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-   -   5 programmers now have flaked on me (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=706464)

datatank 02-15-2007 12:04 PM
Has anyone used that site where you can watch your programer on webcam and see his screen every min he is supposed to be working on your project?

BitAudioVideo 02-15-2007 12:22 PM
me: "bid accurately.. i want it done on time..."

programmer: "i can do that job in 6 days for $500"

me: "if you deliver it on time ill give you $500, if you deliver it a day early ill give you $600, every day its late we can knock off $50... agreed?"

me: "hello?? you there?"

me: "knock knock, anyone home??"

Matiz 02-15-2007 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by datatank (Post 11922733)
Has anyone used that site where you can watch your programer on webcam and see his screen every min he is supposed to be working on your project?
Great idea, got a link?

tg1 02-15-2007 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borked (Post 11920478)

It's all about professionalism - if you get a coder who says 'yeah I'll do it for $X in Xweeks' after 10 minutes of ICQ, then you're heading into dangerous waters...

:2 cents:
After reading this entire post I was compelled to comment.
Many of you here make some valid points.

I do agree that it is ALL about professionalism.

I think many clients from the get go often times forget that a newly hired coder (much like an artist expected to finish a painting that has been started)....has to get into the trenches and understand the better bulk of what has been done and why it was done the way it has in a system/website.
Too many times I've heard from coders found in this predicament....that things are an utter mess....and quite frankly this occured because previous coders might have been in it for a quick buck.
Want a job well done? ...then i would say the key to this is communications and specifics from both sides....and setting 'real' expectations....

Posts such as these though I understand are created because someone is disgruntled....it's giving reputable programmers a bad wrap..and let's face it....once you get a good programmer on your side he's invaluable.

interracialtoons 02-15-2007 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BitAudioVideo (Post 11922801)
me: "bid accurately.. i want it done on time..."

programmer: "i can do that job in 6 days for $500"

me: "if you deliver it on time ill give you $500, if you deliver it a day early ill give you $600, every day its late we can knock off $50... agreed?"

me: "hello?? you there?"

me: "knock knock, anyone home??"
And you don't see what is stupid about that do you?

Programmers give "estimated" completion times, one simple typo in a piece of executed code can delay a programming job at any time.

The reason Windows is fucked up is because it was "completed" "on time". :1orglaugh


You think you have a point about programmers yet the real point is that you didn't get your job done because of what you asked for. Think about that.

The programmer woud be happy to do your job in one day and fuck off for 4 days so why would they want to deliver the project late?

Bottom line: if you don't like/understand the nature of programming jobs then read a book and do it yourself. You'll have a new outlook on life after you deal with it yourself.

rowan 02-15-2007 01:01 PM
I'll have to admit that a recent custom job I did took longer than expected. In the end I probably undercharged the client for the work I did, but it was balanced out by the fact that he was waiting for so long.

I've accepted that I am not cut out for custom coding, so I've moved on.

schneemann 02-15-2007 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by interracialtoons (Post 11922971)
The programmer woud be happy to do your job in one day and fuck off for 4 days so why would they want to deliver the project late?
No shit. The sooner I deliver, the sooner I can stick my hand out for that check. Time is money, and the more time I spend NOT getting shit done is more money I miss out on.

scouser 02-15-2007 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterchief (Post 11920143)
As a fellow independent programmer here's a few tips:

- Us programmers think we're much better than we really are, so when a programmer gives you a time frame double it and you'll have an semi accurate figure.
- While we may be the fucking baddest ass programmers to exist, we often lack basic business and social skills. So a week into the project we might decide that we gave a price to low or are not capable of completing the project so we'll just go poof, vanish and disappear! So be sure to always maintain communication and pay after work is completed or use an escrow service.
- We really don't care about your deadlines.
- A few of our family members may get sick and die - multiple times. Being a programmer is an EXTREMELY dangerous job for everyone involved so keep that in mind.
- We're big procrastinators, going back to number 1 we think we're king shit and the fucking best, so for a 8 week project we may think we can get by and bullshit the first 6 weeks and get everything done in the last 2, at which point family members begin getting sick and suddenly dying ;). So be sure to keep an constant eye on progress and demand daily/bidaily updates.
I know that some are like this, sometimes i've gotten designers to design me stuff and they are exactly what you've described. But I (as a php programmer/freelancer) never missed deadlines without good reason (which is in 99% of the time because the client wants a new feature and they understand this will add a couple of days to it). Never had a client who wasn't happy :). And never disapeared. I always give my personal MSN and email, so I can't really disapear (well, I could block you. But I don't).

When i get designers to do stuff I expect them to work to deadlines like I do, and get annoyed when they "have to go out", or the last excuse was "I got bored so went out" from this guy. He won't be getting any more work from me...:2 cents:

Ps - You forgot about after sales support - most just do a runner basically. Once you've got your product, if you find a bug its your problem, for most programmers (Not for me. Always fix a bug within 48 hours - often a lot less).

Aussie Rebel 02-15-2007 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterchief (Post 11920143)
As a fellow independent programmer here's a few tips:

- Us programmers think we're much better than we really are, so when a programmer gives you a time frame double it and you'll have an semi accurate figure.
- While we may be the fucking baddest ass programmers to exist, we often lack basic business and social skills. So a week into the project we might decide that we gave a price to low or are not capable of completing the project so we'll just go poof, vanish and disappear! So be sure to always maintain communication and pay after work is completed or use an escrow service.
- We really don't care about your deadlines.
- A few of our family members may get sick and die - multiple times. Being a programmer is an EXTREMELY dangerous job for everyone involved so keep that in mind.
- We're big procrastinators, going back to number 1 we think we're king shit and the fucking best, so for a 8 week project we may think we can get by and bullshit the first 6 weeks and get everything done in the last 2, at which point family members begin getting sick and suddenly dying ;). So be sure to keep an constant eye on progress and demand daily/bidaily updates.
:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

RedShoe 02-15-2007 01:13 PM
http://bootybone.com/gfy/50a.gif

scouser 02-15-2007 01:13 PM
By the way interracialtoons - you make some good points.

datatank 02-15-2007 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matiz (Post 11922907)
Great idea, got a link?
http://www.odesk.com/tour

interracialtoons 02-15-2007 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowan (Post 11923002)
I'll have to admit that a recent custom job I did took longer than expected. In the end I probably undercharged the client for the work I did, but it was balanced out by the fact that he was waiting for so long.

I've accepted that I am not cut out for custom coding, so I've moved on.
Just move on to better clients that understand the process better.

It's like building something, you start out fine then discover a problem or conflict that creates other work so the deadline gets pushed back.
The job often is more complex than the original request would imply.

Better clients draw up detail specifications that allow for a better estimate of completion time and problems are exposed early just by reading the specs.

Poor specifications means poor estimate of completion and poor final compatibility.

Small people with shit business give poor specs and freak out over deadlines that are missed by a few days(mainly because of their own poor planning). The big boys plan on it happening, because they've been there and they know the final product is what they need more than any deadline.
And that's why they make the big bucks.

Chariott 02-15-2007 01:23 PM
Hey guys, I don't know why your workers disappeared, because it is very easy to refuse doing any job at the very beginning. Just describe me your the task, the time frame and your budget ofcourse and I will say is it possible to complete it on time or not. Moreover, I can give you a couple of lessons how to write good programs using any kind of crazy (smarty) templates for an extra charge, ofcourse :)

BitAudioVideo 02-15-2007 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by interracialtoons (Post 11922971)
And you don't see what is stupid about that do you?

Programmers give "estimated" completion times, one simple typo in a piece of executed code can delay a programming job at any time.

The reason Windows is fucked up is because it was "completed" "on time". :1orglaugh

You think you have a point about programmers yet the real point is that you didn't get your job done because of what you asked for. Think about that.

The programmer woud be happy to do your job in one day and fuck off for 4 days so why would they want to deliver the project late?

Bottom line: if you don't like/understand the nature of programming jobs then read a book and do it yourself. You'll have a new outlook on life after you deal with it yourself.
good programmers should be able to give an accurate completion time if the job is explained well. they need to be aware of what delays might come up and plan for them.

i would rather be told the job will take 10 days and be delivered in 7 than to be told it will take 5 days and have it delivered in 6. i have to plan my time around what a programmer tells me.

ive read the book, i can do it myself.. i have a pretty good idea of how much time a project needs when i hire someone to do it. i also realize that there may be a day or two at the end of the project added for testing and modifications.

what bothers me the most is when a guy says "ill have it done in 5 days" and on the 5th day he/she is nowhere to be found. the least they can do is shoot me an email... "hey i expected to be done today.. im close.. i cant get blahblahblah working exactly how you wanted it yet... i need 6-8 hours to resolve it" instead they show up 3 days later with some lame excuse.

ive got a fulltime webdev guy now and i aint letting him out of the basement, i just throw down some food and mountain dew every so often.

Chariott 02-15-2007 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BitAudioVideo (Post 11923123)
ive got a fulltime webdev guy now and i aint letting him out of the basement, i just throw down some food and mountain dew every so often.
Holy cow! Sounds like a slavery! Bugaga.

interracialtoons 02-15-2007 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BitAudioVideo (Post 11923123)
they need to be aware of what delays might come up and plan for them.
Well, that is exactly the part that will never be known.

A programmer can plan on a bug being in the program but no way to predict how long it takes to find the bug and fix it. If this were possible, microsoft would announce today that all windows/IE bugs will be fixed by April 20XX.


If the programmer didn't communicate with you then you have a right to complain, but you shouldn't freak out about a delay here and there.
That's just business no matter what you are doing.

Nysus 02-15-2007 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by interracialtoons (Post 11923167)
Well, that is exactly the part that will never be known.

A programmer can plan on a bug being in the program but no way to predict how long it takes to find the bug and fix it. If this were possible, microsoft would announce today that all windows/IE bugs will be fixed by April 20XX.


If the programmer didn't communicate with you then you have a right to complain, but you shouldn't freak out about a delay here and there.
That's just business no matter what you are doing.
The way of getting a quote and timeframe is that you explain what you want in as much detail as possible, and then the programmer should go through the whole scripting process mentally and ask any questions where two or more possible options exist. For myself, they had done this, then they give a time, and then disappear, etc.. I'm not saying they flaked because they took an extra day or two, I'm saying they flaked because the either didn't start or in older cases they half-finished and gave up; I learned to not pay half though even upfront now. I have another project that I was quoted 6 days on but because of the person's personal circumstances that they needed to deal with they needed to delay it being finished by two days; I didn't care, I was happy that they told me instead of just disappearing; if I absolutely needed it done within the deadlne and they couldn't reach it (not because of additional things being added) then I could then at least go to someone else, assuming they were developing on my server.


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