FATPad

C'mon, Labret....tell us all where the Jews screwed up adn where they have been the aggressors here. Tell us all what they did to deserve having their women and children killed.

After all, I told you why I side with the Jews.

And try do it without sounding like the complete destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews everywhere isn't you real goal.

YOu can't.

drumsicle

What is this obsession with Zionism? Why do you keep crying over spilled milk? Zionism is old news. It already happened in the 30s and 40s. The Zionists and their position have little to do with what's going on NOW.

The majority of Israelis are secular Jews and couldn't give a fuck less about about Zionism. They were born there which they had no control over. They have lived all of their lives there. And it is quite obvious that they aren't gonna pack up and leave because someone else says that they have a claim to the land.

In the final analysis, your argument seems to be that Zionism is wrong. You may be right, but guess what, you're about sixty years too late.

[Labret]

So this is what it has boiled down to for you? The standard "Labret is an anti-semite". And I want to see the dealth of Jews "everywhere"? Not just in Israel, but obviously someone who disagrees with Israel this much must want all the little Jewish children of the world pushed into ovens.

Congrats, you hit your low point.

Really. You cant differentiate between Zionism and Judaism?

Just like the dipshits who come on here crying about Christianity being all fucked up and saying they should all be round up and shot. You cant equate Zionism with Judaism because its apples and oranges Rose. You see... I dont like catholics and jehovas witnesses. But I dont entirely dislike the eastern orthodox and lutheran churches. See how that works? I can dislike certain sects without hating the entire community Amazing eh?

FATPad

Swell.

So answer the questions I asked.

[Labret]

idiot.

So you are claiming the Hasidic and orthodox communities in Israel have no pull? Absolute and utter bullshit.

Anyone who is sitting in Israel right now and believes that the nation of Israel is the Jews birthright by God is a Zionist. And you are telling me there are no more of those people in Israel?

No more orthodoxy?

drumsicle

Israelis that you want to see dead aren't Zionists. A small percentage of them are. The masses who went there from Europe, went not out religious reason, but to flee what was happening to them in Europe. Then there are the 600,000 Jews expelled from Arab lands when Israel, declared statehood. Then there were the ones who were always there. The people that you want to see killed are these people or their descendants. These are fucking people jackass, not some fucking Zionist ideal. A 13 year old girl taking the bus to school is not likely a Zionist. Moron.

drumsicle

Not claiming that at all. Try to stay with me here. I'm saying they are in the minority.

I reiterate, they are people. They are not sitting there thinking that it is there birthright. They are thinking it is home. Because that's where they were born and raised.

jammyjenkins

holy fucking shit!!!! What a comment!!!

this woman really doesn't have two brain-cells to rub together does she???


stupid and uninformed woman + keyboard + internet access = everyone else reading complete shit on their screens


you spend one month in europe and already have a complete grasp of the people and issues at hand?

wow - what a fast learner

I better take my month-long 50-state tour of the US so that I can make inciteful comments about american social problems. that's all it takes to learn about 250 million people isn't it?

and by the way ... learn to use QUOTE propertly or stop fucking posting!!!

for fuck sake

if you can't handle QUOTE ... how do you manage FTP? or is your site hosted on Geocities?

[Labret]

Then why is that every candidate for PM kills for the Shas party vote?

Because they know they NEED that vote.

And who is the Shas party?

The orthodox party.

Really, you fool nobody but yourself.

drumsicle

Off course they need that vote dumbass. It's like needing the Black, Latino, and Jewish vote here. It's minorities who swing elections.

[Labret]

Uhm yeah.

The second largest party in Israel is not a minority. Do I need to remind you how many parties are in Israel? Around 12 main recognized ones. And countless TRUE minority parties.

Do you just pull things from your ass?

jammyjenkins

well, if you think about it though it was a pretty stupid place to choose to put a country

the jews had some much more scenic choices ... but oh no, they had to choose the bit of land where they're surrounded by over 200 million arabs

for fuck sake ...

it's like me flying over to nigeria because those emails said I had all that money coming my way ... even though I've heard lots of bad stoies about it ... and then being surprised when I get seven shades of crap beaten out of me and my bank accounts emptied by a gang of black guys

somewhat loose analogy, but you get my point

if the jews chose idealogy for a place to live, rather than common sense, they really shouldn't be surprised at what's happening to them

fucking stupid decision if you ask me. it really did invite a world of trouble doncha think? talk about being unfair to future generations...

shunga

War isn't the answer. War does not lead to the extermination of one side or the other, or the extermination of those views. Instead war inevitably leads back to the negotiating table, in one form or another. And the more acts of violence that are perpetrated, the longer and more difficult that road becomes.

The sad fact is that recent events have pushed both sides much further back down that road than they had come. You can understand why the Israeli's moved into the West Bank, but it was naive to think it would solve the problem. The "infrastructure of terrorism" is in the mind, not in bricks and mortar.

Fundamentally, both sides wish to live in peace, which is the natural state. To caricature one side or the other as "evil" leads to an underestimation of them, and to solve a problem you have to have an understanding of your opponents position, and it's difficult to do that when you're filled with hate and resentment.

The Palestinian bomb in an Israeli town, the Israeli soldier enforcing a curfew in a Palestinian village, each puts peace a little further away. What's required is the courage of restraint, and the courage to deal with hotheads who can't see past that hate and resentment. And that is something both must do.

That's not an easy fix, it's not a solution for the impatient, but it's the only real solution, the only thing that will really lead to peace, and not more conflict. And every time a bomb goes off, every time a soldier steps into a Palestinian village, that process is shaken.

[Labret]

Location: Loveland

You dont say. Lets hold hands.

jammyjenkins

so how does the dropping of a one-ton bomb into a block of civilian flats work for you?

we're not the ones that need saving

think of the israeli's ... oh won't someone pleeeaaase think of the israeli's!!!

I'm betting at least a few people will miss the sarcasm there

dumbasses

Anyone who says 'anti-semitism' obviously doesn't have the intelligence to hold a proper argument

it really is the cowards defence

"I don't like your views ... you're an anti-semite"

"why are you criticising israel dropping a one-ton bomb into a block of flats ... you're an anti-semite"

and so on

weak

very weak

if you don't like this board ... fuck off

it's very simple

you thought a board with the name GoFuckYourself was going to have simply business related discussions?

duh

it's a place to hang out, and debate too

if you can't handle the heat ... fuck right off

see above

ya big pussy

can't handle a little debate

wah wah wah

jammyjenkins

sorry labrat ... I usually agree with you ... but come on, that's weak

it ain't just the left who like to keep other opinions out

as an example, very left-wing guardian.co.uk ... their talk boards are crazy ... pretty much anything goes

whereas freerepublic.com will ban you in a heart beat if you even slightly disagree with their insanely conservative leanings

jammyjenkins

yeah ... fuckers

otherwise us british could still be living it large from all the taxes you were paying us

sweet...

CDSmith

Okay, THIS post I absolutely love....

... and the next logical step in the argument would bring us back to the whole "previous ownership" and "past rights to this land", no? First for the jews, and then of course for the Arabs.

I don't know how anyone can say that what happened 3000 years ago doesn't apply when a big part of today's hatred on both sides stems from past claims to the region.

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[Labret]

ok time to sleep.

night bitches.

CDSmith

G'night asswipe. oh, and your dog had turd breath :D

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shunga

You put people down for not arguing properly against you, then you post this? I'm a realist. You fight when you can win. You make peace when you can't. If you believe both peoples want to fight a war of mutual extermination, you're missing the point yourself.

drumsicle

The second largest party? No, I think it is you who pulls things from your ass.

CDSmith

Seriously though, did you have your head in the clouds with your earlier post, or was it up your ass? I don't really see you as being a realist at all. If you were you would know that this situation has the real potential to test the big bang theory, the whole "irresistable force hits immoveable object."

The big bang in this case being all-out war. And neither side would be trying for mutual destruction. Of course their respective goals would be the same... total annihilation of the other side.

If you're going to be a realist, don't regurge what thousands of diplomats have been saying for decades man, it hasn't worked for them at it isn't going to work for you.

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falafel

I I can say that I don't need the bible to know that Israel is my country.
As I stated before, I don't regard the bible as a history book, so as far as I'm concerned you can throw that book to the garbage can with all other religious books in the world.

This is my country because of those 2 reasons combined:
1. In 1948 the UN decided it's mine.
2. I was born here.

That's it.
I don't need the bible & I don't use the bible to justify my actions.
I look at it from a secular point of view.

As far as I'm concerned the last round started in 48 when the UN decided to "regulate" life here in the region.
The UN came up with a plan: we said yes, the Arabs said no and attacked us.
From that point, I don't give a fuck about anything.
The world came to us with a plan that we accepted and the Arabs started the violence that continues for fifty something years.
All we do is defending ourselves and combating terror and I don't have a reason to apologize for that.

52 years after 1948, the Palestinians were given another chance to get their own state.
Instead of reaching a historic compromise, they started the terror war.
Our former foreign minister, Abba Even, said once: "The Palestinians never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

jammyjenkins

BumpinBetty

Pathfinder

I understand your position.

It is true that the Palestinians were offered a state and maybe they should have taken the offer, but there were reasons why they didn't.

The right of return was denied, Israel would have controlled the bulk of the water, and the Palestinians would have been on reservations (much like the Indians in this country), with Israel controlling the right to cross from one part of Palestine to another. In addition, if I recall correctly Jerusalem was in contention.

As I stated maybe they should have taken the offer, as it may have been the best offer they will get, but none the less they had their reasons for not accepting the offer.

falafel

Hi Pathfinder,

Let me respond to your points one by one.
You're right, the right of return TO ISRAEL was denied but the right of return to future Palestine was agreed.
The whole purpose of the peace deal is to separate between the 2 peoples because obviously they can't live together.
That's the reasons for the creation of Palestine, so all Palestinians will have their own country to live in.
I will never support the right of return to Israel and neither any Israeli leader.
Actually, even the extreme left in Israel firmly objects to that and the Palestinians are realizing that now and starting to talk about a creative solution to the problem that will bypass the problem.

As for the control over the water resources, that's not what blew the deal off.
Even the Palestinian admit that.
Believe me, this is the most easy problem to solve unlike the core issues.

Regarding what you said about the Palestinians living in reservations - that's completely not true.
Israel offered 97% of the west bank and 100% of the Gaza strip.
That means that all the settlement in Gaza & most of the settlement in the west bank would have been dismantled.
The Palestinians were not supposed to live in reservations but in a normal country.

One problem is that the Palestinians are divided to 2 territories: the west bank and the Gaza strip - separated by Israeli land.
You said that Israel was suppose to hold the border checkpoints between its borders and the ones of the Palestinians - but that's what happens in any country.
You can't allow free and unauthorized movement between 2 countries.
Doesn't the US have the ability to screen people in its border checkpoints with Mexico and Canada ?
Of course it does, and that's how it goes with any country that has borders.
Israel offered to establish a "safe passage" mechanism (perhaps by a huge bridge) that will enable the movement of Palestinians between the the west bank and Gaza.

Regarding Jerusalem, Barak offered to split the city to two: the Jewish and the Armenian quarters will go to Israel & the Muslim and the Christian quarters will go to Palestine.
Personally, I think that the Jerusalem arrangement won't work.
In my opinion, it will be better if the whole city will be given to international hands (the UN for example).

At the bottom line, the Palestinians didn't agree to the best offer ever given to them by any Israeli leader.
I suspect that this offer will not repeat itself in the near future since the Israelis completely lost their trust in Arafat after he answered the offer with the Intifada.
I think it was a fatal mistake of him.
He dragged his people to the abyss and repeated the 48 mistake of not reaching a historical compromise.

In a personal note I can say that until 2000 I was in your opinion more or less.
In 1990 I joined the army (like any 18 years old Israeli) and right after basic training I was posted for a short service in the Gaza strip.
It was the first Intifada back then, which was a piece of cake compared to the current one.
As a young soldier, I was subjected to the suffering of the Palestinian population.
I also lost 2 close friends from my platoon in a shift that was supposed to be mine in the first place (they asked me to change shifts with them and I agreed).

I was under the impression that Israel is going the wrong way.
I felt that our presence there was a mistake and I thought that if we'll offer the olive branch to the Palestinians, everybody will live in peace and harmony.
When I left the army, I joined the "peace camp" and voted for the late PM Rabin who signed the Oslo accord.
I was happy with it until the suicide bombings started in 1994.

Then in 1996, I voted for Shimon Peres, another dovish candidate who replaced the late Mr. Rabin.
Peres lost the elections because of the suicide bombings who killed many Israelis.
The right wing lead by Netanyahu won the elections and things started to look pretty bad (but not as bad as today).

In 99 I was so fed up with the situation and I didn't want to delay things any further so I voted for Barak (who promised a far reaching peace deal) and for the pro peace extreme left party Meretz.
Well, you know the rest.
Barak did his part, was answered with a big no and a terror campaign.
That was the turning point for me.
As long as Israel offered nothing to the Palestinians, I held a dovish point of view, but after Barak kept his word & offered everything that Israel could offer (and even some more, to my opinion) and was rejected by Arafat who started the war - I just know that the whole blame lies on Arafat's shoulders.

It looks like we'll have to wait to a reasonable Palestinian leadership and then we may regain the lost hope.

Lane

i wonder how many people actually read the whole thread

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[Labret]

Never forget the Liberty

http://www.ussliberty.org/

Pathfinder

You are stating that Palestinians would have been isolated to only two areas, Gaza and West Bank. It is my recollection that they were/are divided into 13 areas under the occupation and if they would have accepted the offer of a State they would still have been divided into more than two areas.

I will assume that you are correct for the sake of argument, but the right of Palestinians to travel freely within the geographically divided State of Palestine was in conflict and whatever assurances were provided by Israel, was found to be unacceptable by the Palestinians.

Your comparison of controlling borders is not really applicabable if you are a citizen of a geographically divided country.

The fact is that the Palestinians found different aspects of the offer of a State to be unacceptable, and did not think that it was the great deal that others thought that it was.

Perception is sometimes as important as fact.

dig420

Labret, the real problem you're going to run into is that we as americans hate the arab culture. I mean we HATE it and have no sympathy for anything that happens to any Arab country. If Israel took the gloves off and started whooping ass over there we wouldn't really be too bothered about it.

when you stop beheading people because they forgot to pray in the morning and raping women for wearing their burkas too short then you can win more sympathy for the cause. There's also that nasty habit of kidnapping and slavery that pisses off western people.

I have no problem with arabic PEOPLE and I have arabic friends who were born in this country, but if the arabic CULTURE were wiped off the face of the earth, I don't think there would be many tears shed.

[Labret]

You do realize that much of the world feels the same exact way about Americans.

So to take stock in what Americans think about the world is laughable at best.

An "american worldview" is an oxymoron.

Ever heard of "cultural relativism"?

dig420

Human rights aren't relativistic, they're absolute.

at least in every culture that's managed to drag itself out of the middle ages.

[Labret]

Define human rights.

What "rights" do you have as a human.

The only "rights" you have are the ones the people in power allow you to have. Period.

So yes. It is relative.

Joe Sixpack

You should take a look at your own country's record on civil rights first. You were still lynching ******s seventy years ago.

drumsicle

You have said on more than one occasion that you have a dog in this fight because the enemy of your enemy is your friend. Obviously then, what you have to gain is the elimination of your enemy. Although, you have not clearly defined who the enemy is.

[Labret]

God I hate to agree with you.

[Labret]

You twist what I say.

People ask me why I support someone who obviously hates me as an American. And as I have said... the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I dont like hippies, teenagers, women, Canadians, the French, liberals, lefties, communists, abstract artists, poets, spoken word fags, vegans, straight edge, coffee fags, old people, Krishnas, people who listen to Oasis... etc etc etc

Anyone who dislikes them is for all intents and purposes is ok by me.

Much in the same way the White Seperatists meet with the Nation of Islam and other Black Muslim groups. Because they each are trying to achieve the same goal and will look past the obvious glaring differences of opinion if it benefits them.

Something the narrow minded cant seem to grasp.

Just like how 20 years ago Osama was our friend so long as he fought a common enemy.



People.

Pathfinder

Ah...a sociopathic personality. I have the same leaning, brought on by the madness of war, which I engaged in five times, and find it useful as a defense to being emotionally overwhelmed by the madness that exists on this earth.

Civilized people, innocent people; I think not.

drumsicle

How is that twisting what you say?

All I am saying is that you support the Palestinian "militants" because they attack a people you don't like (the enemy in this case) Zionists.

Joe Sixpack

Don 't worry, I can't imagine it'll happen that often.

Quick comparison:

I don't like Yuppies, conformists, gun nuts, patriots, religious conservatives, libertarians, just-say-no-to-drugs fags and those who choose to suck the cock of "tha man" - i.e. police officers and those in the army.

A little bit of common ground on old people (yes, fuck off Pathfinder) and teenagers perhaps.

[Labret]

So whats your point?

If you start a group that goes out and blows up wiggers and hippies.... I will send you money as well. Doesnt mean I like your politics. I like your goals.

drumsicle

My point is simply that you have no objectivity on the subject.

Pathfinder

FUS's are not qualified to have an opinion about any subject.

Marv

Wow, this thread is fuckin' long. Here's my two cents:

What it all comes down to is this. Jews claimed the land belong to their ancestors, and some Palestinians claimed their ancestors dated back to the Canannites. It simply never ends(the killing), until the cycle of violence stop (grandfather to father to son..etc. pass on the violence and hate).

The UN fucked up when they divided lands among the Israelis and the Palestinians. Small patches of lands that were given to the Palestinians were embeded deep in Israelis territory. Over time, these lands were naturally swallowed by Israel. The current argument is that Israel return these lands as sanctioned by the UN a couple of decades ago. What makes it even worse, Egypt and other Arab nations decided to unite and attack Israel and were badly beaten. As a result Israel had claimed even more land by winning the war. Israel planned to use these land to negotiate a peace agreement, but it back fired, due to EXTREMIST ON BOTH SIDES unwilling to compromise.

Anyway, a peace settlement was finally agreed upon, where Egypt had agreed to sign a peace settlement for the return of the Sinia peninsula. King Anwar Sadat was asassinated by a

MUSLIM EXTREMIST(his own people)

for signing this peace treaty.

Anyway, during the Clinton administration, a peace settlement was signed between Israel led by Rabin and Jordan led by King Hussein. Meanwhile the Israelis and Palestinians continued to implement the Oslo Accords, gradually expanding Palestinian self-rule. This was the closest to peace as it gets. But here's the deal. For agreeing to this peace settlement, Israelis prime minister Rabin was assinated by a

RADICAL JEWISH EXTREMIST(his own people).

So the point here. Most ordinary citizens of both Israel and Palestine want a peace settlement of some sort, but the minority(the EXTREMISTs) on both sides will not compromise.

Political leaders on both sides are easily pressured by fundamentalist, and ordinary citizen(influenced by the media and social pressure) can not acomplish peace, and has to pay the price in blood. Any leader that can step up and compromise a peace treaty becomes a target and is easily terminated (aka Rabin and Sadat).

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Joe Sixpack

FUS? No, I don't have Feline Urological Syndrome!

[Labret]

I just spent 8 pages giving observable phenomena to backup my dislike of Israel.

Are you one of those people who use words they dont completely understand?

drumsicle

Could have fooled me. Even if you had, you conveniently ignore this part of the definition...<b>uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices</b>

If you simply disagreed with the Zionists' religious beliefs, yes you could be objective. However, you feel that they should be shot in the head for what they believe. Therefore you have crossed over into unobjective land. Am I going to fast for you?


Are you one of those people who makes shit up, like Shas is second largest Israeli political party, and then accuses others of pulling shit out of their ass? Yeah I thought so.

[Labret]

My personal prejudices and emotions are influenced by the god damn 8 pages of facts and figures I have been spitting out for six months.

You consider all the historical and theological material I present as not objective?

Pull your head out dumbass.


You are an idiot arent you?

Ok, no time to search really hard, but just to humor you

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/is.html



In 97 they were 3rd. And they have grown since then.

See all those little parties under them? Those are the minority parties.

What a fucking dumbass. You really thought you could stick me on that point?

[Labret]

*twiddles thumbs*