there is no illegal conduct.)

The core weakness in people using offshore facilities to attempt to evade taxation rests with one factor - "Where do they reside when operating these offshore facilities?" If they reside within a high tax regime country where they are obliged to follow the laws of that country - that is an obvious problem. Several EU countries now have rights to formally demand any other country open the banking accounts of any of their citizens who are involved in illegal activity. In the US, and relating specifically for US citizens, the tax laws are very clear already and annual reporting of all foreign income is mandatory. Failure to disclose is an offense.

Generally offshore banks have no interest in the tax arrangements of their clients - it is not their business. However, misuse of the laws of offshore areas to specifically commit financial crimes in other jurisdictions is not the type of business they want. They have all been there, done that and tired of hearing about it.

Summary - Re your quote - "Not at all, very safe, won't ever get blocked, and legal if done correctly." There is nothing "legal" about tax evasion and how safe this is depends on what level you like to gamble.

Totally agree Jayson.

You guys aren't even worth talking to about this. Everyone knows it isn't legal, that's the entire point. And you do pay taxes on the purchase, you don't pay tax on the money it ads to your possible income.

And you shouldn't have to pay taxes on it.. Since the entire tax code says corporations have to pay taxes with the US corporation, and the last time I checked, my ass wasn't a corporation, and you can't find anywhere that it says a human has to pay taxes.

The person with that card doesn't own the company, the card is simply issued to them. I can have a credit card for 100 different companies and I don't have to report crap.

Anyway, it's pointless to talk to you people. This entire thread is about off shore and paying less taxes.. It's not 'clean and cut' like YOU think.. Their are 100's of options, including foundations.

I am in same boat as yr friend and would love to hear from anyone regarding visa compliant processing from EU
I would stay away from the tax avoidance part though because the penalties can be severe

:1orglaugh

OK.. First para... If it is not legal under whatever jurisdiction you are obliged to comply with, you expect anything other than pointing out the obvious? Only my :2 cents:, but have no interest in encouraging/misguiding other people into an area of tax fraud, which will, most likely be detrimental to them.

This thread has outlined many possibilities (and sure, there are more) where there is a valid use of "legal" offshore facilities. To enter this area with a mentality of heading towards tax evasion is not healthy and very amateur. There are many valid uses of offshore - and any other structures - other than with an attutude of greed/fraud and these have several benefits, and, we take up these options where there is no personal or corporate taxation or form-filling. The difference is it is legal and there is no requirement to hide behind nominees (although - for other reasons, nominees can be useful), form vague foundations or use plastic cards to defraud.

Para two - "And you shouldn't have to pay taxes on it.." What you shouldn't do and what you are obliged by law to do, are two different things. I'm sure an IRS audit team will be pleased to explain - opinions don't matter.

Regarding the rest of para two, - the tax laws of the US are clear, and, I know some folks contest them, but they are the laws which are being applied now and those on which any tax evasion offenses would be based.

Summary - The type of activity you are suggesting has been the subject of enforcement operations in numerous countries, including the US, and it is not the type of business any offshore jurisdiction wants to attract. From an OS banking angle, all banks in offshore areas have regulatory authorities, and, just trust me on this - they know a lot more information than most banks as to what transactions pass thru these banks. Their job is to keep all banking "clean" and maintain the reputation of whatever OS jurisdiction - they don't like fraud/evasion too much :)

If you wish to take advantage of OS legally - there are other ways and this involves investing mainly time and some funds with experienced professionals and where there would be a need for complete disclosure of your background scenario since each person will be different. For US citizens, this is harder and may, or may not, be possible - many offshore lawyers feel they are unable to handle US folks because of this, but others can be just greedy enough to sell a few meaningless corps to them (as may have been the case with Richard Schueler). Other offshore lawyers will not enter US territory or give any advice within those territories.

Bottom line - it's all about *you* and what citizenship is held. That will dictate the laws applicable.

PS... Relating to Mr Schueler's demise/problems, since this is a classic example of what not to do. Mr Schueler elected to live in Panama for reasons well-known to him. He remains a US citizen with an obligation to comply with certain US laws irrespective of where he lives.

By moving to Pamana, this, in reality mean't he moved to a location which has a MAT (Mutual Assistance Treaty) with, specifically the US, and this enables an information flow direct to US authorities.

Very unwise move, but that is a common situation when the background personal circumstance have not been thought thru and not "clean", but with an ulterior motive. It is far easier to stay "legal" and avoid hassle.

I did say it was illegal, not legal. And it's bullshit that America and Israel are the only two countries that have to continue paying taxes even after you choose to work and live within another country.

Sure.. agree - you did say that :)

You are correct - there are around four countries where this applies. Prob the only "western" country which would be applicable to most people on this board is the US. The others are places like Lybia, Saudi etc.

It's probable that Pornguy was referring to the US citizen foreign resident allowance. There is an IRS allowance of around $80K for US folks who are resident in another country :thumbsup

Outside of my rants, this thread does contain a good deal of info. Overall it's just easier to stay and pay.

And for the record.. I don't have one of these cards, and like the rest of the sheep I pay my personal taxes, and of course I pay my corporate taxes which is law.

:) Sure - everyone is different and each probably have personal family issues and other factors to consider - and it's not always about taxes. In reality, I don't mind paying taxes, tho obviously prefer to minimize these. The main factor is not having to waste time accounting for taxation - did that for years and sick of it *lol*

The other major benefit is more lifestyle (you get used to no taxation when it's a "norm") - lifestyle is generally far higher than in industrialized countries and it would be hard to go back to that scenario without whining and moaning. Would also doubt it's just my experience (in fact, know it's not) - there are a wide range of interesting people "offshore" - this may be because they have achieved whatever in their own field of expertise and elected to plan a future life in "paradise world" locations. The chances of meeting that range of people in an industrialized society would probably be remote.

Other biz aspects are "opportunity" when that is blended with the concept of offshore. Some opportunities would just not have been feasible in an industralized country, but mean many millions when allied with offshore - and no taxation on these funds.

There is probably one golden rule which is - "Always comply with all laws in the jurisdiction in which you reside" - this applies to both on and offshore, but there is total freedom in the choice of that jurisdiction :)

I can set you up with a merchant account in EU, Netherlands based. You can email me jayson @ 2fpm com

You would want to be doing around $25K per week to make it worthwhile.

Jayson

wow! this thread actually got huge! :thumbsup

isn't it kinda too high for most of the webmasters here?

well he said merchant account for paysites, not a personal bank account for affiliates evading taxes :winkwink:

If you're a UK citizen, you can complete the P85 form and leave the UK and hence become a non-resident. You won't pay any taxes on income you make from then onwards as long as the income didn't come from the UK. You may come back to the UK but not stay more than 91 days in a tax year.

You can go live in, for example, Prague and rent and apartment there. You can stay in Czech Republic as long as you like if you a UK passport holder and rent an apartment long term. However they want you to have international health insurance and not ask for welfare/income support payments. With an ADSL broadband connection, you can run your business.

You can pay yourself huge dividends from the Cyprus LTD after a few years and go back to living in the UK without any of it being taxed. As long as you that massive dividend you paid yourself was while you were non-resident. Check out taxcafe .co .uk for books and then ask your accountant :)

Quality of apartments: www happyhouserentals.com/output.php?lim=0&ht=2&hs=2&adv=1&dtd=1

Hehe :winkwink::thumbsup

Interesting thread, how could I have missed this one :)

interesting thread, it worth a bump now

true :2 cents:

I tried Panama, Im a US citizen, there are many luxuries you give up when you leave the US or other 1st world countries...tax is usually high in certain places for decent reasons

Deprived of "luxuries"?? What would they be? :winkwink:

Tax is also non-existant in some places because they earn more from offshore services than they would ever earn from taxes - or, in the case of Panama, more than they would earn from the Panama Canal :)

if you are an American, you can not hide from your government. ;)

unless you fall off the grid completely and carry cash only.

Many countries have many Mutual Legal Assistance Treaties (MLATs) with other countries. This doesn't necessarily mean its bad. For instance, treaties exist that define standards for extradition or for the prosecution of serious crimes committed by citizens of the foreign country in question. The only MLAT currently in force between the US and Panama is this sort of treaty (see library.findlaw.com/1997/Dec/1/127851.html).

Panama has NO MLATs with the US having to do with the sharing of Tax information or Banking information and does not recognize court rulings from other countries involving crimes which are not also crimes recognized by Panama. Failure to pay taxes is not a crime in Panama. There is also no requirement to file which carries a criminal penalty for failure.

Yup, you'll get hit with tax evasion and be even more fucked than just having to pay some back taxes

You are actually mostly correct.

Ownership is the path to liability. He who owns, pays.

There is no reason at all to renounce your U.S. citizenship, however. You don't even have to move.

However, there is no reason one must own the asset in order to control and benefit from it.

In Panama, for instance, it's possible to conceal the true owner of an entity while at the same time remaining in complete control. And it can be structured in a way that, even if the owner is discovered, it isn't you, so no liability can be attached.

What I'm trying to say is, if you relinquish ownership, but retain control, you're in a position to benefit totally but have no liability.

Well, that depends on one's definition of "going offshore", of course.

If I own a business and I simply redomicile that business in another jurisdiction and continue with business as usual, I will likely not have avoided much tax liability.

However, If I effectively shut down my business in my home jurisdiction, then direct that a similar business, which I do NOT own, open up in another jurisdiction (according to the laws of that jurisdiction) that I elect to control and manage, I might find that my tax liability is greatly reduced or even eliminated altogether due to the sharp reduction in personal "income". Also, depending on which jurisdiction I selected, the corporate tax liability may be much lower or non-existent as well.

I'd like the capability to travel abroad, but California is a killer place to live.

My reasons for wanting to go offshore are to avoid the celebrity attorneys that just want to make some quick money by scaring you with C&D. My feeling is that if they see you are offshore they will be much less likely to pursue anything since it would require actually filing papers in that actual country. I may be mistaken about this but I have always been told if they can't find you they can't sue you. In regards to tax reduction why can't I have offshore merchant accounts, bank accounts and simply make trips over to the country with a few friends each bringing back $!0k in cash (which last I checked was the amount you didn't have to declare with customs) In addition I could purchase precious metals and other things of value. Since there should be no record of this wouldn't this amount of money be "taxfree'"? After which I would then file US corp taxes for a much lesser amount as to not wonder how I am supporting my "lifestyle" It's obvious they will follow bank transactions and such but since I physically got the money there would be no record of me bringing it over. Am I way off here or is somewhat of a "solution"

This is not true if you live abroad and claim foreign income. If you are working abroad, it doesn't matter where the income comes from or where it is paid to. It still falls under foreign income, thus if you are able to qualify for the 80k (82k I think it is now) break, you claim a modest salary, could be... 70k, and you sir don't pay taxes to the USA so long as you set up your business in a tax free country. Or even if you claim 100k salary, after the 80k exemption that leaves 20k, plus some deductions and what not, you will end up paying around $4000 in taxes if done right, while the company makes the bank in a tax free country.

Offshore merchant accounts feeding offshore bank accounts held by offshore corporations: all good things in and of themselves.

I have a number of clients/associates who elect to repatriate assets by physically bringing cash or precious metals back to the states following a trip to their offshore jurisdiction. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but its definitely not necessary. There are many ways to repatriate funds without raising suspicion, incurring a tax liability or violating the law. One such way is a loan. Lent funds are not taxable income. One can apply for and receive a loan from an offshore company on private terms of repayment. If you're not proficient ant documenting such transactions, it is easy to hire an attorney or CPA to draft the appropriate Note for execution by representatives for the offshore entity and yourself.

Also, proper structuring should result in a seriously decreased need for personal funds. Expenses such as travel, living, utilities and entertainment can and should be paid for by Corporate entities and in the name of corporate entities.

i wanna hear more....bump!