Why do people think "adult" industry is an excuse to be immoral?

[gothweb]

Until this summer, I did not associate a lot with other people in the industry. I have a few friends who run sites not unlike my own, and I am friendly with the models I work with. I had not talked a lot with otherr webmasters, content providers, hosts, and so forth.

Then I came to GFY. It has been a real education. I have met a lot of cool people, and learned a lot that is helping me run my business. I have had some fun, I have made some money. So, for the most part, it's a good experience.

There are a few down sides, though. I thought I'd talk about one of them here... Why is it that people don't think anyone in the adult industry is, or should be expected to be, a moral human being?

Some examples...

1. Someone complained about the obvious fact that [Labret] is a bigoted fuckwit who thinks he is funny because he makes racist and otherwise ignorant comments. One response was "What do you expect? This is an adult webmaster board!" As if people in the adult industry aren't moral people, and shouldn't be expected to be.

2. That whole shaving fiasco... The very few people who defended shaving, including the guy who started the whole conversation, seemed to think that it was okay, because what we all do is bad anyhow.

What gets me is this... people think that since we are in the adult industry, we don't have to have morals. I guess the idea is that we're already doing something wrong, so nothing else we do has to be right. First of all, not all of us do immoral things, and for another... two wrongs doesn't make a right.

So, what do people think of these views:

A.) Adult webmasters are not moral people.
B.) Adult webmasters should not be expected to be moral people.
C.) If you're an adult webmaster, it's too late to be a good person.
D.) If you do one immoral thing, you don't need to have morals anymore.

[Gary]

Morality is what you decide you want it to be.

Alot of people think being an adult webmaster is immoral, therefore, you are immoral and a hypocrite.

[DjSap]

diffrent people have diffrent opinions on what is "moraly" right and wrong so you can't really expects us to answer your questions, some people find it immoral to work in porn other people find it immoral to be a lawyer...

[Fletch XXX]

Don't know how you guys do porn there, but here in Southern California its damn near mafia.

We have model clients who seriously fuck people up for not paying or for not using certain models here.

Youd be surprised.

People who get into "internet porn" and think they know the "adult industry" need to realize it all starts somewhere real first. And thats the dirty business of fueling whores for pics, filming sluts sdrinking cum, and anal gang bangs, yeah its all good morals here....

I saw a chick get pissed on for 200 bucks and beg for more once on a set... yeah she had morals.

Don't get all sensitive on me GothWeb... you should see through this bullshit by now... maybe not.

A question of ones personal opinion does not make Labret immoral.

[mrthumbs]

Gothweb, you're such a pussy..

[ControlThy]

Gothweb,

Be as moral as you want to be, but don't expect others to do the same.

[gothweb]

I guess here's the thing...

First, I don't think it is immoral to work in porn. Sure, certain things done within the industry are immoral, but if you don't do them, and encourage them, then you're in the clear.

However, let's assume it isn't moral. Let's assume we're all in the shithouse because we work on porn, at all. Does that mean we can use it as an excuse? "Who cares if I'm a racist, I work in porn." I don't get that attitude.

[gothweb]

Originally posted by ControlThy
Gothweb,

Be as moral as you want to be, but don't expect others to do the same.

Part of thinking something is right, is thinking others should do it as well. Isn't that what morality is all about? Applying standards...

[ControlThy]

Oh and Gothweb, you might be in the wrong business ;-)

No offence, just judging from your posts you are rather sensitive about alot of issues.

[Gary]

Originally posted by gothweb
I guess here's the thing...

First, I don't think it is immoral to work in porn. Sure, certain things done within the industry are immoral, but if you don't do them, and encourage them, then you're in the clear.

However, let's assume it isn't moral. Let's assume we're all in the shithouse because we work on porn, at all. Does that mean we can use it as an excuse? "Who cares if I'm a racist, I work in porn." I don't get that attitude.

Uh dude, theres racists in every industry. Once again, your morality don't mean shit. Don't judge other people by your moralitym, whatever that may be.

[gothweb]

Originally posted by Gary


Uh dude, theres racists in every industry. Once again, your morality don't mean shit. Don't judge other people by your moralitym, whatever that may be.

I agree with you-- there are racists in every industry. And, as far as I know, in other industries, people don't just write it off by saying "he works in such-and-such so it's okay". Why shouldn't adult webmasters be held to the same moral standards, whatever they are, as everyone else.

What do you mean my morality doesn't mean shit? I understand that we each have our own take on what is moral. Mine doesn't really matter more than anyone else's, except to me. My morality is the measure by which I judge myself, and others. How else could I judge them?

When I see someone do something wrong by my morals, isn't it normal for me to react to that? Does anyone do any different?

[JimmyReject]

Bad guys in all business where big money is to be made

[tree]

holy christ your a pussy

does you mommy hold your hand while you post on gfy?

were all adults here grow the fuck up theres corruption from the adult industry down to public school systems.....fuck cops get caught with cp on their computers like every 3 months. the world is fucked. stop crying

[gothweb]

Originally posted by tree
holy christ your a pussy

does you mommy hold your hand while you post on gfy?

were all adults here grow the fuck up theres corruption from the adult industry down to public school systems.....fuck cops get caught with cp on their computers like every 3 months. the world is fucked. stop crying

I don't think you have any idea what I am saying.

Let me be more clear-- Here is my opinion: The morality of an action is determined by the action. The context of the adult industry does not excuse certain actions. I think it is stupid that some people say "It's the adult industry" when people complain about something.

"It wasn't wrong"
"It was wrong, but I don't care"
etc. are all valid answers... but is "This is the adult industry, get over it" really an answer? I think that kind of answer leads to people doing more nasty, underhanded, immoral stuff.

Am I crying about it? No.
Am I complaining? Yes.

Do I think that the whole industry is corrupt? No.
Do I think that some people in it are nasty? Yes.

What's the problem. Are the opinions I am expressing totally weird?

[pr0]

Dude every business, everything on earth is fucked up. You just havn't seen it anywhere else yet.

[gothweb]

Originally posted by pr0
Dude every business, everything on earth is fucked up. You just havn't seen it anywhere else yet.

Did I say I think the adult industry is totally different from anything else? I must have missed that part. I am not complaining about the *morality* of the industry, I am complaining about the fact that some people use the industry itself as an excuse.

[tree]

for having a girl drinking blood in your sig your a real pussy

here ya go gothweb:



that should help you out..

[Darren]

the only people who are "pussies" are the people who agree with GothWeb but will not post in this thread because of there fear of upsetting one of the big boys.

[gothweb]

She's drinking wine. There's this crazy thing called a metaphor, look into it.

As for the cheap shots... Clever images and calling me a pussy doesn't prove me wrong. Maybe I *am* wrong, and my opinion on this is bullshit. However, I get the impression that you still don't know what my opinion *is*...

[Darren]

but gothweb what adult webmaster do u know that acts immorally and uses being an adult webmaster as an excuse? back up ur point.

[mrthumbs]

Originally posted by gothweb

Did I say I think the adult industry is totally different from anything else? I must have missed that part. I am not complaining about the *morality* of the industry, I am complaining about the fact that some people use the industry itself as an excuse.

Industry... industry?! What are you talking about?

You are just a geek with a website and a computer and this is a message board where you happen to post every now and then.

Dont use the things you see in here to judge about 'industry
standards' and 'the people in the industry'.
Although it comes to me as no surprise from a shallow
pussy like you.

There is a difference between how people are in
real life/business life and the statements they make on
this board.

People fuck around here.. that's where this place is for.
Just SAY things without thinking about it too much
and if you get slammed for it: who cares.


I think you are taking things a bit too serious and if this shit
REALLY upsets you: you really should consider
doing something else. Really.

[tree]

nor do i care

i just think you need to grow some balls my friend. maybe you should mind your own business instead of worrying about how labret feels. so what poeple use adult business as an excuse to be corrupt....how can you not be corrupted and immoral working in this biz? thats what its all about

if you can't stand the heat........

[gothweb]

Originally posted by tree
nor do i care

i just think you need to grow some balls my friend. maybe you should mind your own business instead of worrying about how labret feels. so what poeple use adult business as an excuse to be corrupt....how can you not be corrupted and immoral working in this biz? thats what its all about

if you can't stand the heat........

This isn't about Labret, actually. I mentioned his name because of *someone else's* reaction in a post about him. They basically told the guy complaining about Labret "who cares? this is an adult webmaster board"

[gothweb]

Originally posted by Darren
but gothweb what adult webmaster do u know that acts immorally and uses being an adult webmaster as an excuse? back up ur point.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear on this part. I am not talking about people saying, "What I did wasn't wrong, I'm an adult webmaster"... I am talking about a standard applied more generally. Like "who cared if he did X, he's an adult webmaster".... Applied to other people, based on a generalization.

[<IMX>]

GothWeb...

I think that you are perhaps a bit sensitive for GFY, maybe for most businesses and organizations for that matter.

The fact is GFY is a microcasim of the business world in general, with the exception that GFY strips away the much of the pretense and social posturing. You have the opportunity to see dirty industry secrets actually revealed and discussed in a pragmatic fashion. In addition, you can actually discuss them with many of the larger online industry players.

The discussion of these industry secrets are both refreshing and enlightening and should be taken as an opportunity to learn how the largest people operate.

Business ethics are often a contradiction in terms.

If you believe the violation of any moral/ethical boundaries solely b/c their occupation is of an adult nature, you are sorely mistaken. Personal ethical boundaries often clash with acceptable industry guidelines--lawyers, doctors and even priests deal with these things on a fucking daily basis. Is the adult industry so special and so pure that no ethical conflicts should exist? Perhaps that is the ironic point that many were trying to make.

The fact is you may be comparing your ethical framework to an industry that simply doesn?t hold your system as boundaries. Sorry to break it to you, but your situation is not unique.

Most industries don?t give a fuck about you or anyone?s personal ethical boundaries, they prey upon those they perceive as weak and use their bones as toothpicks. They only care about things that will maximize their profits in the long-run. In the long-run as the joke often goes, individuals will all be dead.

Dead and buried, along with their personal ethical systems.

Much like an analyst at Merril Lynch or any other big investment house who refused to tow the industry line and promote the chosen pig of the day. Or the Enron accountant who blew the whistle or the FBI woman who did the same--- tobacco companies, alcohol, firearms, military, defense contractors, food companies, grocery stories, churches ad nausea. Morality?

The minute a business or organization forms with more than two people you are bound to have comprimise.

I bore of this incessant whining about fairness, not to single you out in particular, perhaps I?ve reached my own breaking point.

I see why [Labret] has gone sane.

I simply reject all your ?views."

[tree]

nobody gives 2 shits what your point was anymore.
btw....your pussy is dripping

[pr0]

Someones trying to get himself a dvd player

[tree]

i think so too...im not gonna post anymore this thread is gay

[gothweb]

This is weird. I guess this is why you don't post a complex opinion when you don't feel like being precise about it. I honestly don't think anyone has replied to what I actually *said*... but I also don't think I said it very well.

Here's one...

"I think people should be moral."

Everyone with me so far?

[Jon]

gothweb..

learn to chill. if you dont like what people say on here, dont respond, and continue keeping to yourself.

i see this business as one thing, a big fat dollar sign. fuck if someone makes a racial comment about this or that, if you dont have the ability to walk away and be mature about it, then get out of the boards and the business.

i cant stand these lame fucks.

[gothweb]

IMX.... I have never seen such a long, well-worded post, that I still totally failed to understand. What "views" of mine do you reject? I think people are a little defensive here, and are taking me to be saying a hell of a lot more than I am.

[gothweb]

Originally posted by NiteChatDotTV
gothweb..

learn to chill. if you dont like what people say on here, dont respond, and continue keeping to yourself.

i see this business as one thing, a big fat dollar sign. fuck if someone makes a racial comment about this or that, if you dont have the ability to walk away and be mature about it, then get out of the boards and the business.

i cant stand these lame fucks.

I think you may have made the mistake of assumng this is a big deal to me. It hasn't scarred my psyche in any way, I don't suddenly feel lost or disillusioned, and I haven't made any generalized judgements on everyone here. Not a big deal.

Just something I wanted to think about, and look for some opinions from other people about.

As for the bit about this all being about money... Do you think the fact that you make money from adult stuff means you don't have to think about the moral implications of what you see around you? If so, that's exactly the sort of thing I object to.

But yeah, it's just an objection. An opinion. Not the end of the world, and just an idea held by one guy. I find it odd that when I express an opinion, people say "dude. chill out. people are just talking"... As if I am doing anything different. Like you all, I am some guy fucking around on a board.

[<IMX>]

IMX.... I have never seen such a long, well-worded post, that I still totally failed to understand. What "views" of mine do you reject? I think people are a little defensive here, and are taking me to be saying a hell of a lot more than I am.

So, what do people think of these views:
A.) Adult webmasters are not moral people.
B.) Adult webmasters should not be expected to be moral people.
C.) If you're an adult webmaster, it's too late to be a good person.
D.) If you do one immoral thing, you don't need to have morals anymore.

yawn.

[gothweb]

That list of views aren't mine, you know that right? Those are views I was looking for opinions on.

[Kat - Fast]

As generalisations...
a) AWM's are moral people - they just have different morals to most of the general public. If we didn't believe it was OK for 18yo girls to have a fist shoved up their ass we wouldn't promote sites that show it. Or would we if it converted well?
b) We aren't expexted to have morals by the general public because they see many images as pure filth and find it difficult to associate those images with a person with the same morals as themselves.
c)I am usually a good person - if a little anti-establishment
d)I have done lots of immoral things but still try to be a good person and not repeat past offenses (unless it was a good earner )

[tree]

gothweb loves the cock

[Beastiepoo]

Originally posted by gothweb
Am I crying about it? No.
Am I complaining? Yes.

Do I think that the whole industry is corrupt? No.
Do I think that some people in it are nasty? Yes.

What's the problem. Are the opinions I am expressing totally weird?

Not weird, but they seem a bit skewed. I've never heard anyone say 'Its wrong but OK 'cause he/she works in porn'.

There are racists, bigots, pricks in all industries. These issues have little to do with a persons 'morality'. Morality is a personal decision. You make your own morality. What society deems moral can range greatly as well and should not be used as a measurement of personal morality.

ONE of the reasons we seem to get more 'amoral' (as you call it) people in this business (and on GFY) is because there is no system of checks and balances here. In any other public industry where you work in an office (for example) you can sue someone for racism/sexism/whatever because it affects your personal rights to a happy and healthy workplace. Most of us work in our homes on our own and do not have to deal with these sort of people in our daily lives. If we DO deal with the bigots/racists it is because we choose to. You can put anyone on your IGNORE list and not click on any threads that are obviously (and most are obvious) going to inspire people to argument and possibly insults.

Police yourself. If you object to someone's 'morals' then don't associate with them. It isn't right to be a racist/bigot/whatever but it isn't to do with morality.

I'll probably be on your ignore list now.

[fiveyes]

IMNSHO, anyone who questions the morals/ethics of the industry they've chosen to work in either has personal issues they need to resolve or they recently made a very poor career move.

And, anyone that believes GFY is representative of the adult industry needs a clue.

But, then again, having a defender of truth, justice and warm cuddly feelings participating here is cool. I nominate gothweb to the esteemed position of Crusader for Morality, Keeper of Proper Ethics and Defender of the High Horse.

[Catalinas]

I don't think it's whether people agree with you or not.. you're getting reactions to the way you ask/broach the subject. It appears that you are trying too hard to prove you are moral and wouldn't lie/cheat/steal, etc.

Would we all prefer there was no shaving? Of course, not gonna happen. Don't like it, don't use sponsors, but don't try to say someone else is wrong for promoting sponsors who may shave. It's how alot of people make their living.

And truly, one person saying 'what do you expect, he's an adult webmaster' does not make for a general view on things. You can't take an isolated incident and apply it to all of us and expect us to answer to you why we feel that way when in fact we don't.

[gothweb]

Originally posted by Catalinas
I don't think it's whether people agree with you or not.. you're getting reactions to the way you ask/broach the subject. It appears that you are trying too hard to prove you are moral and wouldn't lie/cheat/steal, etc.

Would we all prefer there was no shaving? Of course, not gonna happen. Don't like it, don't use sponsors, but don't try to say someone else is wrong for promoting sponsors who may shave. It's how alot of people make their living.

And truly, one person saying 'what do you expect, he's an adult webmaster' does not make for a general view on things. You can't take an isolated incident and apply it to all of us and expect us to answer to you why we feel that way when in fact we don't.

I agree with you pretty much across the board here. I would clarify one thing, though... I am not trying to show everyone that I am a moral guy. Rather, I am trying to re-enforce my belief that there are a lot of good people in this industry. When I come across a scuzzbag, I ask people what they thing, because when I hear that others also think he is a scuzzbag, it reaffirms my faith in people.

Other than that, I agree with you. I made the mistake of not being clear that for the most part, I am talking about an annoying minority of people who use the strange "its adult so its okay" logic. The way you put it helped clear that up for me.

[Pathfinder]

I think you may be mixing apples and oranges. There is morality and there is ethics and it seems to me you are combining the two.

None the less it is my personal opinion, that there are more immoral people and unethical people in the porn business than what would be considered the norm for main stream business.

My

[gothweb]

A few more replies, since I was offline for a while and missed a few good points...

Beastiepoo:

The trend I am talking about is a little slippery, perhaps because I am associating a few things. When people say something along the lines of "that's not moral" on this board, and indeed when I mention it privately on ICQ with *some* industry people, a common reply is "oh well, it's the adult industry". I guess it can be meant in a lot of ways, but all of them worry me.

As for the place of morality... I guess what I would say is that morals are personal for each person, but only in the details. The idea of morality is to get at some sort of more universal concept of what is right. Yes, each person's morality is different, but to have a moral system is to hope it is the right one. I will stand up and say that being a racist is a matter of (bad) morality. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

As for associating with people whose morals I don't like... Yes, that is a start. I certainly won't do business with someone who strikes me as unethical and scummy. Even if I could make more money doing it. However, I do not think avoidance is the only way. One important element of morality is that we express a dislike for that which we consider immoral. That leads to the possibility of shame, or other emotions, that can undermine the principles of the immoral person, or reenforce the principles of moral people who are listening. As such, I feel it is acceptable to say out loud when something bothers me.

And, no, you're not on my ignore list. Your reply to all of this was calm, well-reasoned, and genuine. You did not once attempt to prove me wrong by calling me a pussy. You're all right in my book, whether or not we agree... And I suspect we're not so far off.


FiveEyes:

I am not questioning the morals of the industry. An industry is a collection of people... and I do not think all, or even most, of the people in the industry are guilty of the pet peeve I happened to bring up today, or immorality in general.

I believe that erotica/porn/adult material can be made, and presented, in ethical ways, and in unethical ways. I do my best to stay on the side wearing the white hats, and I don't lose a lot of sleep with uncertainty about the morality of my own business.

Ian X,
Defender of Truth, Justice and Warm Cuddly Feelings
Crusader for Morality,
Keeper of Proper Ethics
and Defender of the High Horse

;)

[gothweb]

Morality = being moral
Ethics = being ethical
Ethical = doing the right thing
Moral = doing the right thing

What's the difference? I'm getting a PhD in Philosophy, and the only one I can think of is connotational... People associate "morality" with the phrase "personal morality" meaning an individual's code of ethics, while they associate "ethics" with phrases like "business ethics" meaning an code of rules accepted by a community. However, both terms refer to the same thing, Doing What is Right.

If you disagree with my choice of terms, feel free to substitute "Morality" with "Good Action" or "Ethics" in my posts.

[Speedy26]

its just this board is full of assholes.

[gothweb]

Originally posted by Speedy26
its just this board is full of assholes.

That's something I had considered... Or, more accurately, this board is full of vocal assholes. People who don't have a strong opinion aren't as likely to speak up...

[Rocky]

i'm not immoral

but after having sex with that vampire goat i've become immortal

[gothweb]

Originally posted by Rocky
i'm not immoral

but after having sex with that vampire goat i've become immortal

Can I get pictures? I want to do some cross-promotion with Gary, and that would be perfect.

[Pathfinder]

Originally posted by gothweb
Morality = being moral
Ethics = being ethical
Ethical = doing the right thing
Moral = doing the right thing

What's the difference? I'm getting a PhD in Philosophy, and the only one I can think of is connotational... People associate "morality" with the phrase "personal morality" meaning an individual's code of ethics, while they associate "ethics" with phrases like "business ethics" meaning an code of rules accepted by a community. However, both terms refer to the same thing, Doing What is Right.

If you disagree with my choice of terms, feel free to substitute "Morality" with "Good Action" or "Ethics" in my posts.

While ethics and morality have similar dictionary meanings; in real life the two words are usually applied to two different concepts.

Many people would not say that it is unethical to committ adultery, but would say that it is immoral.

Many people would say that "shaving" is unethical, but would not say that it is immoral.

Which is basically what you stated.

[sternyduke]

Originally posted by gothweb
I guess here's the thing...

First, I don't think it is immoral to work in porn. Sure, certain things done within the industry are immoral, but if you don't do them, and encourage them, then you're in the clear.

However, let's assume it isn't moral. Let's assume we're all in the shithouse because we work on porn, at all. Does that mean we can use it as an excuse? "Who cares if I'm a racist, I work in porn." I don't get that attitude.

why even think about it though. a person's attitude on a public board in no way effects the way YOU live your life. it seems you are way sensitive and think about stuff way to much. you are a man right?

[gothweb]

Originally posted by Pathfinder


While ethics and morality have similar dictionary meanings; in real life the two words are usually applied to two different concepts.

Many people would not say that it is unethical to committ adultery, but would say that it is immoral.

Many people would say that "shaving" is unethical, but would not say that it is immoral.

Which is basically what you stated.

I disagree. I would say the words have the same meaning. Your examples seem to be a case of the different possible connotations I mentioned, but not a difference in meaning or application between the two words.

I *would* say it is unethical to commit adultery, and immoral to shave.


SternyDuke: Then why did you reply?