50 shady programmers :Oh crap

Wrong spacedog.

As a developer, unless specifically stated otherwise, I own the rights to code I create. period.

Now, I have some class, so I do not undercut my clients. If someone comes to me with a project and I develop it and in the end I have something I think could be a product I then go back to my client and say what do you think?

Sometimes the client does not want it distributed, in which case I say cool. In other cases, if they are for it, we split on the proceeds because, in all fairness, it is their idea we worked from.

But, the code is always mine if I designed and wrote it and I never give up my rights to my code. period. The client has license to use the code.

But, as people said earlier in the thread, a contract and ndas would have spelled out the rights and their would be no question at this point.

:thumbsup :thumbsup

This is complete bs, really.

You're right, NDAs should have been signed - but NDAs don't hold up in court. The fact of the matter is the guy is an arsehole.

I've had similar projects: you go to a programmer with ideas, they code them or suddenly feel like they're owed a percentage. Good programmers with ethics and social skills are hard to find.

Bodies 0f 9/11 victims used to fill potholes
 

whoops edit

of course i'm like wtf. i would have gladly payed an additional 40% on top of the cost for full rights to the script and i would have sold it myself if i knew this was the bullshit deal i was going to get stuck with.

i have not NP'd anything yet, i am still sour about it, but I have accepted the fact that this is going to pan out however the fuck it pans out. i'm still not naming any names inhopes that it won't go anywhere, but if it does don't think that i won't go throwing around copies of the script to anyone i already like. might as well....

the contract wouldn't mean anything as you don't really know who you signing the contract with. they could put any name down and then try to fight it cause he never sold it to you, but someone he has no idea who is did.
that's what happens when you deal with people sometimes i guess.
especially if it's not face to face cause if it was face to face, you know who you dealing with.
yes it would cost more to get the work done here but at least you know who you dealing with and if things go bad, you can always take them to court for breach of contract.

what the fuck is wrong with you saying bodies of 9/11 victims used to fill potholes.
you are one big fucken asshole.

That sucks.. You should try to get a %, what I would do.

Since we do NATS stuff, clients will come to us with a big head wanting a full custom project. Once we layout a 20-30k price tag, most back off. But what we have done is a build on project idea. You come in, pay $5k - get the $30k scripts and we add to it each time someone buys in, and everyone gets the upgrade.

Otherwise if someone is going to make money on your idea, get a %!

Well best way to avoid such problems is to create enterly new script with new code which do same thing.Of course then it still will be idea copy,but you cant prevent that unless you have patent on your idea.

define fair price, if someone wants a script from me exclusively i get an equity stake in the business for my coding. Otherwise it is just a licience.

As for what to do it depends on what rights you aquired for the script, if he assigned all rights send him a DCMA complient statement.

IF he gave you resell rights under cut him and take his business away from him.

if you only got operational rights your screwed take your lumps like a man

You should of come to an agreement with him beforehand.. seriously.

My company has done development work for large organisations and we always insist on keeping the intellectual property.

Code is covered by copyright law

according to the canadian copyright act (i am canadian so)

"13. (1) Subject to this Act, the author of a work shall be the first owner of the copyright therein. "


and

"(4) The owner of the copyright in any work may assign the right, either wholly or partially, and either generally or subject to limitations relating to territory, medium or sector of the market or other limitations relating to the scope of the assignment, and either for the whole term of the copyright or for any other part thereof, and may grant any interest in the right by licence, but no assignment or grant is valid unless it is in writing signed by the owner of the right in respect of which the assignment or grant is made, or by the owner?s duly authorized agent. "


the law does grant the employer first right of ownership

"Where the author of a work was in the employment of some other person under a contract of service or apprenticeship and the work was made in the course of his employment by that person, the person by whom the author was employed shall.

but contract of services (standard employment, with all required payments to government institutions-- UI, CPP , full complience with the employement act) is significantly different from contract for services (outsource contract)

i think he was making a thread but was in the wrong window.

dont be so harsh on jumping the gun there buddy.

as for the topic in hand, legally there is nothing wrong i dont think, but its pretty gay that it happens.

check my other posting. i apologized as i was brought to the attention of something in particular but he never made me or the rest of the board aware of it in advance when he posted that comment.

If you have nothing to do. don't do it here.

If the client comes up with the new and unique ideas behind the script, then the programmer has claim to only the code itself. That is, how the concept was implemented in general, the design... but not what the script actually does. The programmer may not be able to resell it to other clients.

Here is a similar real world analogy.

Let's say I come up with a new invention on paper, but I am totally clueless on how to build it. We'll say it's the first ever lampshade. So I walk into a factory and say, "My concept is to wrap some form of material around a lightbulb that attaches to the lamp with wire, make it happen." They design it's specific look and decide what materials to use.

Can they patent my idea just because they were the first ones to implement it into a working model? Absolutely not. Without a prior agreement, does that mean I can take their design and mass produce my idea in their form? Again, no.

There is only one concept, but there could be 10,000 different designs. So what we've got here is a script (one design) that the programmer owns, but he can't sell again because the client owns the concept. On the other hand if the client also wanted to resell the script (or make it freeware), he would need to have the programmer sign off all rights to his design of the concept (the code in this case).

The client could get a patent on his idea and then sue the programmer for resale profits he is making off it. I don't know if a patent is even needed. Maybe someone here knows for sure.

Actually if it was your concept and your script, it was a work for hire and you own the rights to it. If you were to patent the script, your name would be on the patent as it was your concept. :)

Let this be a lesson always have programmers sign NDA's etc.

Well did you sign a contract to give you exclusive rights yourself? It's like myself, when I do some custom work, I have a exclusive price (which is usually way, way more expensive) or a non-exclusive (I keep all the rights and can reuse or resale the product if I like). Of course when I do the resale it'll be cheaper than what I charged the person, but they should know that already.

That's my option I give to all of th people I work with. Exclusive or not, right from the get-go.

I was just gonna post that :thumbsup

It doesn't meet the requirments to qualify as a "work for hire" under the US copyright law definition of "work for hire". See earlier in thread.

god spacedog is a tool

I've talked to a few guys about building that exact same script. So it's not a overly unique idea. Main reason I never did it, is because of the same issue you are going through now.

I figured as soon as I paid to have it written they would turn around and release it themselves and I'd be SOL. My deal is I wanted the resale rights for the script I had written, so 9 times out of 10 if you go to a coder asking for that.. They will just take the idea and do it for themselves.

Back when I first started in this biz I talked to a programer about a idea I had. He tells me it would cost too much and he wasn't interested. About a year later this same guy is teamed up with another guy and they released a service that was loosely based on the idea I talked to him about.

Later this service was sold to another company for big money. So I learned my lesson about talking to people in this industry about ideas unless I know them well or trust them.

IMO your best bet is to always look outside the industry for any of this sort of programing, or best yet look locally. This will cut down the chances of them being able to steal your idea and market it, as they won't have a very good idea on who to market it to.

I would sue the living shit out of the guy, obviously if he's doing programming work for hire he obviously doesn't have much of a leg to stand on financially.

When he has to go hire a lawyer for $300+ an hour things will become very real all of a sudden.

Don't let this guy get away with this or he will be doing it to one of us next.

My 2 cents

DH

i am surprised how many people have gotten this so wrong

spacedog drinkingHARDEST you need to get new lawyers because they really don't know what they are talking about

And I am surprised how many people think this hinges on how you define work for hire. There was a unique idea behind this script, and it wasn't the programmer who conceived it. So this goes far beyond work for hire arguments.

Actually, not. A work for hire agreement would have resolved this.

Absent a work for hire agreement, the programmer owns the code and can do whatever he wants with it.

Does he have a website, maybe the work for hire is incorporated in something published on the site?

At any rate, you should disclose who this programmer is so that others do not fall victim to his shady business practices.

The issue here is not patent, it is copyright.

Yes, he could file for a patent on the idea, and maybe get issued a patent, and then 5 years from now and $100,000 later sue the programmer and spend another $100,000 to get a worthless judgment.

The problem here is that under the law, the programmer owns the copyright. A work for hire agreement would have resolved this. The relationship here is one of independent contractor, not employee, so there is no ownership of the rights by the guy who hired the programmer.

And will everyone stop saying NDA. NDA's have nothing to do with this.

It doesn't matter. Absent a work for hire agreement, or any other written contract, the programmer owns the code, period.

wtf !!!!

talk to a lawyer. You own the software. Don't listen to these clowns.

Sorry Dig..you are wrong.

http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/con...3874347-1.html

That's not really true. Reason non competes\disclosures tend to not hold up is because so many people write them poorly, and try to make the scope WAY to broad. If you keep it very specific and write it correctly it will be enforceable.

The Copyright laws clearly say otherwise. You can read them yourself, it's pretty straight forward.

Personally, if it were me, I would package that bitch up and spread it around EVERYWHERE FOR FREE

everywhere you can find throw it out there, torrent sites, usenet, forums, etc....send it to china and back

My god you people are confused.

NDA's often do hold up in court.

Non-compete's usually don't, at least not as they are written.

HOWEVER, this situation has absolutely nothing to do with NDA's or Non-compete's.

This issue is about copyright. The issue would be addressed in a WORK FOR HIRE AGREEMENT, not a NDA or Non-compete.

Ugggggg.

Nice to know you felt the need to restate what I just said.

I'm sorry at what point did I you get the impression that was talking about this guy's problem? I was responding to one comment specifically regarding non-competes\disclosures.

Can you just not read, or did you actually have a point? Speaking of confused. :1orglaugh

Guess we know what bus you rode to school.

Don't mean to put it so harshly but... assumptions are the mother of all fuckups. Yes, you did pay him for his time to develop this but in the end, he did develop it. It is his work. Any freelancer you hire as a contractor, there should have been a contract by both of you stating the terms of the work.

Companies that hire freelancers like this (or even temporary part-timers) have contracts primarily for categorizing the product of the contractor's work as "work made for hire". This is to prevent the contractor from taking the work he produced while he was hired. Without this, the contractor has his or her right to get up, take everything he produced during the time and leave with it without a trace of their work.

Search google for "work made for hire". There are plenty of info about it.

if he can prove it is an unique idea then he would have get a patent, and then sue. That would cost him 100k+ or more.

With what he has now, he is SOL.